The 144,000 before God at the end.

[David in NJ]

Another weak argument I've heard for years! As if! Let you who think you stand take heed lest you fall. That's for you also!

This is an argument based on a sense of superiority and a small faith. Or do you suppose you have no error in your understandings? Or do you suppose that God will guard you in your error and not me in mine?

But through all of this while you do not argue with valid assertions, only casting aspersions on others, I've given you solid Scripture which you will not even begin to address.

I don't mind reading your posts when you have something to say, but please don't bother tagging me on vague accusatory posts like this, with poor argumentation that I'm in grave danger of damnation for being so horribly wrong.

And please don't bother with some accusation of how offended I must be. I'm trying to metacommunicate with you, with my goal an improvement in our dialog.

Much love!

@marks,
i never said you are in grave danger of damnation

John chapter 3 is crystal clear, yet you argue against "it is written" = the Bride and the Bridegroom

Here is the evidence of such you dispute simply because it exposes pre-trib rapture as falsehood.

The Bride of Christ

This Thread is for identifying from Scripture who the Bride of Christ is. The Bride of Christ are the Disciples of Christ = John 3:25-29 Then there arose a dispute between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purification. And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[David in NJ]

It's like you are just flailing away at this point, I think after this you will be on my ignore, it shouldn't continue.

Behold, the Lamb of God, who carries away the sin of the world. That's Bible. Jesus did that. However that doesn't mean forgiveness does you any good unless you believe Him and receive it.

You twist my understanding of the Bible to make me look bad, and that's not a good thing.

Much love!

Calm down Brother marks,

Post 817 was not directed at you in any way and was a response to @amigo de christo

The "they" would be people who are abusing the Scriptures for a One World Religion.

 

[David in NJ]

@marks,

i have to get up early and so i am signing out = Good Night Brother

 

[The Light]

Paul said the rapture is to the clouds, not to the third heaven.

It is to the clouds. And then of course we can see them in heaven for the marriage supper.

 

[marks]

It is to the clouds. And then of course we can see them in heaven for the marriage supper.

I think he said, we will be caught up together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. When I was looking at that one time, it seemed to me it could mean either going up into clouds, or it could mean clouds of us going up. I'd have to repeat the research. Maybe I've got it written down somewhere, that was some time ago.

Have you considered that the marriage supper could be on earth? I think the east/west designation shows that, many come from the east and west. Which would go along with the Lamb remarrying Israel as promised in Hosea I think it is.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

I have one question for you and do answer my friend .
IF and i do mean IF , the world were to say we must take some kind of chip or tattoe
WOULD YOU TAKE IT JUST cause the rapture has not yet occured . WOULD YOU Try and convince yourself
it must be okay cause if it were the mark we would already have been raptured . Just please at least answer that .

God put a mark on Cain. Pretty sure it will be God handing out the mark, not any other entity.

The mark is God's indication He has removed you from the Lamb's book of life. That is what Satan is hoping that many will choose him over God. The reward for rejecting God is free participation in Satan's economy.

Think about it. God puts His name on His people, and then puts a mark on those not His people. Those beheaded people have no mark nor seal. They chose chopping their head off as their testimony to God.

Post trib adherents are going to choose beteeen the mark or loosing their head, as that is their final choice. Then they are resurrected, stand before thrones of judgment, and then live out their lives on earth. At least they are hoping it turns out that way. If they are deceived by Satan, and God cancels those 42 months, then it is the winepress of God's wrath as their final choice. Unfortunately those who are saved won't be post trib after the 6th Seal, they will be raptured despite their false notion it will not happen.

I still am not sure why most refuse to see the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders as being the GT, that they claim they will all be busy finding food and shelter during, as they won't be called for judgment for quite some time. It is not like they will have anything after everything is burned up at the 6th Seal. I guess post trib people miss the point every thing is burned up at the 6th Seal. They miss the point all the mountains and continents are going to be moved around as well.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

How many times will the heavens loose all the stars and everything on earth is burned up? Now you know why it is the greatest tribulation ever. People will literally have less than those people who drowned in the Flood. Those in the Flood died with their bellies full. Those at the 6th Seal will not die, but will have nothing until Satan comes along and offers them something for rejecting God.

Why are people looking for an AC, when the point is that there will be nothing for any one at the Second Coming. When Satan steps up and offers people what God just took away from everyone, that is when they will marvel at the government brought back to life giving aid and mercy to those deceieved by Satan. That is why there will be false christs everywhere offering people hope. The only trouble the church faces is during the first four Seals being opened. That is the tribulation of those days. We have yet to face wars, plagues, death, and wild animals killing a quarter of the earth's population. That is as post tribulation as it gets. We are post the trouble the church has seen with thousands of martyrs throughout history. Yet some are still beheaded today. Why does no one compare the tribulation of the last 1993 years with the coming final harvest where all 8+ billion people on earth have to physically die to shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh? Thousands have been martyred, for sure. But 8 billion people all killed in a relatively short time span is not your post trib experience you all are hoping for. The whole point of Jacob's trouble is the removel of Adam's dead corruptible flesh from off the earth. Jesus and the angels are on earth for that very reason, the final harvest. Matthew 13 and Matthew 25. And if there are any gleanings, only then will Satan have 42 months to implement his kingdom along with the mark people are wrongly understanding.

That is how Revelation unfolds without the hundreds of reasons why Revelation is not chronological.

 

[The Light]

No, that interpretation is incorrect. The seals are no different than previous descriptions of the same end times events such as in the OD Matthew 24. They are described, but do not happen yet.

When the seals are opened the events happen. It's simple. What's the confusion?

Yet the text does not show him going anywhere. He remained in heaven with the scroll to opened the 7th seal proving no second coming took place when the 6th was opened. You ignore this fact in favor of the beliefs you have.

What are you talking about.......ignoring the facts. I am following the facts. Here is Jesus in the clouds for the harvest at the 6th seal.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is those raptured from the earth at the 6th seal in heaven before the throne. You should be able to figure out why they are singing the song of Moses.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Here is the great multitude in heaven after the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So the facts say that Christ returns to heaven as evidenced by the great multitude before the throne.

That also goes against the text of the bible which says the wrath begins at the 7th trump not ends there. You aren't going by what the text says.

Why are you unable to understand that WHEN THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR lORD.......wrath is OVER?

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

It is the time of judgement.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

You need an understanding of WHAT YOU ARE READING.

No, wrath starts. I've quoted it to you many times. You never accept it.

You are not paying attention to what you are reading. You pick up on the words "wrath is come" without understanding anything else. Read with understanding.

Read this.

Revelation 10
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What does it say????????

 

[ewq1938]

When the seals are opened the events happen. It's simple. What's the confusion?

That is the confusion right there. They are not events happening. They are visions of events that will later happen.

Here is the great multitude in heaven after the gathering from heaven and earth at the 6th seal.

You keep saying gathering at the 6th seal but not one word in the 6th seal mentions this gathering. Care to quote from the 6th seal?

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

So the facts say that Christ returns to heaven as evidenced by the great multitude before the throne.

That is a different timeframe. Rev is not chronological. It skips around.

Why are you unable to understand that WHEN THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR lORD.......wrath is OVER?

Because it isn't. Wrath comes AFTER that in the vials.

You are not paying attention to what you are reading. You pick up on the words "wrath is come" without understanding anything else. Read with understanding.

LOL, you are the one who sees "wrath is come" and think wrath is over! Did you know over and come don't have the same meanings? YOU are not paying attention to what you are reading.

 

[The Light]

That is the confusion right there. They are not events happening. They are visions of events that will later happen.

Yeah. Later happen when the seals are opened. WHEN THE SEALS OPEN THE EVENTS WILL HAPPEN. How can you possibly be confused.
It's the same as the trumpets. After the 7th seal is opened the trumpets will sound. At the sounding of each trumpet, the event will happen. So simple and yet you deny the event because you claim its in the future. WELL YEAH. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, it says all types take it not all people as in everyone. The 144k, the two prophets and the survivors of the trib don't take the mark.

Bible=all
You= about 10 people running from cave to cave to escape what 99.9 % of martyrs did not escape.
Yep you will hide to ESCAPE martyrdom
Oh the irony.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Postribbers are escapists.
they think that they will be present during the Great Tribulation and even after all the Wrath, and somehow when Jesus comes on the white horses, I suppose they will jump on some riderless horse and come back, like do a U-turn, come back to earth but the only way that they see in their mind to survive till the end is to run from cave to Cave to escape.
they see themselves as escapists.
Now that is comical

 

[ewq1938]

Bible=all

The bible does not say literally all people take the mark or there would be none who could be changed to immortal and raptured.

 

[ewq1938]

Postribbers are escapists.

No, that is Pretrib in the false physical escape before the GT begins. Enjoy taking part in apostasia!

 

[rebuilder 454]

The bible does not say literally all people take the mark or there would be none who could be changed to immortal and raptured.

Bingo
You just caught on.
Your doctrine REQUIRES a change in Gods word.
Yes indeed .
You are correct for once!!!
There is no postrib rapture because you either take the mark or die.
It is plain and vivid.
We see the martyrs in rev early on DURING THE TRIB. IN HEAVEN
IN HEAVEN!!!
So many they can not be counted.
How do you change that honestly????
But you must change it.
Then in rev 15 ( or so) it says the MARTYRS overcame the AC!!!
That is your only hope , correct?
Your only hope to get to the 2nd coming on horses correct?
Well THE BIBLE says otherwise.
THE BIBLE says they OVERCAME VIA MARTYRDOM.
Clearly and is eternally canonized.
"...they overcame the ac by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death"

Game
Set
Match.
All believers martyred early on in the trib.
Only pretrib fits.
Every setting of rapture verses is pretrib, life as usual, normal life.
No such thing as a postrib rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

you either take the mark or die.

That isn't in the bible. The MOB can be refused and will be, without a death.

 

[Timtofly]

The fallacies of the futurized fantasies of dispensational delusionism are a diametric contrast to the wisdom, faith, vision, and sacrifice of the historical true Church, of which we are all beneficiaries.

Tribulation exposes rapture wimps.

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


God has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

Is your point that the rapture did not happen prior to Pentacost? Is that the pre-trib position you are disagreeing with?

Do you not understand the tribulation prior to the rapture, and the tribulation after the rapture?

The church is not Jacob. You know that other "Israel" some one "created" and you are so fond of flaunting around? The Second Coming is prior to Jacob's trouble. No Amil that I have ever seen are going to accept when the Second Coming happens. They don't even recognize the truth of God's Word that Jesus will be the King of the earth for a thousand years. They will claim Revelation is not chronological.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, that is Pretrib in the false physical escape before the GT begins. Enjoy taking part in apostasia!

Postribbers belive they will escape the stalking and capture of the AC.
They are escapists
Oh the irony!

 

[rebuilder 454]

That isn't in the bible. The MOB can be refused and will be, without a death.

Nope.
The bible says they overcame the AC and the mark via martyrdom.
Bible = take it or die
You = bible not true

 

[rebuilder 454]

Paul said the rapture is to the clouds, not to the third heaven.

Then straight to the wedding room.
Heaven
Mat 25.
Bible fact
Solid

 

[Timtofly]

Feel free to let me know, in my posts, when and where i add or take away from God's words.

When you say 'pre-trib' rapture = you just added to God's words what HE never said.

the LORD Jesus Christ said 'post-trib' = Matthew ch24

the Prophets said 'post-trib' = Genesis, OT Daniel, Isaiah, Zechariah and more

the Apostles said 'post-trib' rapture = John , Paul , Peter

The rapture is at the end of the 1993+ years long tribulation period. The church has always had tribulation. That is the tribulation of those days. That is not the tribulation you claim. You claim Jacob's tribulation is prior to the rapture/Second Coming. That is you adding your words/thoughts to Scripture. Some modern translations add their opinions to the style Matthew used. Luke used a different style of writing. Many get the two authors tangled up to present a private interpretation of the Olivet Discourse.

You keep throwing names out there without a single verse to make your point. How are we to read your mind? John never used the term rapture, unless you can show the verse. John was writing to 7 first century churches. He gave us the worse case scenario, and the effects of the Second Coming. All seen before the first Trumpet even sounded. Jesus never used the term rapture. Seems you claim stuff you allege was in their minds, but never made it into the Bible.

Jesus' exact words was that the second coming was after the tribulation of those days. Jesus did not say after the time of Jacob's trouble. John points out the order of the events, because he was a witness to them, not just because he was writing down the Olivet Discourse. John claims there is tribulation for the church, but not the same tribulation the 144k will face. No one is denying tribulation nor whining nor being wimpy to escape tribulation. We are pointing out the distinction clearly made between Jacob on the earth, and the called out assembly of the last 6,000 years in Paradise. Some here use symbolic terms to explain that difference; two brides, marriage, and marriage suppers. Can you state the distinctions? The church coming to earth after the Millennium is still a bride. That wedding has not happened yet, has it? The Lamb is on the earth waiting for the bride to join Him, no? Please explain where Jesus has left the earth during the Millennium.

Please explain why John is not referring to angels when he uses the term star throughout the book of Revelation without exception. John states the stars all come to earth at the 6th Seal. How is that not the same event that Jesus is referring to when He comes with all His angels? How many times will heaven dissolve and roll back as a scroll? So don't be going around changing up how John wrote things down to fit your thesis as if you are reading people's minds instead of actual Scripture.

Here is something not written in the book, but could be noted by implication. 3.5 days into the week of the 7th Trumpet, Jesus and the 144k ride off on white horses to heavenly mount zion, and wait 42 months. Then return at Armageddon on those same white horses. The implication is that those white horses come with that new Temple and throne in Jerusalem in preparation for the entire Day of the Lord, the Millennial Kingdom. Now we see them mentioned only one time, yet why would they not have been given white horses when they were sealed? Would it not make sense that they had a means of transportation, instead of walking around all the time? It does not state they use them throughout the Millennium, but is implied that it is not just a symbolic elevator called a white horse. The camp of the saints, white horses, the 144k go every where Jesus goes, whether heaven or earth. Certainly this point is implied, as much as the term AC. John never uses the term AC, yet many posters insert it where they see fit. If Revelation 19 is the Second Coming it contradicts other Scripture. Certainly no one is left alive at that point. How will those living be judged per Matthew 25 in Revelation 19? Billions are still alive at the 6th Seal, which is the Second Coming. We could pretend that there is no tribulation period during the Trumpets, Thunders, and Abomination of Desolation implied in Revelation 13, 17, and 18.