The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

You know that other "Israel" some one "created" and you are so fond of flaunting around?

Link to the post wherein someone created that other Israel.

 

[Timtofly]

Revelation repeats the Second Coming in the 6th Seal and in the 7th Trumpet and in chapter 19.

Reveltion is a FLUID REVEALING, NOT a strict chronology, but a revealing of the Alpha & Omega and His Second Coming.
Including what MUST take place BEFORE His Second Coming = 7 churches, PERSECUTION, ANTICHRIST, ENDURANCE.

Says who? Amil stake that claim. They deny the Millennium Kingdom. There is only lighter fluid in the book, as everything is burned up at the Second Coming. Nothing is burned up in Revelation 19. Only Adam's dead flesh consumed by the fowls of the air.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Jesus was already on the earth from the 6th Seal, until Satan's 42 months. During those 42 months, Jesus and the 144k are waiting on that heavenly mount Zion. Then in Revelation 19 they return after the 42 months are over. The 144k are not currently waiting for the 6th Seal to be opened. The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal, prior to the opening of the 7th Seal.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Says who? Amil stake that claim. They deny the Millennium Kingdom.

Obviously, you have no clues on the biblical doctrine of Amillennialism.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Jesus was already on the earth from the 6th Seal, until Satan's 42 months. During those 42 months, Jesus and the 144k are waiting on that heavenly mount Zion. Then in Revelation 19 they return after the 42 months are over. The 144k are not currently waiting for the 6th Seal to be opened. The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal, prior to the opening of the 7th Seal.

Huh. You do not make any senses. You are really lost within the Book of Revelation.

 

[David in NJ]

The rapture is at the end of the 1993+ years long tribulation period. The church has always had tribulation. That is the tribulation of those days. That is not the tribulation you claim. You claim Jacob's tribulation is prior to the rapture/Second Coming. That is you adding your words/thoughts to Scripture. Some modern translations add their opinions to the style Matthew used. Luke used a different style of writing. Many get the two authors tangled up to present a private interpretation of the Olivet Discourse.

You keep throwing names out there without a single verse to make your point. How are we to read your mind? John never used the term rapture, unless you can show the verse. John was writing to 7 first century churches. He gave us the worse case scenario, and the effects of the Second Coming. All seen before the first Trumpet even sounded. Jesus never used the term rapture. Seems you claim stuff you allege was in their minds, but never made it into the Bible.

Jesus' exact words was that the second coming was after the tribulation of those days. Jesus did not say after the time of Jacob's trouble. John points out the order of the events, because he was a witness to them, not just because he was writing down the Olivet Discourse. John claims there is tribulation for the church, but not the same tribulation the 144k will face. No one is denying tribulation nor whining nor being wimpy to escape tribulation. We are pointing out the distinction clearly made between Jacob on the earth, and the called out assembly of the last 6,000 years in Paradise. Some here use symbolic terms to explain that difference; two brides, marriage, and marriage suppers. Can you state the distinctions? The church coming to earth after the Millennium is still a bride. That wedding has not happened yet, has it? The Lamb is on the earth waiting for the bride to join Him, no? Please explain where Jesus has left the earth during the Millennium.

Please explain why John is not referring to angels when he uses the term star throughout the book of Revelation without exception. John states the stars all come to earth at the 6th Seal. How is that not the same event that Jesus is referring to when He comes with all His angels? How many times will heaven dissolve and roll back as a scroll? So don't be going around changing up how John wrote things down to fit your thesis as if you are reading people's minds instead of actual Scripture.

Here is something not written in the book, but could be noted by implication. 3.5 days into the week of the 7th Trumpet, Jesus and the 144k ride off on white horses to heavenly mount zion, and wait 42 months. Then return at Armageddon on those same white horses. The implication is that those white horses come with that new Temple and throne in Jerusalem in preparation for the entire Day of the Lord, the Millennial Kingdom. Now we see them mentioned only one time, yet why would they not have been given white horses when they were sealed? Would it not make sense that they had a means of transportation, instead of walking around all the time? It does not state they use them throughout the Millennium, but is implied that it is not just a symbolic elevator called a white horse. The camp of the saints, white horses, the 144k go every where Jesus goes, whether heaven or earth. Certainly this point is implied, as much as the term AC. John never uses the term AC, yet many posters insert it where they see fit. If Revelation 19 is the Second Coming it contradicts other Scripture. Certainly no one is left alive at that point. How will those living be judged per Matthew 25 in Revelation 19? Billions are still alive at the 6th Seal, which is the Second Coming. We could pretend that there is no tribulation period during the Trumpets, Thunders, and Abomination of Desolation implied in Revelation 13, 17, and 18.

@Timtofly says: "You claim Jacob's tribulation is prior to the rapture/Second Coming.
That is you adding your words/thoughts to Scripture."

WRONG = i never added my words/thoughts to scripture = SEE Daniel 12:1-3

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[David in NJ]

Says who? Amil stake that claim. They deny the Millennium Kingdom. There is only lighter fluid in the book, as everything is burned up at the Second Coming. Nothing is burned up in Revelation 19. Only Adam's dead flesh consumed by the fowls of the air.

Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Jesus was already on the earth from the 6th Seal, until Satan's 42 months. During those 42 months, Jesus and the 144k are waiting on that heavenly mount Zion. Then in Revelation 19 they return after the 42 months are over. The 144k are not currently waiting for the 6th Seal to be opened. The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal, prior to the opening of the 7th Seal.

There is no event or prophecy recorded in the Scriptures that says JESUS swoops down for a rapture and then goes back to Heaven and then back again for the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Come on man. THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT THAT I AM MAKING. They are two separate events. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is not the second advent. It is the second coming. Two separate events.

No you are not. The 6th Seal begins this second advent on the earth. The 144k are His disciples who goes everywhere Jesus goes on the earth up until the 7th Trumpet. That is the end of the tribulation adventure.

The Cross was not the start of the first coming. It was the finish point. The birth of Jesus was the first advent.

Jesus did not come as a baby, leave for 33 years and then returned for the Cross. That is how you interpret the second coming. You claim Jesus shows up at the 6th Seal, leaves and returns at the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. That is the final harvest carried out be Jesus and the angels.

Those 42 months in Revelation 13 do not even start until the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet.

There is either a winepress at that point of the week, or the winepress is put off until Armageddon. Jesus does not kill those same people twice. They are either killed by the end of that week of days, or 42 months later.

Jesus and the 144k wait on mount zion during those 42 months. And that winepress judgment is placed on hold, until they return at Armageddon.

The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal as firstfruits. They are on earth with Jesus until the 7th Trumpet. The Millennium will start that week, or be postponed 42 months.

If the Millennium starts right away, they are still on the earth when the Millennium starts. They don't go anywhere.

 

[The Light]

No you are not.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

The 6th Seal begins this second advent on the earth.

Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal. He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

The 144k are His disciples who goes everywhere Jesus goes on the earth up until the 7th Trumpet. That is the end of the tribulation adventure.

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth in the 1st four seals.

The Cross was not the start of the first coming. It was the finish point. The birth of Jesus was the first advent.

Jesus did not come as a baby, leave for 33 years and then returned for the Cross. That is how you interpret the second coming. You claim Jesus shows up at the 6th Seal, leaves and returns at the 7th Trumpet.

Jesus does show up at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins and Jesus returns at the end of the trumpets for Armageddon with the armies of heaven. The coming of Jesus at the 6th seal is MARKED by the signs of the the sun, moon and stars, just as the return of Jesus in Matthew 24 is marked by the same signs of the sun, moon and stars. Gee. It must be the same coming.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus is on the earth with the 144k during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.

If you had understanding you would realize that the 144,000 have been redeemed from the earth BEFORE the 5th seal.

Those 42 months in Revelation 13 do not even start until the midst of the week of days of the 7th Trumpet.

Dude. The wrath of God is OVER at the 7th trumpet. Christ has set up His kingdom on earth.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

There is either a winepress at that point of the week, or the winepress is put off until Armageddon. Jesus does not kill those same people twice. They are either killed by the end of that week of days, or 42 months later.

Not sure what you are talking about.

Jesus and the 144k wait on mount zion during those 42 months.

Strange that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth BEFORE the 5th seal

The 144k are sealed at the 6th Seal as firstfruits.

The 144,000 are sealed in the first four seals, probably the 1st seal.

They are on earth with Jesus until the 7th Trumpet.

They are OFF the earth BEFORE the 5th seal.

The Millennium will start that week, or be postponed 42 months.

If the Millennium starts right away, they are still on the earth when the Millennium starts. They don't go anywhere.

This is just something you have figured out using the wrong information.

 

[Timtofly]

All I can say is that you understand that the millennial kingdom starts at the 7th trumpet. If you see that you should be able to see that Revelation 13 and 14 occurs in the 1st four seals and Revelation 15 and 16 occurs in the 7th seal.

No, the Millennium cannot start until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast. Have you not read about Jericho? The angel keeps blaring the horn for days. The winepress is when that Trumpet stops sounding. Then the 70th week comes to an end, and the Millennial Kingdom starts.

Everyone is messed up on what Daniel 9:27 is saying. That is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, not just the end of the Atonement. There is no more sin and death in the Millennium. No one takes Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the Millennium.

If that is the case, you may just as well be post mill or amil. Jesus does not reign over Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is the whole point you are missing about the winepress. Adam comes to an end in the winepress.

 

[The Light]

That is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, No one takes Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the Millennium.

Jesus does not reign over Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Stop saying this. It originates from a cult.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, the Millennium cannot start until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

Wrong.

The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast.

Who told you? Show us the Scripture where God has specifically told you how the trumpet sounds. One short blast? Long blast? Repeat blasting?

Have you not read about Jericho? The angel keeps blaring the horn for days

Huh? Angel for days? Where do you read that in Scripture?

Jos 6:4-5
(4) And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
(5) And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.

. The winepress is when that Trumpet stops sounding. Then the 70th week comes to an end, and the Millennial Kingdom starts.

That is not what Scripture says. That is speculation and (bad) private interpreation.

Everyone is messed up on what Daniel 9:27 is saying.

Try me. :-)

That is the end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, not just the end of the Atonement. There is no more sin and death in the Millennium. No one takes Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the Millennium.

Huh? What the heck are you talking about?! Why are you making stuff up? Don't you know how to quote Scripture to back up your nonsense?

If that is the case, you may just as well be post mill or amil. Jesus does not reign over Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is the whole point you are missing about the winepress. Adam comes to an end in the winepress.

You do not make any sense at all. This shows that you lack knowledge in the Bible because all you do is make speculations. Someone who does this is not a good bible student.

 

[ewq1938]

Then straight to the wedding room.
Heaven
Mat 25.
Bible fact
Solid

There are no scriptures showing Christ returning to heaven once he leaves. Once the raptured saints meet in the clouds, Christ will continue down where he will be seen in the air, especially at Armageddon.

 

[ewq1938]

Bible = take it or die

The bible doesn't say that which is why you don't have a scripture saying it.

 

[ewq1938]

Postribbers belive they will escape the stalking and capture of the AC.

That's what Pretribbers believe. Posttribbers believe most will be captured and killed by the AC. You need to learn more about the doctrine.

 

[Timtofly]

The bible does not say literally all people take the mark or there would be none who could be changed to immortal and raptured.

Exactly. The rapture already happened at the 5th Seal. Being glorified happened at the 5th Seal after the tribulation of those days, the first 4 Seals being opened. The 6th Seal is Zechariah 14 when Jesus stands on the mount of Olives.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest of the sheep and wheat, the firstfruits of Israel and all nations who live in the Millennium. The sea of glass is where they wait for 42 months until Satan is done with his short lived empire. It is during those last 42 months that the AoD is brought to life, and people are spiritually marked by God so all can see the mark. Those who are beheaded do so to avoid the mark. Their testimony to God is chopping their head off. That is how those post trib people escape the mark. They have their head chopped off. That is the decision to be made: beheaded and later resurrected, or take the mark. All decisions final, not take backs. No getting rid of the mark, once removed from the Lamb's book of life. No putting one's head back on to take the mark so one can be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

 

[Timtofly]

Link to the post wherein someone created that other Israel.

It certainly was not created in this forum. It is accepted that there are 2 Israels by many posters, including yourself.

Thanks for avoiding giving any answers.

 

[Timtofly]

Obviously, you have no clues on the biblical doctrine of Amillennialism.



Huh. You do not make any senses. You are really lost within the Book of Revelation.

And you did not post your understanding, so neither do you. You posted what others have taught you, and wrongly.

God's Word is nonsense to those steeped in human theology, especially that of accepted heresy crept into the church, by pagan theologians.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly says: "You claim Jacob's tribulation is prior to the rapture/Second Coming.
That is you adding your words/thoughts to Scripture."

WRONG = i never added my words/thoughts to scripture = SEE Daniel 12:1-3

“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

Yes, Daniel was given a vision of the entire Day of the Lord. The NT breaks that down into the Second Coming, the tribulation, the time of Satan's empire, and the 1,000 year Kingdom of Jesus Christ the King. So you are seeing through a glass darkly that not even Paul was clear on, by only quoting Daniel who was further away with a smaller telescope. You have seen the parable of a fig tree come back to life. Daniel was still 500 years before the Cross and the judgment of desolation on his people that Gabriel talked about.

So yes you claim the rapture needs to be added to Revelation 19, because that is where your human understanding puts that event.

Jesus says after the tribulation of those days. Not after the wrath of God is poured out with 7 vials. John clearly gives us 4 sets of 7's


Gabriel gave Daniel 70 sets of 7's.

Not even the same 7's.

So you see how the picture keeps getting clearer?

You want to blur the 4 sets of 7 given by John back into the generic 70 weeks given by Gabriel.

The 4 sets are:

7 Seals pertaining to the church.

7 Trumpets pertaining to Israel as a nation "born in a day".

7 Thunders pertaining to all the nations redeemed to enter the Millennium Kingdom as firstfruits.

Then 7 vials of wrath poured out on those with the mark.

Each set is the removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Just before those vials we have some beheaded souls. Even if just one, God in patience and longsuffering extended the end of time for that one soul to be beheaded. That more than one would choose to be redeemed by the worse possible means. But saved from the LOF and allowed a resurrection. That is not describing the church. That is describing God's patience and longsuffering to those who like all of us don't deserve salvation, but submitted their will to the testimony of Jesus Christ, they allowed their head to be chopped off. This is after the time of grace. This is after the harvest of the sheep. This is after the harvest of the wheat and tares. You cannot conflate all these 28 events into a single second coming event of a twinkling of an eye when people rise out of the dust at the exact same moment. It is not looking at the Second Coming from 4 different perspectives all ending at the same time.


The purpose of the book of Revelation is the systematic and methodological steps of seperate harvests in the order of the first being last and the last being first. The church including all nationalities is the last kid on the block, and removed first. Israel was leading up to the the advent of the church and removed next. All nations at the start knew God, but turned away from God which led to Abraham being called out as a father of many nations. So the nations as the wheat and tares are removed next.

Then it comes down to individuals, between the cracks, the Cain and Abels of the gleanings of mankind. Those who God marks as eternally removed from redemption, and those obedient to a sacrifice that is no more about lambs and sin offerings. The severance of the head and the end of life itself, and then God's wrath on those who still refuse God's longsuffering. That is the end of the road for the one act of disobedience, set in motion by Adam Adam's punishment is over, and the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Daniel's 70 weeks declared complete. The Day of the Lord can begin to finish up this current creation.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

The Millennium is about those alive in Christ. It will be sin free, and Adam flesh free. None of that belongs in the Millennium.

So to say there is no chronological order to Revelation and it is just a sand box to make up whatever you want it to be, including post everything, because that is what Daniel saw, the post point of everything, is doing exactly what you accuse others of, that is ignoring most everything else about God's Word.

And even those claiming pre-trib cannot get it right when they want to mix and match up these events out of order to fit their human understanding. The tribulation of the church started with the stoning of Stephen, and Peter put in prison. That ends at the 6th Seal. The time of Jacob's trouble is the first 6 Trumpets. All the sheep and goats are removed from the earth. No one hangs around in the field, except Jesus, the angels and the 144k. Then the 7 Thunders is the removal of the tares first, and then the wheat. Still all are removed. No one hangs around on the earth. Then when the 7th Trumpet sounds all Kingdoms belong to Christ, and all are empty without Adam's dead corruptible flesh clogging up the works. Now we have the week of the Atonement Covenant confirmed with the many, the leftovers, the gleanings. God in foreknowledge knows if any will beheaded. Then and only then are 42 months extended for this last harvest of those beheaded.

We are told in Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 who are harvested, and even how, but the church has been misinformed and conflated these seperate harvests, even though John seperated and divided them from each other as he saw them unfold. So to bunch them altogether is defeating the purpose of why they were separated to begin with. Even Jesus gave the events of these harvests separately at different times. Then the church which included all OT redeemed has been removed and waiting in Paradise since the day of the Cross, when the thief entered Paradise. We already know they don't hang around on earth after a harvest. So why claim souls hang around after the church is harvested? The church is not the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. The church is the unseen Kingdom in Heaven known as Paradise. The majority are all already there. They don't come back until the New Jerusalem descends after the Millennium. All those removed during, and your post beheaded, live on the earth, with Christ the King for a thousand years. The firstfruits are after the Second Coming at the 6th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

There is no event or prophecy recorded in the Scriptures that says JESUS swoops down for a rapture and then goes back to Heaven and then back again for the Second Coming.

I never claimed there was. Read my post again. You missed something.

 

[Timtofly]

If you had understanding you would realize that the 144,000 have been redeemed from the earth BEFORE the 5th seal.

No they were not. They are sealed and redeemed, and removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh in the same instant of time, each by a different angel.

The same thing happens every time a soul leaves the body. God does not use a tractor beam. God uses angels to gather a soul.

The only resurrection where souls entered a new body on earth and walked out of their graves was the moment Jesus declared it was finished. Where does it say they were gathered by angels?

The angels transport even those currently in Paradise to that meeting point.

But at the 6th Seal Jesus continues to the earth, while the church is still waiting in Paradise. The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. You are changing around the chronological order to fit your personal theology.

 

[Timtofly]

Stop saying this. It originates from a cult.

No, it is from Paul's writings. Paul calls Adam's flesh dead and corruptible. Did Paul start a cult?

Flesh cannot inherit God's kingdom in heaven. But a physical body can. One is incorruptible. The other corruptible and dead.