The 144,000 before God at the end.

[ewq1938]

Does this mean the 144,000 are not in agreement with the two witnesses? Or would there be another reason why they don’t allow the two witnesses to be buried?

Revelation 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The two witnesses are not the same as the two prophets that are killed and not buried. In Rev 11:9 it's the two prophets not the two witnesses. Teh two prophets are two persons while the two witnesses are far more people.

 

[grafted branch]

The two witnesses are not the same as the two prophets that are killed and not buried. In Rev 11:9 it's the two prophets not the two witnesses. Teh two prophets are two persons while the two witnesses are far more people.

This is the first time I’ve come across this idea.

In Revelation 11:3 power is given to the two witnesses and they prophesy 1260 days. In Revelation 11:9 “their dead bodies” seems to be referring back to the two witnesses, so where are you differentiating the two witnesses and two prophets? Is it “they shall prophecy” in Revelation 11:3 that you are assigning to two persons?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Isaiah 66:18b I am coming to gather people out of every nation and they shall see My glory. The vast multitude of Revelation 7:9
Isaiah 66:19 I shall put a sign [Gods mark] on them and those I selected shall go out to the nations to proclaim My glory. The coming Kingdom.

Obviously the angel who shouts over the nations in Revelation 14:6-7 is an allegory for the 144,000.
The 2 Witnesses, Rev 11, will be 2 of the 144,000. They specially preach in Jerusalem.

That would be plausable that they proclaim Gods Glory.
But I think that would be obvious.

I can't think of a reason to assume the 2 witnesses are from the 144k.
They are not in any way connected that I can see.

 

[ewq1938]

This is the first time I’ve come across this idea.

In Revelation 11:3 power is given to the two witnesses and they prophesy 1260 days. In Revelation 11:9 “their dead bodies” seems to be referring back to the two witnesses, so where are you differentiating the two witnesses and two prophets? Is it “they shall prophecy” in Revelation 11:3 that you are assigning to two persons?

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


As you see, the "two witnesses" are two of one thing and two of another.




---------------------one witness---------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witnesses".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.







Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



There are two witnesses because that's what Revelation 11 tells us but that also does not mean the two witnesses are just two people. Scripture says the two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees. Candlesticks are churches and that's an unknown amount of people, and two olive trees is two anointed prophets which is actually two people but the two churches are much more people. The two olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks/churches so their spiritual flame can light their path. Same concept in the parable of the 10 virgins.


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?


so to add what we know:


Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two [anointed ones], AND the two [churches] standing before the God of the earth.

According to scripture, the two witnesses are two churches (candlesticks) AND two persons (olive trees). One witness is the two churches, the other witness is the two persons. Many believe it is Elijah and Enoch but who they are or aren't is another discussion.




When scripture refers to the two "olive trees" and we learn that olive trees represent "anointed ones" then we know these two olive trees are in fact two "anointed ones" which is simply two anointed people or persons...but there's more:


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Here only the two olive trees are called the two prophets. Prophets are individuals, in fact they are males. Two male prophets which are anointed by God to give prophetic messages.


Since its also scriptural fact that candlesticks are churches we then have this:


Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees [the two anointed prophets], and the two candlesticks [two churches] standing before the God of the earth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All believers in Christ are the firstfruits, duh! They are what 144,000 symbolically represented!

No, they aren't. Not all believers are called "First-fruits". This was an Israelite agricultural term referring to a harvest, and there were three harvest seasons in Israel. Scripture quite often refers to the resurrection of the bodies of the saints out of the ground as a "harvest". Such as James 5:7-8 with the "husbandman" waiting for "the precious fruit of the earth" compared to Christ resurrecting the bodies of His saints out of the ground.

1 Corinthians 15:23 spoke of the chronological order of two of these bodily resurrection events. These would take place in a ranked order of Christ the First-fruits, and "AFTERWARD they that are Christ's at His coming". The 144,000 were also called First-fruits, so they shared that "First resurrection" event along with "Christ the First-fruits". Their First resurrection event would be followed by those who were Christ's at His coming.

They are, I have proved Scripture posted above which you obviously did not read carefully.

No, scripture does not say that the four living creatures and the 24 elders in Revelation 5:9 were called "First-fruits". You are simply inventing that connection out of thin air. You have conveniently left the four living creatures singing that new song out of your comparison as well. There is no way those four beasts could be representative of the saints.

Also, the 144,000 were not taken out of every tongue, kindred, people, and nation. They were specifically selected from those twelve stipulated tribes of Israel - tribes which are no longer extant under the New Covenant with there being neither Jew nor Greek now. This selection of the 144,000 happened with the Jewish graves opened with the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion. It was only saints which were raised at that time, and they were all selected from those Jewish tribes whose members had been buried in past years at Jerusalem.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All the redeemed of the Lord are His First fruits from amongst men. They are His Own Elect. Christ is the Firstfruit, and His Body the Church is One with Him When He rose from the grave as the firstfruit 1 Cor 15:20,23

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those He died for were in union with Him, when He rose as the firstfruit from the dead, they did with Him Eph 2:5-6

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, but heavenly and Spiritual things

The "First-fruits" was not composed of every bodily-resurrected saint. It was only the first group of saints to be raised in a glorified, incorruptible body in the "First resurrection" bodily "harvest" of the dead saints in AD 33.

While it is true that all believers share together in the benefits of the First resurrection, not all believers were direct participants in being bodily raised to life again on Christ's resurrection day in AD 33 as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints were. Spiritually we are seated with Him in heavenly places in Christ, but one day we will actually be bodily present in a resurrected incorruptible condition in His presence. Not all saints were scheduled to be bodily resurrected at the same time.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, they aren't. Not all believers are called "First-fruits".

Yep, they are. The first fruits are those who experienced the first resurrection which is what being BORN AGAIN is about!

Rev 20:4-6
(4) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
As explained the 24 elders are the priests of God and of Christ who reign with Christ. These are those who have experienced the first resurrection (born again). The rest of the dead are those who never have experienced born again (first resurrection) and will stand for judgment at the second resurrection when Christ returns.

They are not made up out of thin air because I have shown how Scripture interprets Scripture. The fact is you just don't like hearing this.

No, scripture does not say that the four living creatures and the 24 elders in Revelation 5:9 were called "First-fruits".

You do not see it because you did not compare Scripture with Scripture. Just because a verse about 24 elders without mentioning them directly as firstfruits does not mean God did not say they are. You have to search with the rest of Scripture as I have in my previous posts. Again, you do not like what you read.

You are simply inventing that connection out of thin air.

Ha.

You have conveniently left the four living creatures singing that new song out of your comparison as well.

Don't you even understand what the four living creatures represent? I will wait until you first explain this biblically first to see if you know what you are talking about.

There is no way those four beasts could be representative of the saints.

Again, do you even know that the four beasts (more literally, four living creatures) of Revelation are figures or representations of what? Show me the Scripture if you can find it.

Also, the 144,000 were not taken out of every tongue, kindred, people, and nation.

Rev 14:1-4
(1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
(2) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
(3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

What does the redeemed from the Earth mean to you? Isn't it the tongue, kindred, people and nation?

They were specifically selected from those twelve stipulated tribes of Israel

The 144,000 is a spiritual signification that represents the tribes of the children of Israel in Revelation 7 which the 12 literal tribes are merely a type of!

- tribes which are no longer extant under the New Covenant with there being neither Jew nor Greek now.

You don't get it.

The Spiritual Tribes of Israel started with Cain and all redeemed people after him, including the New Testament Christians! The 12 literal tribes of the Old Testament of Israel were only an example.

(Continue to next post...)

 

[TribulationSigns]

3 Resurrection

This selection of the 144,000 happened with the Jewish graves opened with the earthquake at Christ's crucifixion. It was only saints which were raised at that time, and they were all selected from those Jewish tribes whose members had been buried in past years at Jerusalem.

Time out! You need to read the verses carefully and understand what was really going on. It is not what you claim that the grave opened at the Cross (Death of Christ).

The "body of saints appeared unto many", just as the word of God reports. But this miracle performed by God, like every other miracle done by God directly or through the Prophets, Christ and the Apostles, was simply a sign pointing to some "deeper" spiritual truth. Note God's Word says the graves were opened and "the body of saints" arose, not the souls. Remember that! God's Word is not incidental or by happenstance, it is every jot and title God-breathed. Because the physical body is the only thing that was down in the grave. Selah! This is a miracle of God in reconstituting the bodies of the saints, that they appeared unto many as a "sign!"

Matthew 27:50-53

• "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
• And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
• And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

The tearing of the physical veil of the physical Temple building was a sign signifying the end of the Old Covenant and the beginning of the New Covenant in the resurrection of Christ. Obviously did not in 70AD (Sorry Preterists). The body of Moses was resurrected not by law, but by a New and Living way, that is through the veil, which is Christ's flesh. I did not say this, God did:

Heb 10:20
(20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Thus, the instant we read here that Christ died, the veil was torn from top to bottom and many people see this miracle of graves opening and bodies resurrected. These are not the glorified bodies of the saints, as glorified bodies do not appear as normal human bodies. This was obviously done as another sign pointing to Christ being the resurrection and the Life, just as when He raised Lazarus!

And I want to add something to make sure readers understand about the resurrected body of the Saints...

Saints are not in the ground. They are not in their earthly bodies. Worms are in those bodies. Those bodies are but a pile of dust. So, if those saints were saved (which they were), then they were already absent from the bodies that were revealed as coming out of the earthly graves, and were present with the Lord. When Moses spoke with Christ in the garden, He wasn't in a body, He was in His glorified body, Christ having been slain from the foundation of the world. Selah.

So what we really are clearly told here, is that the bodies "of" the saints came out of the grave after His resurrection, and appeared unto many in the Holy City. Not the souls of the saints, or the saints themselves, but the BODIES "of" the saints. These "bodies" [soma] came out of the grave after His resurrection and went into the Holy city and appeared unto many as a sign. By the normal use of grammatical expression, we would understand bodies coming out of the grave (on earth) and appearing unto many, as referring to things happening on earth. It doesn't say nor imply that dead bodies went into heaven and appeared unto Spirits, Angels or to God in Heaven. There is no reason to "read into this text" that they went into heaven and appeared unto many spirits there, but ample reason that they should appear unto men on earth as a sign, and those men TESTIFIED of this.

And one may argue what happened to the bodies of the Saints after appeared to many in Jersualem. Well, God didn't tell us, so I guess its not important then. It's beside the point, which of course many are missing. We could ask, what happened to the ass that saw the messenger of God standing in the way, and fell down and verbally spoke to Balaam? well, I'd say it's beside the point what happened to it! The point is, that was a miraculous manifestation, a miracle or sign to illustrate some spiritual truth. Not to demonstrate that asses can talk. Likewise, the saints bodes had obviously had long since decayed and rotted away. Thus for any body to come out of the grave, it had to be reconstituted miraculously. It did not have the soul of the Saints since they already went up to heaven the moment they died. It wasn't the saints that rose from that corpse, as they weren't dead, nor in the grave. The miracle is over! ergo, what happens to a miraculous manifestation afterward is immaterial.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And some people will ask me, "Why bodies?"

I think we know "why bodies" came out of the grave and went into the Holy City, since it was a spiritual picture or figure of the resurrection. Not the actual resurrection, as that would mean all the Old Covenant saints would have been raised up. Obviously, it wasn't the actual resurrection! The saints that once possessed those bodies were absent from them, and present with the Lord. So these bodies could only go to the physical city as a SIGN, and for one very specific Godly purpose which is, "To Appear Unto Many" that the testimony of witnesses might be found on the pages of Holy Canon. Selah!

Matthew 27:51-54

• "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
• And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
• And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
• Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God."

What many of you seem dead set on completely "ignoring" and/or casting aside the very plain context of this whole episode, as well as the statement that the Centurion saw all those things that were done. Was the Centurion in heaven to fear when the bodies came out of the grave and went into the Holy City? Of course not. We simply cannot ignore the very plain context of this taking place right on Earth. I mean we can, but it is not Biblically justifiable.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Now why would there be a resurrection of only "a few" Old Covenant believers? If this was a Resurrection of the Old Testament saints, then ALL of them had to be resurrected, not just a few. Obviously, this is absolutely not the Resurrection of Old Covenant saints. Its merely a miraculous SIGN or token of the Resurrection. I keep reading of all these special rules being made up in order to support various doctrines. Like, Moses and Elijah had special resurrections before Christ, or Enoch had a different Resurrection, though no one else can have that, and now I'm hearing that only a few Old Testament saints were resurrected because it was just an example? Half True, because it was an example, but not with real dead saints, but their "bodies" as signs/examples/figures. The fact is, all Old Covenant saints were Resurrected in Christ just as we were, not just a few who appeared to many in heaven for some very strange reason. ALL! Every last one of them. In Christ.

1st Corinthians 15:22

• "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

"All" are made alive in Christ's First Resurrection. From Adam to the last man. Not firstfruits only "after" the Cross. None of the bodies that were in the grave and released by an earthquake, went into heaven. Physical earthly bodies of men do not go into heaven. That's an impossibility. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. And that includes dead dusty flesh. A person must be changed, put off that body, leave it in the grave in order to enter into heaven. Thus NO BODIES from the graves rose and entered the Kingdom of heaven and appeared to many. They went into the physical Holy City Jerusalem and appeared to many, who testified of this, and Matthew penned that testimony.

As for Corinthians, I do not say that the passage is not difficult. But many misunderstand what is stated. It clearly states Christ was risen from the dead and "become" the firstfruits of them that slept whether they died in the Old Testament or the New Testament. Thus Christ "is" the Firstfruits, and we are firstfruits only in His resurrection. Not just a few bodies, ALL of us. So the obvious question concerning the verse is, when are we made alive? When are we become firstfruits in this context? Is it at the end of the world, or a moment after the Cross or now as we have been raised up in Christ (BORN AGAIN)? Each man must answer that for himself.

1st Corinthians 15:22-23

• "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
• But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming."

We have to read this circumspectly. And we first need to find out EXACTLY when were all dead in Adam? That's an easy answer. And having understood that, the question then is "exactly" when were we all made alive in Christ? Every man in his own order. Answer that Biblically and you'll understand why Christ had to have preeminence, had to be the First begotten from the dead, and how we are born again from the dead after Him, but according to that very same First Resurrection. ....IN HIM! CLEARLY, we aren't made alive at the last day, at the judgment day, but when we become saved by having the firstfruits of the Spirit come to dwell with us. We are "ALL," every man, made alive, in his own order. King David 4,000 years ago, Paul 2000 years ago, Frankie this year, Martha two years ago, we are all made alive in our own order. And its not to wait until Christ's second coming to be made alive or resurrected firstfruits.

Matthew 16:28

• "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

We indeed are firstfruits in order, Christ first in all things. Thus, in Christ Shall All Men Be made Alive, and they don't have to wait for the second coming. For His Kingdom has already come the moment Christ resurrected, and His will "will" be done, on earth, as it is in heaven.

Hope many of you find this helpful. Enough for tonight. Good night!

 

[ewq1938]

Yep, they are. The first fruits are those who experienced the first resurrection which is what being BORN AGAIN is about!

No it isn't. The first resurrection of Rev 20 is about dead martyrs being physically resurrected. They were born again BEFORE they were killed. The rest of the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years is over. That's the two resurrections scripture speaks of.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No it isn't. The first resurrection of Rev 20 is about dead martyrs being physically resurrected. They were born again BEFORE they were killed. The rest of the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years is over. That's the two resurrections scripture speaks of.

First tell me what was the first death before the first resurrection?

 

[ewq1938]

First tell me what was the first death before the first resurrection?

No. Stick to the context of Rev 20. You are using eisegesis to force things into Rev 20 that aren't there.

 

[brightfame52]

Rev 14 says the 144k are learning the song not singing. It says the harpers are doing the singing.





They are not the same. The 144k are only men from the tribes of Israel where the multitude is both genders from all races of mankind.

They are the same, they have been redeemed from among men and the both sing a new song Rev 5:9

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Rev 14:3

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[brightfame52]

The "First-fruits" was not composed of every bodily-resurrected saint. It was only the first group of saints to be raised in a glorified, incorruptible body in the "First resurrection" bodily "harvest" of the dead saints in AD 33.

While it is true that all believers share together in the benefits of the First resurrection, not all believers were direct participants in being bodily raised to life again on Christ's resurrection day in AD 33 as the Matthew 27:52-53 saints were. Spiritually we are seated with Him in heavenly places in Christ, but one day we will actually be bodily present in a resurrected incorruptible condition in His presence. Not all saints were scheduled to be bodily resurrected at the same time.

Christ is the firstfuits and they that are His with Him

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 14 says the 144k are learning the song not singing. It says the harpers are doing the singing.





They are not the same. The 144k are only men from the tribes of Israel where the multitude is both genders from all races of mankind.

It means they are singing.
They learned it because it is new to them.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Christ is the firstfuits and they that are His with Him

His body, us, are "main harvest."
First is literally first.
We are part of the first resurrection.
We are not first fruits...Jesus and the patriarchs who were redeemed from paradise, which was below,resurrected into glorified bodies and went to heaven. Hence first fruits.

 

[rebuilder 454]

All the redeemed of the Lord are His First fruits from amongst men. They are His Own Elect. Christ is the Firstfruit, and His Body the Church is One with Him When He rose from the grave as the firstfruit 1 Cor 15:20,23

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those He died for were in union with Him, when He rose as the firstfruit from the dead, they did with Him Eph 2:5-6

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, but heavenly and Spiritual things

You must posted verses that show Christ alone as first fruits.
Which is true.
We are main harvest.
As you have shown.

 

[rebuilder 454]

All the redeemed of the Lord are His First fruits from amongst men. They are His Own Elect. Christ is the Firstfruit, and His Body the Church is One with Him When He rose from the grave as the firstfruit 1 Cor 15:20,23

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those He died for were in union with Him, when He rose as the firstfruit from the dead, they did with Him Eph 2:5-6

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This has nothing to do with race, ethnicity, but heavenly and Spiritual things

Paul made the distinction that the Jew is dealt with separately.
Also illustrated in the book of Ruth.
2 covenants.
The first is 100% ethnic and race exclusive.
Paul teaches and explains it.
Paul claimed to be a Jew.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I agree with most of your post, the numbers 10, 12, and 144 are very significant and need to be looked at as not necessarily being a literal number. However there were literally 12 tribes and 12 apostles so it’s not inconceivable that there could be an exact 144,000. I’m not dogmatic about it but it could be a literal number that definitely has spiritual significance.

The problem is you just gave me a very detailed way of how I can spiritually number the great multitude that no man can number. I would think Revelation 7:9 would’ve said a great multitude that only the 144,000 can number, similar to Revelation 14:3 that has a song that no man can learn except the 144,000.

If the 144,000 are the multitude that no man can number then the 144,000 can number the multitude (themselves) else how could a person be assured of their salvation?

The only reason to spiritualize something that is literal, is to protect a doctrine.
They are not vaguely numbered to be vague.
They are EXPLICITLY numbered in 2 separate ways to PREVENT Any confusion about their number.