The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Noah...aint going away
Lot...aint going away.
BEFORE the flood ...aint going away
First fruits ...aint going away
144k being an exact number...aint going away.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 19 does not say that is the Second Coming. That is you adding to the text.

The Second Coming is to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 19 is to the Mount of Megiddo. Two totally different locations 60 miles apart from each other.

Revelation 19 cannot be the Second Coming, period, for the reason you declared. So why do you claim it is the Second Coming? You contradict yourself. Revelation 19 is not a meeting in the air. Revelation 19 is not Jesus Coming to earth with the angels for the final harvest. There is literally no one left on the earth to harvest. In fact those on white horses are the final harvest from the Second Coming years before this battle at Armageddon. The Second Coming is not after the 7 vials are already poured out. Revelation 19 is the battle that is the 6th vial preparation.

"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Revelation 19 is the defeat of the beast, FP, and Satan. The beast and FP are cast into the LOF. Satan is bound for a thousand years. The 7th kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom on earth for this same thousand years Satan is bound. Revelation 19 is a return, because Jesus and the 144k did not reign in Jerusalem at the same time as Satan did as the 8th kingdom that lasted for 42 months.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, because that was the start of the final harvest. The final harvest was declared over at the 7th Trumpet. Then in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Satan was allowed 42 months as the 8th kingdom. Revelation 17:10-11.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Jesus is declared the 7th kingdom at the 7th Trumpet for 3.5 days.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Yet if an 8th kingdom happens, it is because of Daniel 9:27. It is also the 3rd woe. Those 42 months result in the harvest of those beheaded, who refuse to take the mark. Jesus is not reigning on earth, because Satan is the 8th kingdom, and the 7th kingdom is placed on hold for 42 months.

You say rev 19 is "a" coming.
Rev 19 is THE second coming on white horses. Millions of them darkening the sky.
That is what it says.
I think you misplace a lot of things in favor of "definitions"

 

[rebuilder 454]

noah entered before the flood and went into the sky.
Returned to earth post flood.
Change it, omit it, cleverly cover it.
It is not going anywhere.
Must be disheartening, how you guys get owned big time by the bible.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Zao is life]

The only reason the Lamb's book of life is unsealed is to start removing names during the GT.

The church is sealed and in Paradise.

The 144k are on the earth sealed to go through the GT with Jesus and the angels. Those remaining in the Lamb's book of life live a thousand years on the earth. The firstfruits and final harvest are those who rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years, the Prince part of the Messiah the Prince. The church has gone through tribulation over the last 1993 years. Seems to me that there is a lot of history you all are cramming into the time after the Second Coming.

The final harvest is Jacob's Trouble and not the church's tribulation. The church returns after the Day of the Lord as the New Jerusalem.

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Tell me what the above means in your interpretation.

 

[Zao is life]

You ever open a bible???
I challenge you to stand toe to toe with a bible in hand.
You little shots against me are plain juvenile.
Either crack a bible or keep making a showcase of your inability to refute the bible verses your teachers never incorporated.
Your call

It's you who needs to 'crack open a Bible'. You have three fingers pointing right back at you, and a wet thumb. I challenge you to find me two scriptures that mention "the tribulation" of the world besides the two I mention below:​

PERSECUTION, TRIBULATION, & GREAT TRIBULATION​

Persecution of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of "the woman" who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13​

TRIBULATION OF NON-CHRISTIANS​

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.​

TRIBULATION OF APOSTLES OR CHRISTIANS:- ​

Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.​

GREAT TRIBULATION
[Greek: mégas thlîpsis]​

Mentioned only three times in the New Testament:-

First mention: The Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20) *

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

"And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then the sign of the Son of man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." (Matthew 24:29-31).

Third mention: Revelation 7:13-14:

Revelation 7:9-10, 13-15
9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb.

And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come?

And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of great tribulation [mégas thlîpsis] and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

Second mention: Revelation 2:21: "Behold, I will cast her (Jezebel) into a bed, and them (those Christians) that commit adultery with her into mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), except they repent of their deeds."

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."
​

So, you see, Jesus did not lie when He said "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

See what happens when your practice of changing the meaning of scripture gets you exposed by the scripture you refuse to acknoweldge???

I challenge you to find me two scriptures that mention "the tribulation" of the world besides the two I mentioned above.

Of course, you won't, because you're too busy telling others to crack open a Bible to be concerned about cracking open a Bible yourself to find out what the Bible actually teaches ..​

 

[Zao is life]

For some having a Pre-rapture rapture (a Pre-ttrib rapture) is only about winning a debate. It's not about the Word of Truth.

 

[David in NJ]

LOL
that innumerable number is in heaven before the 144k are sealed.
Your entire premise is refuted by your own talking point.
This is what i am talking about.
You guys have no idea what is going on with the 144k so you grab a concept not in the bible and sling it against the wall hoping it will stick.

Oh Boy!

In your posts 1,130 and 1,133 you made references about "cracking open a Bible"

And before these you specifically said to me: "Allow the scriptures to interpret scripture"

Well then, you are in desperate need to "crack open your Bible", do some observant reading and "allow the scriptures to do it's own interpreting."

i have given you PERFECT interpretation via Sola Scriptura and here now is another one in response to your comment here:

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

 

[brightfame52]

I am thinking you guys must not believe there are ethnic Jews.
That is the only reason i can come up with for such weak answers to bible facts.
1) they are somehow "resealed" since you guys say (correctly) all believers are sealed????
2) you can not honestly refute the number because it has no magic spiritual application to the church.
3) you are trying to unpack "first fruits" and have no idea that firstfruits precedes main harvest.

IOW you can not even begin to comprehend the 144k if you misplace and omit the covenant Jews of Rom 11 and reframe firstfruits as some component that changes its dynamic in rev just to suit your clever reframing.
Not to mention reframing their number as a avoidance of what it actually is.

jews now are considered gentiles and shall be saved as God saves the gentiles. They are part of this crowd Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Then Jesus lied when He said "tribulation such as the world has never seen and never will see"
See what happens when your doctrine of omissions comes up to the bible???
You showcase cliche's.
"Word shuffles" hoping to void what is actually said.
You really think those "one worders"
is honestly refuting the Word of God????
The facts are there.
1) NOAH ENTERS ARK PREFLOOD.
2) NOAH RISES INTO THE SKY DURING THE TRIB, FLOOD, JUDGEMENT, WRATH.
3) NOAH RETURNS TO EARTH POST JUDGEMENT, FLOOD,WRATH, TRIBULATION.
You can not reconcile any of that.
All of that is a fact.

#1.) NOAH ENTERS the ARK PRE-WRATH = the FLOOD

#2.) NOAH is LIFTED UPON the FLOOD WATERS/GOD'S WRATH = GENESIS 7:18
Now the flood was on the earth forty days. The waters increased and lifted up the ark, and it rose high above the earth.
The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.

#3. The WATERS RECEDED = GENESIS 8:1-5
And God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters subsided. The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained. And the waters receded continually from the earth.
At the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters decreased. Then the ark rested in the seventh month, the seventeenth day of the month, on the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month. In the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen.

There is no pre-tribulation lift off = once NOAH enters the ARK = only GOD'S WRATH is POURED OUT
AND
Any tribulation Noah now experiences , from this point on, is DURING the TURBULENCE/TRIBULATION of the RAGING WATERS

Sola Scriptura Conclusion = 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

​

 

[Timtofly]

such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Tell me what the above means in your interpretation.

No one has ever experienced what is about to happen. Everything that has ever been experienced will happen and yet there will be some things experienced, that have yet to be experienced.

 

[PinSeeker]

You are seeing the fruit of the postribber frustration. I totally understand how they feel. The bible must be refuted in order to incubate the postrib rapture theory.

Do you have someone in mind? Because... "posttribber"... that's not me... :) They do get some things right, though... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Combative to you is anyone refuting your theories.

No, combativeness to me is... being combative. :)

That is indeed unfortunate.
But i understand your frustration.
You try to refute the timeframe of before the flood.
It is unchangeable.
Yet you need it to go away.
You do understand we are talking about the rapture , correct???
You do realize that in that Noah depiction that Noah returned to Earth post flood, post Wrath, post-tribulation, post judgment ?

that's another Dynamic that you cannot change
it is there eternally.
The other thing is is that you would
need some kind of tribulation going on preflood , or that somehow Noah escaped tribulation.
Some kind of tribulation that was there happening preflood as in the four horsemen released.
you know, like all the Judgment that was coming up on the world through the Four Horsemen

you don't have a case at all

Case in point. :) The frustration seems to be coming from you (and some others here), Rebuilder. And combativeness. Which is a result of which is unclear, but that's not important to sort out... :)

"Neither Noah nor any of the other passengers were "taken into the sky." They were certainly kept safe in the ark, which was floating on the water through the flood, but not "removed" "
Lol
You say he was on the water surface?

LOL! No, he was in the boat ~ and, you know, maybe even sitting in a chair or lying in a bed he made/built ~ but in the boat... sorry, ark... which was... floating... on the surface of the water.

My bible says it was over a mile into the sky.

Right, the water rose that high over the face of the earth... :)

Don't hurt yourself now.

This is getting kind of fun, actually... :) Sounds like you've blown a gasket or something, though... :)

You just confirmed the bible by agreeing Noah was taken high into the sky.

Maybe in your mind... :) But that... really doesn't mean much. Not to disparage you or intimate that what you think about this or that is unimportant, but...

Such wasted effort to try and change Gods word.
But hey, keep tryin son.
Persistence!!!
Persistence!!!!
Lol

Ah, such combativeness and frustration... :)

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder. Especially grace.

 

[covenantee]

Your post is all personal attacks.
Grow up and crack a bible.
Here is your reference to your disdain of the ethnic Jews

"So you believe that God will choose 144,000 sex-deprived Israelites. Is that the criterion for His choice?"

Remember omission is your doctrines friend.
That is why you disrespect anyone challenging your theories.
We bring the challenge from scripture.
You mock us personally.
Kinda a postribber trademark.

Disprove this:
"The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth."

God is not a racist.

Notwithstanding your desperate attempts to contort Him into one.

 

[covenantee]

Translation;
You can not refute the actual declarations in Gods word concerning the 144k.
SMH

Disprove this:
"The Church has welcomed multitudes of Jewish Christians since its birth."

God is not a racist.

Notwithstanding your desperate attempts to contort Him into one.

 

[covenantee]

I am thinking you guys must not believe there are ethnic Jews.

The following Scriptures repudiate dispensationalism's racism by demonstrating Israel's composition of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning, and throughout its history:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

 

[The Light]

LOL
that innumerable number is in heaven before the 144k are sealed.
Your entire premise is refuted by your own talking point.
This is what i am talking about.
You guys have no idea what is going on with the 144k so you grab a concept not in the bible and sling it against the wall hoping it will stick.

That was a shellacking.

 

[Zao is life]

No one has ever experienced what is about to happen. Everything that has ever been experienced will happen and yet there will be some things experienced, that have yet to be experienced.

Has it got anything to do with the intensity of the tribulation Jesus is speaking about?

 

[David in NJ]

The following Scriptures repudiate dispensationalism's racism by demonstrating Israel's composition of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning, and throughout its history:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.

Dispensationalists believe there are two separate gospels - one for the Jew and a separate one for the Gentiles

 

[Timtofly]

Has it got anything to do with the intensity of the tribulation Jesus is speaking about?

If you mean that everyone physically dies, and either waits in death or the LOF. Or a few are given eternal life in a matter of a few months time as being intense, sure. If 8 billion people no longer experience life as they are used to in weeks or months, that would be pretty intense.

 

[Timtofly]

Dispensationalists believe there are two separate gospels - one for the Jew and a separate one for the Gentiles

Did either of those work out for Seth or Methuselah?