The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Truthnightmare]

The AMill belief is a contradiction of reality.
The reality is that Satan is still prowling around and deceiving many. The Millennium will commence when visibly Returns and imprisons Satan. It will end with Satans release, then the final Judgment and then- Eternity.

What makes you think Satan is “prowling” around?

 

[Keraz]

What makes you think Satan is “prowling” around?

1 Peter 5:8-9
And the reality of our overflowing prisons. Plus wars, lawlessness and the rejection of God by the majority/

 

[Truthnightmare]

1 Peter 5:8-9
And the reality of our overflowing prisons. Plus wars, lawlessness and the rejection of God by the majority/

Is it not just the spirit of Satan that roams, it seems Satan is incarcerated at the moment.

 

[PinSeeker]

What makes you think Satan is “prowling” around?

He "prowls" according to Peter in 1 Peter 5:8-9. What Peter means by that is that, although Satan is able to exert influence in many ways on individuals, tempting us to sin and even trying to deceive us, we should "resist him" by "(h)umbl(ing) (ourselves) under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time He may exalt (us), casting all (our) anxieties on Him" and to "(b)e sober-minded (and) watchful." It is intimately similar to what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 12, to "lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely" and to then "run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus"... and to what Paul says in Ephesians 6, that we should "(p)ut on the whole armor of God, that (we) may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil."

What Peter says in 1 Peter 5 does not mean that he is not bound and sealed from "deceiving the nations," as John puts it in Revelation 20; Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent the spread of the Gospel to all nations. Preventing the spread of the Gospel to the nations is what, at present, Satan is bound and sealed from doing. But once God's Israel is completed and consisting of all God's elect (which includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation), then he will be "loosed" for a short time.

Grace and peace to you TN.

 

[Truthnightmare]

He "prowls" according to Peter in 1 Peter 5:8-9. What Peter means by that is that, although Satan is able to exert influence in many ways on individuals, tempting us to sin and even trying to deceive us, we should "resist him" by "(h)umbl(ing) (ourselves) under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time He may exalt (us), casting all (our) anxieties on Him" and to "(b)e sober-minded (and) watchful." It is intimately similar to what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 12, to "lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely" and to then "run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus"... and to what Paul says in Ephesians 6, that we should "(p)ut on the whole armor of God, that (we) may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil."

What Peter says in 1 Peter 5 does not mean that he is not bound and sealed from "deceiving the nations," as John puts it in Revelation 20; Satan can do absolutely nothing to prevent the spread of the Gospel to all nations. Preventing the spread of the Gospel to the nations is what, at present, Satan is bound and sealed from doing. But once God's Israel is completed and consisting of all God's elect (which includes people of every tongue, tribe, and nation), then he will be "loosed" for a short time.

Grace and peace to you TN.

Greetings Pinseeker,

I will elaborate more as soon as I get a moment of free time.

May I ask, how do you incorporate this into your thinking.

Rev 12 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[PinSeeker]

Greetings Pinseeker,

I will elaborate more as soon as I get a moment of free time.

May I ask, how do you incorporate this into your thinking.

Rev 12 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Not really sure what you mean by "incorporating it into my thinking"... Do you mean to ask what I think about Revelation 12 in general, or specifically about Revelation 12:7-12, or how it fits with the rest of John's Revelation, or fitting it into a timeline of events, or...? I'll just kind of answer all these questions... :) As briefly as I can...

Regarding Revelation as a whole, here is an outline of the book (notice particularly the bolded part and the underlined part, referred to particularly in the comment below):

I. Prologue 1:1-3​

II. Greeting 1:4-5a​

III. Body 1:5b-22:20​

A. Thanksgiving 1:5b-8​

B. Main part 1:9-22:6​

1. What you have seen 1:9-20​

2. What is 2:1-3:22​

3. What is to be 4:1-22:5​

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

C. Final instructions and exhortations 22:6-20​

IV. Closing salutation 22:21​

The cycles parallel one another. All cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. The later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself.

Now, regarding Cycle 3 (Revelation 12:1-14:20) above specifically, it breaks out this way:

Cycle 3: 7 symbolic histories 12:1-14:20​

a. Scene: two poles; the woman and the dragon 12:1-6​

b. 6 symbolic histories 12:7-14:11​

(1) The dragon’s history 12:7-12​

(2) The woman’s history 12:13-17​

(3) The (sea) beast 13:1-10​

(4) The earth beast or false prophet 13:11-18​

(5) The 144,000 14:1-5​

(6) The angelic proclaimers 14:6-11​

c. Promise for the saints 14:12-13​

d. 7th symbolic history: the harvest of the Son of Man 14:14-20​

Regarding Revelation 12:7-12 specifically, I will say that what we see is that the victory of Christ results in sweeping consequences, beginning with the expulsion of Satan by Michael, who is functioning as an agent of Christ. What we see is the defeat of Satan in the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Satan's abilities are curtailed through Christ’s earthly ministry and above all through Christ’s resurrection and ascension. Satan’s chief weapon is his deceit. He tries to confuse the church with heresies as well as accusing people before God for their sins. The voice of heavenly worshipers celebrates the fact that Christ has already achieved the decisive victory. Satan has been defeated. Again, his ability to accuse is curtailed. The salvation and kingdom of God have already come. However, strife still continues for a short time on earth. The time of fulfillment of God’s purposes has arrived, and this fulfillment unfolds in a way that stretches out toward the consummation. Victory has both a present and a future manifestation.

I don't know if this is really the question or not, but Satan is currently bound, which is displayed here and in other parts of Revelation, including Revelation 20:1-6, in the present millennium.

So... So there. :)

Grace and peace to you, Truthnightmare.

 

[Keraz]

I don't know if this is really the question or not, but Satan is currently bound,

Not bound or imprisoned, but restrained only.
That restraint will be removed and he will be revealed as the man of sin, the wicked one, who will have world control for 42 months. 2 Thess 2:3-12, Revelation 13:5

 

[PinSeeker]

Not bound or imprisoned, but restrained only.
That restraint will be removed and he will be revealed as the man of sin, the wicked one, who will have world control for 42 months. 2 Thess 2:3-12, Revelation 13:5

Well, we don't completely disagree... :)

Satan is "bound" and "sealed in a pit" and thus unable to deceive the nations, which is exactly what Revelation 20:1-3 says. Before Jesus, he was able to deceive the nations, which means to prevent the spread of the Gospel beyond the nation of Israel ~ which never was and never will be actually a land mass but rather a people, and will one day number as the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashore (various passages of Genesis; God's promise to [covenant with] Abraham) and cover the true Promised Land, which is the whole earth. As Jesus says, the meek shall inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5). But yes, when Israel has been brought to completion, Satan will be loosed, as I said, for a short time ~ of which we do not know the actual length, but will be cut short for the sake of the elect (Matthew 24:22; Mark 13:20).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Well we don’t completely disagree…

However, I don’t see such parallels you allude to.

The Seventh Trump​

Rev 11:15-19
15 And the seventh angel sounded [7th Trump] ; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. KJV​

You notice that there is no Second Advent yet. The above is the end of the 11th chapter. Chapters 12-15 are parenthetical, and are not a continuation of the above chronology. Then chapter 16 picks up at the first Vial:
The First Vial​

Rev 16 [complete chapter]
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial [1st Vial] upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. KJV​

And for all that, still no Second Advent yet. Then chapters 17-18 are parenthetical. And then in the 19th chapter we come to the Second Advent.
The literal Second Advent of the Messiah Jesus Christ:​

Rev 19:11-21
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him [to Earth; i.e., the 2nd Advent] upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. KJV​

I know that many teach that the Seals, Trumps, and Vials are all the same events spoken of differently (parallel) i.e., 1st Seal, 1st Trump, 1st Vial, THEN, 2nd Seal, 2nd Trump, 2nd Vial, etc. through all seven). However, that this is in inaccurate interpretation is seen plainly in the fact that in the very First Vial men on Earth have already taken the mark of the beast, when this mark is not offered until later in the Tribulation, certainly not on day one. and the image referred to isn't set-up until Revelation chapter 13, well into the Tribulation timeline (the First event of the three sevens is Seal #1, and that happens at Revelation chapter 6). The chronological order is Seals, then Trumps, then Vials. Observe:
First Vial:
(Mark of the beast already administered, and now punished)​

Rev 16:2
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial [1st Vial] upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.​

For comparison, compare the events in the First Seal and First Trump:
First Seal:
(The Tribulation begins)​

Rev 6:1-3a
1 And I saw when the Lamb [Jesus] opened one of the seals [the 1st Seal] , and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3 And when he had opened the second seal.... KJV​

​

 

[Truthnightmare]

First trump:
(Still no mark of the beast)​

Rev 8:7
7 The first angel sounded [the 1st Trump], and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. KJV​

Therefore, these seven events in each of the three sets (Seals, Trumps, and Vials [of wrath]) cannot be one in the same seven events.
Helpful as well would be to observe the transition from the Seventh Seal to the First Trump. (Remember, The chronological order is Seals, then Trumps, then Vials.):​

Rev 8:1-7
8 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded [the 1st Trump], and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. KJV​

Wanted to share a bit of my perspective with you..

 

[PinSeeker]

Well we don’t completely disagree…

Seems to me maybe we agree more than you think we do. At least on first glance...

However, I don’t see such parallels you allude to.

Fair enough.

...not a continuation of the above chronology.

Agree. I didn't insinuate that.

I know that many teach that the Seals, Trumps, and Vials are all the same events spoken of differently (parallel) i.e., 1st Seal, 1st Trump, 1st Vial, THEN, 2nd Seal, 2nd Trump, 2nd Vial, etc. through all seven).

Well that's not accurate. Not to say that what you say is not true; there may be some who say strictly that "the first is to the first is to the first," and "the second is to the second is to the second," and so on, but it's not that one-to-one, so to speak. I did say that the cycles parallel one another, and that all cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming, and that each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. But to take the concurrency and parallelism to that extreme is... well, going a little overboard. :) I guess I would just say that if there are some who teach what you say here, I think the are... overly strident. Maybe a good simile would be crossing over into hyper-Calvinism rather than remaining in the Historical Calvinism camp (understanding Scripture, and specifically soteriology and God's sovereignty, as John Calvin ~ and Augustine centuries before him ~ actually did). But back to the point, as I said, the later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. So the kind of parallelism you're referring to here is... over the top, and not correct.

Wanted to share a bit of my perspective with you..​

Sure. Much appreciated. But I think you understood my comments to be... well, something different than they were.

Grace and peace to you, Truthnightmare.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Seems to me maybe we agree more than you think we do. At least on first glance...


Fair enough.


Agree. I didn't insinuate that.


Well that's not accurate. Not to say that what you say is not true; there may be some who say strictly that "the first is to the first is to the first," and "the second is to the second is to the second," and so on, but it's not that one-to-one, so to speak. I did say that the cycles parallel one another, and that all cover the same period leading up to the Second Coming, and that each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. But to take the concurrency and parallelism to that extreme is... well, going a little overboard. :) I guess I would just say that if there are some who teach what you say here, I think the are... overly strident. Maybe a good simile would be crossing over into hyper-Calvinism rather than remaining in the Historical Calvinism camp (understanding Scripture, and specifically soteriology and God's sovereignty, as John Calvin ~ and Augustine centuries before him ~ actually did). But back to the point, as I said, the later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. So the kind of parallelism you're referring to here is... over the top, and not correct.


Sure. Much appreciated. But I think you understood my comments to be... well, something different than they were.

Grace and peace to you, Truthnightmare.

I didn’t have enough time to pinpoint your specifics, but I figured this would suffice for an overview… and I do understand your premise concerning the aforementioned.

I do appreciate your approach, when speaking with people as yourself, the disagreements I most often have is based in what happen from Genesis 1 to 6. Perhaps a thread will be started in this regard.

Have a good one.

 

[PinSeeker]

...when speaking with people as yourself, the disagreements I most often have is based in what happen from Genesis 1 to 6.

Interesting. I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding this.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Interesting. I would be interested to hear your thoughts regarding this.

Grace and peace to you.

There was an age before this one, all men did not come from Adam, Eve didn’t eat literal fruit. These beliefs automatically set me on a different course of understanding then the traditional Christian, which is fine. However; many times, start wrong end wrong.

 

[Timtofly]

There was an age before this one, all men did not come from Adam, Eve didn’t eat literal fruit. These beliefs automatically set me on a different course of understanding then the traditional Christian, which is fine. However; many times, start wrong end wrong.

Did you mean to say Adam and Eve were not the only two beings created on day 6? Eve was not created nor even around on day 6.

Yes there was a literal tree and literal fruit. Were all trees and fruit symbolic until after the Flood?

 

[Truthnightmare]

Did you mean to say Adam and Eve were not the only two beings created on day 6? Eve was not created nor even around on day 6.

Yes there was a literal tree and literal fruit. Were all trees and fruit symbolic until after the Flood?

I do not believe Adam and Eve were created on day 6.
I believe there were literal trees and symbolic trees.

 

[Hobie]

Is it not just the spirit of Satan that roams, it seems Satan is incarcerated at the moment.

I dont think he is being held back with all the evidence we see out there today..

 

[Truthnightmare]

I dont think he is being held back with all the evidence we see out there today..

Yea.. The world is pretty screwed up… but we see in Revelation

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[PinSeeker]

There was an age before this one, all men did not come from Adam, Eve didn’t eat literal fruit. These beliefs automatically set me on a different course of understanding then the traditional Christian, which is fine. However; many times, start wrong end wrong.

Hm. Alrighty, then, :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Keraz]

Yea.. The world is pretty screwed up… but we see in Revelation

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

But, more to the point: we see in Matthew 4:1-12 that Satan has control of all the kingdoms of the world.
Ever since Adam, Satan has had access to heaven and earth. Revelation 12:9 tells us when he lose's his place in heaven.