The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

Wrong.


Who told you? Show us the Scripture where God has specifically told you how the trumpet sounds. One short blast? Long blast? Repeat blasting?


Huh? Angel for days? Where do you read that in Scripture?

Jos 6:4-5
(4) And seven priests shall bear before the ark seven trumpets of rams' horns: and the seventh day ye shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow with the trumpets.
(5) And it shall come to pass, that when they make a long blast with the ram's horn, and when ye hear the sound of the trumpet, all the people shall shout with a great shout; and the wall of the city shall fall down flat, and the people shall ascend up every man straight before him.



That is not what Scripture says. That is speculation and (bad) private interpreation.



Try me. :)



Huh? What the heck are you talking about?! Why are you making stuff up? Don't you know how to quote Scripture to back up your nonsense?


You do not make any sense at all. This shows that you lack knowledge in the Bible because all you do is make speculations. Someone who does this is not a good bible student.

Well I guess you figured out angels can have short blasts and long blasts. Revelation 10 points out the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. An angel could blow a Trumpet for all eternity if God said so. They have been the stars for the last 6993 years. Is there a physical difference between a sound wave and a light wave? Why would it be that much harder to blow a trumpet as to shine a light?

Of course I can quote Scripture. Have you not read all the Bible and digested it multiple times. Seems you are stuck in theology and God's Word is nonsense to you.

 

[Timtofly]

That's what Pretribbers believe. Posttribbers believe most will be captured and killed by the AC. You need to learn more about the doctrine.

That is not Scripture either, or you would have quoted it.

 

[covenantee]

It certainly was not created in this forum. It is accepted that there are 2 Israels by many posters, including yourself.

Thanks for avoiding giving any answers.

Then link to evidence of its creation wherever it appears.

I don't answer hallucinations.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Exactly. The rapture already happened at the 5th Seal. Being glorified happened at the 5th Seal after the tribulation of those days, the first 4 Seals being opened. The 6th Seal is Zechariah 14 when Jesus stands on the mount of Olives.

The Trumpets and Thunders are the final harvest of the sheep and wheat, the firstfruits of Israel and all nations who live in the Millennium. The sea of glass is where they wait for 42 months until Satan is done with his short lived empire. It is during those last 42 months that the AoD is brought to life, and people are spiritually marked by God so all can see the mark. Those who are beheaded do so to avoid the mark. Their testimony to God is chopping their head off. That is how those post trib people escape the mark. They have their head chopped off. That is the decision to be made: beheaded and later resurrected, or take the mark. All decisions final, not take backs. No getting rid of the mark, once removed from the Lamb's book of life. No putting one's head back on to take the mark so one can be removed from the Lamb's book of life.

This example demonstrates the act of speculating and interpreting without quoting scripture. Timtofly made a narrative based on his own private interpretation of the book of Revelation. He does not know what he is talking about.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And you did not post your understanding, so neither do you.

I previously shared information regarding the 144,000 with supporting Scripture, but it seems that you did not receive it. This is not unexpected.

You posted what others have taught you, and wrongly.

Prove it. And you have not even refuted my position anyway.

God's Word is nonsense to those steeped in human theology, especially that of accepted heresy crept into the church, by pagan theologians.

Pagan theologians?? LOL... based on what? Where is the proof?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Well I guess you figured out angels can have short blasts and long blasts.

No, where is Scripture proof of your nonsense?

Revelation 10 points out the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet.

Rev 10:7
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you even understand what "the days of the voice of the seventh angel" mean, when he shall begin to sound that the mystery of God is finished? Let's see if you can explain this BIBLICALLY, not your speculations!

An angel could blow a Trumpet for all eternity if God said so.

I do not see that in Scripture. You came up with speculation nonsense that has nothing to do with what the Bible says.

They have been the stars for the last 6993 years.

More speculation. Scripture please, geez!

Is there a physical difference between a sound wave and a light wave? Why would it be that much harder to blow a trumpet as to shine a light?

Huh? Are you okay? Where did you get this nonsense from? Surely it's not from the Word of God. LOL.

Of course I can quote Scripture.

I have noticed that you have not included any Scripture quotations in most of your posts. As a result, I am not thoroughly impressed.

Have you not read all the Bible and digested it multiple times. Seems you are stuck in theology and God's Word is nonsense to you.

See people? What I was telling you about people like Timtofly who is not a serious bible student. I rest my case.

Sorry Timtofly, you are now on the ignore list.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 10:7
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Do you even understand what "the days of the voice of the seventh angel" mean, when he shall begin to sound that the mystery of God is finished?

Antiquated English.

The old english the KJV uses is always causing issues:

"in the days" simply means the "time of"...the moment when the 7th trump starts to sound then the mystery of God will be finished.

This is simply what it is saying:

Revelation 10:7


(CEV) God told his secret plans to his servants the prophets, and it will all happen by the time the seventh angel sounds his trumpet."

(GNB) But when the seventh angel blows his trumpet, then God will accomplish his secret plan, as he announced to his servants, the prophets."

(ISV) When the time approaches for the seventh angel to blow his trumpet, God's secret plan will be fulfilled, as he had announced to his servants, the prophets."

The 7th trump isn't going to sound for days and days like the KJV makes it seem.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't answer hallucinations.

You just incorporate them into your belief system of two Israels.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you even understand what "the days of the voice of the seventh angel" mean, when he shall begin to sound that the mystery of God is finished? Let's see if you can explain this BIBLICALLY, not your speculations!

You already explained it, with your own logic and opinion.

Then complained that I did the same thing you did.

Your speculation allegedly trumps my alleged speculation, according to your own argument.

 

[The Light]

Where does it say they were gathered by angels?

I never said they were gathered by angels. The Lord Himself comes for them as He is on Mount Sion with the 144,000 and then redeems them from the earth. See the 1st 3 verses of Rev 14.

The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th Seals being opened. You are changing around the chronological order to fit your personal theology.

I am not changing the Chronological order. I am understanding what I am reading?

Most people think that the 144,000 are sealed to go through the wrath of God. They do not go through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath. Only the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers go through the wrath of God.

The first point is that 144,000 are first fruits that are redeemed from the earth. What are they first fruits of? They are first fruits of the second harvest. Where does the second harvest place? It takes place at the 6th seal. Here is that harvest? It is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars that occur at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

What is the result of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The harvest is the great multitude which includes the Church, which is gathered from heaven, and the those of the 12 tribes that are gathered from the earth. All return to heaven after the marriage supper.

Since we see the harvest in heaven after the 6th seal we know that the first fruits of the harvest, the 144,000 have to be in heaven before the 6th seal. Can we prove that? ABSOLUTELY.

When we are reading Revelation 13 and 14 we are back in the seals. We know that because the wrath of is over because the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord at the 7th trumpet

Here we see the 144,000 redeemed from the earth.
Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Here we see the Great Tribulation?
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The Great Tribulation is the 5th seal.

Here is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the harvest.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Here is the wrath of God which is the 7th seal.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

In conclusion, when we understand what we are reading it all fits together perfectly.

 

[covenantee]

You just incorporate them into your belief system of two Israels.

What do you incorporate into your disbelief system?

 

[Timtofly]

What is the result of the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

That harvest has been ongoing since the Cross, including those resurrected from Abraham's bosom at the Cross.

They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, since the Cross. The only ones not yet there are those alive on the church at the 6th Seal.

The 144k are sealed to be with Jesus as King during the Trumpets and Thunders. The harvest are the sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 144k are the firstfruits of this harvest of the sheep and wheat. Just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church, or the 12 sons of Jacob were the firstfruits of Israel.

The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest is over. The sheep and wheat are waiting on the sea of glass near Mount Zion. They will start the Millennium after the winepress of God's wrath. No one stands around on earth after facing judgment before Jesus.

Just like the dead have not hung around on earth ever, until Adam's flesh is all removed. The Millennium is not for Adam nor those still dead in sin. The Millennium is not for the church. The Millennium is not for the sons of God. The Millennium is for Israel as it was promised to Abraham. There are also other nations represented on earth during the Millennium as prophesied. This is the earth for a thousand years like Noah had the earth after the judgment of the Flood. Jesus will rule with an iron rod. The first act of disobedience by any one is instant death. It will be human nature to always obey. It will be abnormal or a cursed person who breaks a law, and is condemned to death.

Just as Isaiah 65 declares. Just as Daniel 9:24 promises. Amil sale everyone short by declaring this future Millennium a symbolic here and now. This is not as good as it gets. This is still earth under the curse. This is still humanity in dead corruptible flesh. The Millennium will be earth and humanity restored to the place it was before Adam ate that bite in disobedience to God. Jesus will reign until the earth is subdued. That was the original task of those created on the 6th Day. Genesis 1:26-27 Jesus will see it through to the end where Adam failed to even fill the Garden of Eden with offspring to the full potential that was afforded.

Why has the church been sidetracked by theology that wants to call the 144k the church along with the wheat and sheep? These are the final harvest humanity after the church has been removed. These inherit the earth. The church inherits the kingdom of God in heaven, Paradise. Then Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem. But first God gets the creation that was meant to be for a period of time given in Revelation 20, without Satan and sin in the world. If you accept the Millennium, why must you change the order of Revelation to make your point? The church leaves at the 5th and 6th Seal, no other point of departure. The Second Coming of Jesus to the Mount of Olives is the 6th Seal. No other scenario matches that event. The 7th Trumpet is not a rapture nor Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet is declaring the final harvest over. It is a week long event like Israel defeating Jericho. Jesus as the Lamb slain on Passover. God does things in threes. Fours if you count the week of creation. But the dynamic changed the week Jericho fell. The dynamic changed the week of the Cross. Once again the 7th Trumpet changes the dynamic. Call that dispensations or not.

But those 42 months given to Satan are not during the Trumpets and Thunders. If they happen, they split the days of the 7th Trumpet down the middle. The 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem those last 3.5 days. The 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out on those last 3.5 days. Armageddon is the last hour on a Sunday, before the Millennium starts at 6 pm in the evening that would be Monday. All that is left of humanity will start gathering from 6 pm for 23 hours until 5 pm all Sunday. Once gathered that will be the winepress of God's wrath. If no 42 months are granted, then Revelation 14 is the winepress of God's wrath. Only one winepress can happen to remove the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh from the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

What do you incorporate into your disbelief system?

God's Word.

 

[covenantee]

God's Word.

Yes, you disbelieve God's Word.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The 7th trump isn't going to sound for days and days like the KJV makes it seem.

Did I say that? No.
It will be on that self-same day the moment the trumpet shall sound, Christ returns and the rapture occurs. Yes that 7th trumpet being the "last trump".

 

[ewq1938]

Did I say that? No.

It was just a general statement as part of my reply.

It will be on that self same day the moment the trumpet is sound, Christ returns and the rapture occurs. Yes that 7th trumpet being the "last trump".

Yes, I agree.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Did I say that? No.
It will be on that self-same day the moment the trumpet shall sound, Christ returns and the rapture occurs. Yes that 7th trumpet being the "last trump".

No rapture of the church postrib.
That would place the dead in Christ raised after the jewish gathering mid trib in rev 14

 

[David in NJ]

That harvest has been ongoing since the Cross, including those resurrected from Abraham's bosom at the Cross.

They have been serving God day and night in that heavenly temple, since the Cross. The only ones not yet there are those alive on the church at the 6th Seal.

The 144k are sealed to be with Jesus as King during the Trumpets and Thunders. The harvest are the sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is sitting on a throne in a Temple in Jerusalem during the Trumpets and Thunders. The 144k are the firstfruits of this harvest of the sheep and wheat. Just like the 12 disciples were the firstfruits of the NT church, or the 12 sons of Jacob were the firstfruits of Israel.

The 7th Trumpet declares the final harvest is over. The sheep and wheat are waiting on the sea of glass near Mount Zion. They will start the Millennium after the winepress of God's wrath. No one stands around on earth after facing judgment before Jesus.

Just like the dead have not hung around on earth ever, until Adam's flesh is all removed. The Millennium is not for Adam nor those still dead in sin. The Millennium is not for the church. The Millennium is not for the sons of God. The Millennium is for Israel as it was promised to Abraham. There are also other nations represented on earth during the Millennium as prophesied. This is the earth for a thousand years like Noah had the earth after the judgment of the Flood. Jesus will rule with an iron rod. The first act of disobedience by any one is instant death. It will be human nature to always obey. It will be abnormal or a cursed person who breaks a law, and is condemned to death.

Just as Isaiah 65 declares. Just as Daniel 9:24 promises. Amil sale everyone short by declaring this future Millennium a symbolic here and now. This is not as good as it gets. This is still earth under the curse. This is still humanity in dead corruptible flesh. The Millennium will be earth and humanity restored to the place it was before Adam ate that bite in disobedience to God. Jesus will reign until the earth is subdued. That was the original task of those created on the 6th Day. Genesis 1:26-27 Jesus will see it through to the end where Adam failed to even fill the Garden of Eden with offspring to the full potential that was afforded.

Why has the church been sidetracked by theology that wants to call the 144k the church along with the wheat and sheep? These are the final harvest humanity after the church has been removed. These inherit the earth. The church inherits the kingdom of God in heaven, Paradise. Then Paradise becomes the New Jerusalem. But first God gets the creation that was meant to be for a period of time given in Revelation 20, without Satan and sin in the world. If you accept the Millennium, why must you change the order of Revelation to make your point? The church leaves at the 5th and 6th Seal, no other point of departure. The Second Coming of Jesus to the Mount of Olives is the 6th Seal. No other scenario matches that event. The 7th Trumpet is not a rapture nor Second Coming. The 7th Trumpet is declaring the final harvest over. It is a week long event like Israel defeating Jericho. Jesus as the Lamb slain on Passover. God does things in threes. Fours if you count the week of creation. But the dynamic changed the week Jericho fell. The dynamic changed the week of the Cross. Once again the 7th Trumpet changes the dynamic. Call that dispensations or not.

But those 42 months given to Satan are not during the Trumpets and Thunders. If they happen, they split the days of the 7th Trumpet down the middle. The 2 witnesses lay dead in Jerusalem those last 3.5 days. The 7 vials of God's wrath are poured out on those last 3.5 days. Armageddon is the last hour on a Sunday, before the Millennium starts at 6 pm in the evening that would be Monday. All that is left of humanity will start gathering from 6 pm for 23 hours until 5 pm all Sunday. Once gathered that will be the winepress of God's wrath. If no 42 months are granted, then Revelation 14 is the winepress of God's wrath. Only one winepress can happen to remove the last of Adam's dead corruptible flesh from the earth.

You ask: "Why has the church been sidetracked by theology that wants to call the 144k the church?

Answer: Revelation chapter 21

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying,
“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

 

[PinSeeker]

No rapture of the church postrib.

Right... or pre-trib, or mid-trib. There is no "rapture." Christ's return will be rapturous, in that it will be sudden... and forceful, in the sense that no one and nothing (not even the evil one) will be able to contend with or mitigate it in any way... and final. All tribulation will cease, instantly, finally, and totally.

That would place the dead in Christ raised after the jewish gathering mid trib in rev 14

There will be no more sin and no more death. It will be the final and glorious victory. The final Judgment will ensue, and then the new heaven and new earth ~ all things made new (Revelation 21:5), not "all new things" ~ will be ushered in in its fullness... heaven and earth will finally be made one again, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be for eternity... forever and ever.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Right... or pre-trib, or mid-trib. There is no "rapture." Christ's return will be rapturous, in that it will be sudden... and forceful, in the sense that no one and nothing (not even the evil one) will be able to contend with or mitigate it in any way... and final. All tribulation will cease, instantly, finally, and totally.


There will be no more sin and no more death. It will be the final and glorious victory. The final Judgment will ensue, and then the new heaven and new earth ~ all things made new (Revelation 21:5), not "all new things" ~ will be ushered in in its fullness... heaven and earth will finally be made one again, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be for eternity... forever and ever.

Grace and peace to all.

Rapture is from earth
The gathering of the bride... mat 25.
It is to heaven and is framed BY JESUS pretrib.
Prohesied BY JESUS at the last supper.
The Jews gathered about mid trib and DO NOT precede the dead in Christ raised and raptured pretrib.

You have to undo Gods word to bring in another rapture dynamic.
But you modify it into oblivion by the reckless statement of "no rapture"

Use verses to prove how you came up with that.