rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Anyone in christ is a christian.
We all know Paul saw himself as that.
Using Word games is shallow ground, but your entire doctrine uses slippery slopes like word definitions to gain imaginary ground.
The 144,000 before God at the end.
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We all know Paul saw himself as that.
Using Word games is shallow ground, but your entire doctrine uses slippery slopes like word definitions to gain imaginary ground.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
well i have not got the memo on the modern lingo of trib vs gt, vs wrath.
But yes the second half of the gt is more wrath centered.
The entire 7 yrs is great trib.
Easily seen by the wrath of the 4 horsemen and a billion murdered ( a number heaven says can not be counted) early on in the first year of the 7 yr period
(what you modern debaters call slight tribulation , and not wrath or great tribulation in the first 3.5 yr period)
Very hard to get on the same page when everyone has a different definition.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
I've read Zechariah! Have you read Zechariah in light of what is written in the New Testament? Or do you believe Christ is not fulfillment of all that the prophets foretold of Him?
There is much symbolism in The Revelation. For instance the first four seals introduce us to different colored horses that John describes. Certainly you would not interpret these four horses and riders literally? Rather you must use the description for what they represent to learn what this symbolic vision means. Who & what do the horses and their riders represent in the VISION?
There is not a single verse of Scripture that tells us Christ sets up a physical Kingdom on this earth! If you want anyone to hear your opinions and believe what you write, you MUST prove what you allege! Otherwise all you bring in unfounded OPINIONS without merit!
More opinion without validation from the Word of God!
So you do acknowledge there is much symbolism to be found in The Revelation! It's only convenient for you to admit if it doesn't conflict with your unbiblical opinions.
Again you bring nothing to prove what you allege! He who alleges must prove! Otherwise you are merely a joke, with a wild imagination! I suspect you are informed in your so-called Biblical doctrine from the "Left Behind Series" which even the authors admit is a work of FICTION! Just as is the doctrine you continue to spew here!
Christ came physically with His spiritual Kingdom when He walked the earth a man. When His spiritual Kingdom that Christ now reigns from heaven in is complete, the last/seventh trumpet shall begin to sound that time (symbolized a thousand years) for building the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be no longer. After the utter destruction by fire by the wrath of God comes down out of heaven to burn up whosoever and whatsoever is still alive upon this earth. The spiritual Kingdom of God will come down from heaven a, holy city, new Jerusalem and then His eternal Kingdom will be on the NEW EARTH. The Kingdom of God will never be physically manifested on this earth that is destined for the flames of God's wrath.
According to John's vision from heaven the seals are opened by the Lamb that had been slain (Christ's crucifixion), for only Christ is able to open the seals of the book that was given Him. By His cross, resurrection and ascension to heaven Christ opened the seals.
Revelation 5:1-5 (KJV) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
What the seals represent began to come to pass upon the earth when Christ, as the Lamb slain ascended to heaven after His resurrection.
It's only bizarre and we are far apart to you because I support what I believe from the Word of God, and YOU, well lets just say you have a wild imagination of what you think the Bible should say!! Sad really!
The Light
Well-Known Member
Just because there is symbolism in scripture that does not give you license to make up things to make your doctrine work. It's pretty easy to determine when symbolism is used and when it's not. As to what the four horsemen represent, we can find that in Matthew 24.
Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Revelation 20
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
As I said, it's pretty easy to tell when symbolism is used. However when we are given specifics, it is foolishness to change the written Word of God to make your doctrine work. And in fact your doctrine does not work. You only think it does.
I'm not the one making things up trying to get my doctrine to work. My doctrine is the written inerrant Word of God. You say I must prove what I allege, that's easy. The hard part is getting you to read what the Word says and accept what it says.
Revelation 7
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Agreed, but this isn't really what we were/are talking about...
Hm. Well, I say the age to come is... still to come. :) We are not there in spirit or through the Spirit yet. And, everyone will enter into it ~ 'it' being the age to come, eternity ~ it's just a matter of where and the condition in which they'll spend it. :)
Grace and peace to you.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
I agree! And you actually used Scripture to prove the horses and their riders represent what comes to pass during the Gospel age of grace. It would seem you agree that Christ opened the seals by His cross, resurrection and ascension to heaven. So why do you argue the seals are not yet opened?
Apparently being goaded into bringing Scripture to defend what you allege as Biblical doctrine has proven beneficial. Unfortunately, these verses from Rev 20 do NOT prove what you allege, which is that the Kingdom of God will come to this earth. How does what you've underlined in this passage prove what you've alleged regarding the Kingdom of God being on this earth? Because Christ plainly tells us that His Kingdom is NOT of this world, and that we should not look for Him here. The Kingdom of God is not NOW, for the Kingdom of God is not physically observed because it is within you.
John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Quoting this verse proves what I and others have repeatedly said. That is when the seventh angel begins to sound, time shall be no longer for this age (see Rev 10), and the eternal age when this first earth passes away shall begin on the new earth.
Now you resort back to giving your opinions without using Scripture to prove what you allege! That is indeed foolishness!
I have shown how I believe these verses are to be understood. The 144,000 symbolize the Old Covenant faithful saints (Church of Old) who lived and died in faith before Christ came to earth a man. They died waiting for the promised Messiah who would come to redeem them. They are spiritually the firstfruits unto God and the Lamb to ascend spiritually alive to heaven a spiritual body of believers. They ascended there through the Spirit of Christ in them after they were sealed.
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Just one final comment. Since the age to come is eternal, I believe that once we have eternal life through Christ's Spirit in us, we have already, through promise, spiritually entered the Kingdom of God in heaven, which is entrance into the ages (plural, not ages only of this earth, but also the age to come in the new earth).
Ephesians 2:6-7 (KJV) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
We don't disagree here. The eternal age that shall come will not be physical until this age passages away. According to Paul we have entered spiritually into eternal life while still alive in this world.
Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
In the PURE definition of the phrase = we are TRUE NEW AGE-rs, by which we have entered beyond the Veil by the Precious Blood of Christ, being Born-Again by the Eternal Spirit of God unto Eternal Life where we cry "ABBA-FATHER".
Therefore JESUS says:
Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ 38For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.”
Well, then ~ no offense intended ~ you are stating things in... very ambiguous ways.
I would just cut out the word 'physical' from your statement here... :) The "eternal age that shall come," RWB, is eternity. You seem to be saying that eternity is here, but just not physical yet. Meh. :)
This is what we call the "now and not yet" aspect of the Gospel. One day, we know that the "not yet" will be no more. Elsewhere, Paul says we have been made spiritually alive, newly created for good works (Ephesians 2:4-10), and have thus become part of God's Kingdom, which is still being built (Ephesians 2:19-22). We have been given eternal life, so it is certain that we will have life (and be with the One Who is life) in the age to come, eternity, which will commence after Jesus's return and after the final Judgment. But not yet in fullness... for now, we live in the certainty of what is to come. And that, as Paul says in Romans 8:28, God is working all things together for the good of those who love Him ~ heart-regenerate Christians ~ and are called according to His purpose.
Grace and peace to you.
Dispensationalism is a popular and widespread way of reading the Bible. It originated in the nineteenth century in the teaching of John Nelson Darby and was popularized in the United States through the Bible Conference movement. Its growth was spurred on even more through the publication of the Scofield Reference Bible, which was published in 1909. Scofield’s Bible contributed to the spread of dispensationalism because it included study notes written from a distinctively dispensationalist perspective. The founding of Dallas Theological Seminary in 1924 by Lewis Sperry Chafer provided an academic institution for the training of pastors and missionaries in the dispensationalist tradition. Some of the most notable dispensationalist authors of the twentieth century, including John F. Walvoord, Charles C. Ryrie, and J. Dwight Pentecost, taught at Dallas Seminary.
Dispensationalist theology is perhaps best known for its distinctive eschatological doctrines, particularly the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. According to this doctrine, this present church age will be followed by a seven-year period of tribulation. Before the tribulation begins (thus “pre-tribulation”), the church will be caught up to heaven where believers will be with Christ until the second coming, which occurs at the end of the tribulation. At that time, they will return with Christ, who will then inaugurate His millennial kingdom (dispensationalists are thus also premillennialists).
Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church. Every other distinctively dispensationalist doctrine rests on this idea. What this distinction means for dispensationalists is that there are two peoples of God. Israel is one of these and consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The church is the other, and it consists of all those and only those (whether Jew or gentile) who are saved between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture. Part of the reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is to remove the church from earth so that God can begin dealing with national Israel again.
Dispensationalism differs from Reformed covenant theology in a number of ways, but the most significant is this idea of two peoples of God. Covenant theology affirms that there is one people of God and thus continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. Covenant theology is not, as some dispensationalists assert, “replacement theology” because in covenant theology, the church is not technically replacing Israel. The church is the organic continuation of the Old Testament people of God. The oneness of the people of God is evident by an examination of several New Testament texts.
Consider first the olive tree analogy in Romans 11. In this passage, Paul is addressing gentile believers and urging them not to be arrogant toward Jewish believers. He uses the illustration of an olive tree to explain. Note that in the illustration there is one good olive tree. Paul explains that branches were broken off this olive tree and gentile “wild shoots” were grafted into it. The one olive tree represents the people of God that has long existed. Unbelieving Jewish branches (e.g., Pharisees) have been broken off this tree by God, leaving only believing branches (e.g., Jesus’ Apostles). Believing gentiles have been grafted into this one tree so that it now consists of believing Jews and gentiles. This tree is the church. If Paul were illustrating the dispensationalist doctrine, we would have numerous gentile trees and one Jewish tree (Israel). God would then plant a new tree (the church). He would take believing Jews from the Israel tree and believing gentiles from the gentile trees and graft them into this one new tree. Paul says nothing like this. The one tree that existed in the Old Testament continues, but now God has removed unbelieving Jews and grafted believing gentiles into it.
Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church.
In this light, consider what Paul says to gentile believers in Ephesians 2:11-22. Paul first tells these gentile believers what they used to be: “separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (v. 12). If that’s what they used to be, the implication is that the opposite of each is true of these gentile believers now. They are now part of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants precisely because they’ve been grafted into the one tree representing the one people of God. But there’s more than implication. Paul goes on to say explicitly in verses 19 and following that these gentiles are “no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.”
Dispensationalists have a difficult time grasping this because of their idea that the seed of Abraham is only the physical offspring of Abraham. Again, Paul begs to differ. In Galatians 3:16, he explains that “the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring.” He then explicitly identifies the offspring as Jesus Christ. But note what he then adds a few sentences later in verse 29: “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” Paul defines Abraham’s seed in terms of Jesus Christ. Christ is a literal physical descendant of Abraham. However, because believers, whether Jew or gentile, are united to Christ, we too are Abraham’s offspring if we belong to Christ.
Does Paul continue to use the terms Israel, church, and gentile in the New Testament? Of course. But not in the way that these terms are used by dispensationalists. He continues to speak of ethnic Jews and ethnic gentiles, both inside and outside the church. But he does not do so in a way that results in two peoples of God. There is one tree in the Old Testament that consists primarily of ethnic Jews, although some gentiles (e.g., Ruth) are brought in. This is the one tree that exists when Christ comes. He doesn’t chop it down, and He doesn’t plant a new tree. He prunes the unbelieving Jewish branches off, leaving only the believing Jewish branches. He then begins to graft believing gentiles into this one tree. This tree with ingrafted gentile branches does not “replace” the old tree. These gentiles are now part of the old tree by faith in Jesus Christ.
If the biblical teaching regarding the one people of God is allowed to stand, all of the distinctive dispensationalist doctrines that rest on the doctrine of two peoples of God ~ including a "rapture" and a future-only tribulation and millennium ~ are left without any foundation.
Grace and peace to all.
Dispensationalist theology is perhaps best known for its distinctive eschatological doctrines, particularly the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. According to this doctrine, this present church age will be followed by a seven-year period of tribulation. Before the tribulation begins (thus “pre-tribulation”), the church will be caught up to heaven where believers will be with Christ until the second coming, which occurs at the end of the tribulation. At that time, they will return with Christ, who will then inaugurate His millennial kingdom (dispensationalists are thus also premillennialists).
Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church. Every other distinctively dispensationalist doctrine rests on this idea. What this distinction means for dispensationalists is that there are two peoples of God. Israel is one of these and consists of the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The church is the other, and it consists of all those and only those (whether Jew or gentile) who are saved between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture. Part of the reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is to remove the church from earth so that God can begin dealing with national Israel again.
Dispensationalism differs from Reformed covenant theology in a number of ways, but the most significant is this idea of two peoples of God. Covenant theology affirms that there is one people of God and thus continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament. Covenant theology is not, as some dispensationalists assert, “replacement theology” because in covenant theology, the church is not technically replacing Israel. The church is the organic continuation of the Old Testament people of God. The oneness of the people of God is evident by an examination of several New Testament texts.
Consider first the olive tree analogy in Romans 11. In this passage, Paul is addressing gentile believers and urging them not to be arrogant toward Jewish believers. He uses the illustration of an olive tree to explain. Note that in the illustration there is one good olive tree. Paul explains that branches were broken off this olive tree and gentile “wild shoots” were grafted into it. The one olive tree represents the people of God that has long existed. Unbelieving Jewish branches (e.g., Pharisees) have been broken off this tree by God, leaving only believing branches (e.g., Jesus’ Apostles). Believing gentiles have been grafted into this one tree so that it now consists of believing Jews and gentiles. This tree is the church. If Paul were illustrating the dispensationalist doctrine, we would have numerous gentile trees and one Jewish tree (Israel). God would then plant a new tree (the church). He would take believing Jews from the Israel tree and believing gentiles from the gentile trees and graft them into this one new tree. Paul says nothing like this. The one tree that existed in the Old Testament continues, but now God has removed unbelieving Jews and grafted believing gentiles into it.
Although dispensationalism is best known for its eschatological doctrines, at its heart is the distinction between Israel and the church.
In this light, consider what Paul says to gentile believers in Ephesians 2:11-22. Paul first tells these gentile believers what they used to be: “separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (v. 12). If that’s what they used to be, the implication is that the opposite of each is true of these gentile believers now. They are now part of the commonwealth of Israel and partakers of the covenants precisely because they’ve been grafted into the one tree representing the one people of God. But there’s more than implication. Paul goes on to say explicitly in verses 19 and following that these gentiles are “no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.”
Dispensationalists have a difficult time grasping this because of their idea that the seed of Abraham is only the physical offspring of Abraham. Again, Paul begs to differ. In Galatians 3:16, he explains that “the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring.” He then explicitly identifies the offspring as Jesus Christ. But note what he then adds a few sentences later in verse 29: “And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” Paul defines Abraham’s seed in terms of Jesus Christ. Christ is a literal physical descendant of Abraham. However, because believers, whether Jew or gentile, are united to Christ, we too are Abraham’s offspring if we belong to Christ.
Does Paul continue to use the terms Israel, church, and gentile in the New Testament? Of course. But not in the way that these terms are used by dispensationalists. He continues to speak of ethnic Jews and ethnic gentiles, both inside and outside the church. But he does not do so in a way that results in two peoples of God. There is one tree in the Old Testament that consists primarily of ethnic Jews, although some gentiles (e.g., Ruth) are brought in. This is the one tree that exists when Christ comes. He doesn’t chop it down, and He doesn’t plant a new tree. He prunes the unbelieving Jewish branches off, leaving only the believing Jewish branches. He then begins to graft believing gentiles into this one tree. This tree with ingrafted gentile branches does not “replace” the old tree. These gentiles are now part of the old tree by faith in Jesus Christ.
If the biblical teaching regarding the one people of God is allowed to stand, all of the distinctive dispensationalist doctrines that rest on the doctrine of two peoples of God ~ including a "rapture" and a future-only tribulation and millennium ~ are left without any foundation.
Grace and peace to all.
The Light
Well-Known Member
That memo is not coming. The reason that memo is not coming is because most people think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs when Christ returns with the armies of heaven. You being one of the few that understands that there are two raptures should know that is not the case.
No sir. The great tribulation is over before wrath ever begins. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. See below.
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Then the wrath of God begins.
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
No sir. The first part of the 7 years is the beginning of Sorrows. This is the 1st four seals.
Matthew 24
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows
The great tribulation does not begin until the abomination of Desolation is set up.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
As shown earlier, the wrath of God does not begin until the tribulation is over.
The wrath of God, from the blowing of the first trumpet of wrath to the armies leaving heaven is one year
This is not the wrath of God. The 4 horsemen, are the beginning of sorrows. They are part of the tribulation. Then the abomination of desolation is set up and that begins the great tribulation. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God ends at the 7th trumpet. When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the seals.
And to be completely correct the first day, Noah loads the animals in the ark and is sealed in. Tribulation will not begin until the Church is sealed in the ark. Meaning that the seals are not opened until the second day of the seven.
Understanding the truth will not get you on the same page as others. It will take you further away from others. You are already on a different page as others because you understand that the 144,000 are first fruits of the harvest that occurs in Revelation 14.
When that harvest, which occurs at the 6th seal, is complete, the tribulation is over and the wrath of God is about to begin. Learning the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God will not help you communicate with others, it will help you understand how it all fits together perfectly. If everyone, (and I'm not referring to you), would just get out way and accept what is written, everything fits perfectly. As soon as something is made up, that person is off the trail.
Certainly.
Revelation 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Revelation 14:1
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 Corinthians 1
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
The seal identifies the servants of God, i.e. His Church, which began in the OT. Acts 7:38
They number vastly beyond 144,000.
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