The 144,000 before God at the end.

[covenantee]

There is zero to support the idea that there are 2 separate groups of 144k.
Show me a ministry that agrees with that bizarre assertion.
Find somebody that agrees with you.
Are you the only one with that assertion????
That is TOTALLY made up.

You're the one strawmaning two separate groups. The NT Church includes the OT Church.

Whom to believe?
1. Acclaimed Christian historical expositor Matthew Henry
2. You

Need a hint?

Matthew Henry
Revelation 14:1-5

Here we have one of the most pleasing sights that can be viewed in this world—the Lord Jesus Christ at the head of his faithful adherents and attendants. Here observe, 1. How Christ appears: as a Lamb standing upon mount Zion. Mount Zion is the gospel church. Christ is with his church and in the midst of her in all her troubles, and therefore she is not consumed. It is his presence that secures her perseverance; he appears as a Lamb, a true Lamb, the Lamb of God. A counterfeit lamb is mentioned as rising out of the earth in the last chapter, which was really a dragon; here Christ appears as the true paschal Lamb, to show that his mediatorial government is the fruit of his sufferings, and the cause of his people’s safety and fidelity. 2. How his people appear: very honourably. (1.) As to the numbers, they are many, even all who are sealed; not one of them lost in all the tribulations through which they have gone. (2.) Their distinguishing badge: they had the name of God written in their foreheads; they made a bold and open profession of their faith in God and Christ, and, this being followed by suitable actings, they are known and approved. (3.) Their congratulations and songs of praise, which were peculiar to the redeemed (v. 3); their praises were loud as thunder, or as the voice of many waters; they were melodious, as of harpers; they were heavenly, before the throne of God. The song was new, suited to the new covenant, and unto that new and gracious dispensation of Providence under which they now were; and their song was a secret to others, strangers intermeddled not with their joy; others might repeat the words of the song, but they were strangers to the true sense and spirit of it. (4.) Their character and description. [1.] They are described by their chastity and purity: They are virgins. They had not defiled themselves either with corporal or spiritual adultery; they had kept themselves clean from the abominations of the antichristian generation. [2.] By their loyalty and stedfast adherence to Christ: They follow the Lamb withersoever he goes; they follow the conduct of his word, Spirit, and providence, leaving it to him to lead them into what duties and difficulties he pleases. [3.] By their former designation to this honour: These were redeemed from among men, being the first-fruits to God, and to the Lamb, v. 4. Here is plain evidence of a special redemption: They were redeemed from among men. Some of the children of men are, by redeeming mercy, distinguished from others: They were the first-fruits to God, and to the Lamb, his choice ones, eminent in every grace, and the earnest of many more who should be followers of them, as they were of Christ. [4.] By their universal integrity and conscientiousness: There was no guile found in them, and they were without fault before the throne of God. They were without any prevailing guile, any allowed fault; their hearts were right with God, and, as for their human infirmities, they were freely pardoned in Christ. This is the happy remnant who attend upon the Lord Jesus as their head and Lord; he is glorified in them, and they are glorified in him.

 

[Davy]

Ok, so I’m trying to get a better understanding here. The two Ezekiel 37 sticks are Judah and Ephraim and they are joined at some point in time. Are you saying that Ephraim in name only isn’t joined because of Baal worship? Is the name of Ephraim forever lost while the people of that tribe are indeed joined with the stick of Judah?

Read your Old Testament histories. Start at 1 Kings 11 when God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, making Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim king over the northern ten tribes, called the "kingdom of Israel" then, and "house of Israel".

King Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, over the northern ten tribes, to prevent the ten tribes from going south to Jerusalem to worship, and possibly augment the "kingdom of Judah" under the house of David, Jeroboam setup two gold calf idols in the north, one at the city of Bethel, and the other in Dan (see 1 Kings 12, starting around verse 20).

Thus Israel became "two nations" at that time, like Ezekiel 37:22 points to. The "house of Judah" put for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and the "house of Israel" put for the ten tribes, even as it still is to this day. God eventually got tired of the Baal idol worship that the ten tribes fell into and removed them all out of the holy land, captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return, as it is to this day (see 2 Kings 17).

The joining of the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 is for the timing of Christ's future return. Both 'houses' will then be joined back together in the holy land. As of right now, only a small 'remnant' of the "house of Judah" is dwelling in the holy land as the nation called Israel today. Those are mostly Jews of the "house of Judah", and not the majority of them even.

 

[amadeus]

Ok,thanks, I can see that. Do you have any additional thoughts on why Joseph was named instead of Ephraim?

The whole thing can be complicated as sons and tribes are involved. I do not pretend to understand it all. Ephraim, the youngest son, was given the first position over his older brother, Manasses, by Jacob. Joseph was the actual son of Jacob, one of the original 12. He was given two portions of the inheritance from Jacob. [When the Promised Land was divided among 12 Levi received none.] The first portion to Ephraim was in the name of Joseph and at times in scripture we see them both used. The portion given to Manasses by Jacob was to make up the double portion due to the son, Joseph.

The double portion for the first born is mentioned here long after the time of Jacob and Joseph:

De 21:17

But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

And what about Dan, any thoughts on why Dan was the tribe that was excluded?

The primary thing I have found is in the story told in Judges, ch. 17 & 18 with specific attention to these verses:

Jud 18:30	And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land.
Jud 18:31	And they set them up Micah's graven image, which he made, all the time that the house of God was in Shiloh.

 

[grafted branch]

Read your Old Testament histories. Start at 1 Kings 11 when God split the old kingdom of Israel into two separate kingdoms, making Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim king over the northern ten tribes, called the "kingdom of Israel" then, and "house of Israel".

King Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, over the northern ten tribes, to prevent the ten tribes from going south to Jerusalem to worship, and possibly augment the "kingdom of Judah" under the house of David, Jeroboam setup two gold calf idols in the north, one at the city of Bethel, and the other in Dan (see 1 Kings 12, starting around verse 20).

Thus Israel became "two nations" at that time, like Ezekiel 37:22 points to. The "house of Judah" put for the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and the "house of Israel" put for the ten tribes, even as it still is to this day. God eventually got tired of the Baal idol worship that the ten tribes fell into and removed them all out of the holy land, captive to Assyria and the lands of the Medes, never to return, as it is to this day (see 2 Kings 17).

The joining of the two sticks of Ezekiel 37 is for the timing of Christ's future return. Both 'houses' will then be joined back together in the holy land. As of right now, only a small 'remnant' of the "house of Judah" is dwelling in the holy land as the nation called Israel today. Those are mostly Jews of the "house of Judah", and not the majority of them even.

Ok, so back to Revelation 7 and the 144,000 that are sealed, wouldn’t this sealing then have to take place after Christ’s return since the ten tribes are, as you say, still captive until then? Or do you think they are sealed while they are captive?

If the ten tribes are not to return to the holy land (2 Kings 17) then it seems the sealing would have to take place after the coming of Christ because the 144,000 are on mount Sion in Revelation 14:1.

 

[Davy]

Ok, so back to Revelation 7 and the 144,000 that are sealed, wouldn’t this sealing then have to take place after Christ’s return since the ten tribes are, as you say, still captive until then? Or do you think they are sealed while they are captive?

No, because look in Revelation 9 on the 5th trumpet - 1st Woe period about those who are "sealed" and why they are sealed.

I really can't make this short.

That shows the 'sealing', which is by The Holy Spirit (2 Cor.1:22, Eph.1:13; Eph.4:30). In the Ephesians 4:30 version, Apostle Paul said the sealing is "unto the day of redemption." God's Seal for the very 'end' is about not being deceived, which is Christ's very first warning in His Olivet discourse.

Thusly, the start of the Rev.7 chapter is commanding the 'four winds' to not blow yet, not until God's servants are sealed with His seal. That four winds blowing is symbolic of the end of this world when Jesus comes to gather His Church.

The captivity of the ten tribes left the lands of Assyria and the Medes centuries ago. The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said they were still scattered beyond Euphrates in his day, and were a great number, too many to be counted. Some linguists, like Leroy Waterman of the University of Michigan, in the 1930s translated some of the Assyrian cuneiform tablets, and pinned names the Assyrians used for the the kings over the ten tribes, Khumri being one of them (referring to king Omri). So if you're interested, that should be enough for you to research to find out more about what happened to the ten tribes of Israel.

The Book of Hosea is particularly prophecy from God about what He would do to them in scattering them, and then about a time when He turn them back to Him in the wilderness, and take the names of Baali out of their mouths, and give them a new covenant. Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea in Romans 9 to Roman Gentile believers on Christ, and what he quoted is about the final restoration of the believers of the ten tribes together with believing Gentiles. Until that day, the ten tribes are 'hidden' from the majority of the world, and from the Jews. In Amos 9:9, God said He will sift the ten tribe "house of Israel" like grain through a sieve, and not the least grain will fall to the ground. So He knows where they are today.

If the ten tribes are not to return to the holy land (2 Kings 17) then it seems the sealing would have to take place after the coming of Christ because the 144,000 are on mount Sion in Revelation 14:1.

But the Ezekiel 37 prophecy shows they will return, just not until Christ's return.

Once again, the 'sealing' of Rev.7 is in prep for the time of "great tribulation", so as to not be deceived. The symbolic 'stinging' of Revelation 9 is about deception. God's seal prevents one from that stinging.

 

[brightfame52]

The 144000 is the Church, the Bride of Christ, The New Jerusalem the City

Rev 21:10-24

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


The City is also the Lambs Wife

Rev 21:9-10

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This shows that the Church and Israel, Spiritual Israel are the same !

 

[TribulationSigns]

The watchtower religion at one time said they were the 144k.

JW always had a false doctrine on 144,000 to begin with anyway. My doctrine has nothing to do with them.

In no way are you of the 144k and NONE of us ever will be.

Suit yourself... You will be in denial on the other side of the great gulf while I am on Mount Zion with all redeemed in Christ.

As for the rest of your posts, I will no longer respond to you because I can see that you rarely quote Scripture as part of your rant nonsense.

So I will put you on the ignore list and allow God to take care of your spiritual blindness.

 

[Davy]

The 144000 is the Church, the Bride of Christ, The New Jerusalem the City

Rev 21:10-24


24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.


The City is also the Lambs Wife

Rev 21:9-10


This shows that the Church and Israel, Spiritual Israel are the same !

Yet there's more.

The 144,000 represent only 'seed' of the children of Israel that believe on Jesus Christ and are part of Christ's Church.

The "great multitude" in Rev.7:9 forward represent sealed Gentiles of Christ's Church.

In some Scriptures of the Old Testament prophets, that kind of separate description between the children of Israel and Gentiles occurs at times. Because the 144,000 mention includes 'specific' description of 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel listed there, it means that is to be understood literally, and not symbolically.

And something else, if you know your Old Testament Bible histories, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi mentioned there represent the Jews. The rest of the 144,000 represent ten lost tribes Israelites that were separated from the Jews long ago when God scattered the ten tribes first (2 Kings 17).

 

[TribulationSigns]

There is zero to support the idea that there are 2 separate groups of 144k.

Because you fail to study or even understand Scripture at this point. Go stand in the corner and read this verses carefully:

Rev 21:9-17
(9) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
(10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(11) Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

See, two groups of 144,000. Do you even know what is the measure of a man means? One is based on the twelve tribes of the children of Israel (Old Testament Saints before the Cross) and another is based on the twelve apostles of the lamb (New Testament Saints after the Cross). Together they are 144,000.

Still in denial? Not surprised.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In some Scriptures of the Old Testament prophets, that kind of separate description between the children of Israel and Gentiles occurs at times. Because the 144,000 mention includes 'specific' description of 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel listed there, it means that is to be understood literally, and not symbolically.

Wrong.

 

[The Light]

You're the one strawmaning two separate groups. The NT Church includes the OT Church.

Whom to believe?
1. Acclaimed Christian historical expositor Matthew Henry
2. You

Need a hint?

After reading the commentary written by Matthew Henry and reading rebuilder 454's Biblical supported response, I would believe rebuilder 454 because I can read the Word and see he is not making anything up.

 

[The Light]

Ok, so back to Revelation 7 and the 144,000 that are sealed, wouldn’t this sealing then have to take place after Christ’s return since the ten tribes are, as you say, still captive until then? Or do you think they are sealed while they are captive?

If the ten tribes are not to return to the holy land (2 Kings 17) then it seems the sealing would have to take place after the coming of Christ because the 144,000 are on mount Sion in Revelation 14:1.

The 144,000 are sealed somewhere after the 1st seal and before the 5th seal. I know you think they are sealed after the 6th seal but that can be proven to be incorrect.

 

[Davy]

Wrong.

Isa 49:6
6 And He said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

Isa 61:9
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
KJV

Isa 49:22
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
KJV

 

[TribulationSigns]

Isa 49:6
6 And He said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be My salvation unto the end of the earth.
KJV

Isa 54:2-3
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.
KJV

Isa 61:9
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
KJV

Isa 49:22
22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up Mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up My standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
KJV

This does not make 144,000 of Revelation 7 or 14 understood as a "literal" number. It is symbolic for all Jews and Gentiles in Christ, whether from the Old Testament or the New Testament.

 

[Davy]

This does not make 144,000 of Revelation 7 or 14 understood as a "literal" number. It is symbolic for all Jews and Gentiles in Christ, whether from the Old Testament or the New Testament.

Nope! The 144,000 only represent those tribes of the seed of Israel as written. And the "great multitude" mentioned later represent believing Gentiles. BOTH groups represent Christ's Church 'sealed' by The Holy Spirit in prep for the "great tribulation" at the end.

 

[brightfame52]

Yet there's more.

The 144,000 represent only 'seed' of the children of Israel that believe on Jesus Christ and are part of Christ's Church.

The "great multitude" in Rev.7:9 forward represent sealed Gentiles of Christ's Church.

In some Scriptures of the Old Testament prophets, that kind of separate description between the children of Israel and Gentiles occurs at times. Because the 144,000 mention includes 'specific' description of 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel listed there, it means that is to be understood literally, and not symbolically.

And something else, if you know your Old Testament Bible histories, only the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi mentioned there represent the Jews. The rest of the 144,000 represent ten lost tribes Israelites that were separated from the Jews long ago when God scattered the ten tribes first (2 Kings 17).

False teaching, you trusting in the flesh

 

[covenantee]

After reading the commentary written by Matthew Henry and reading rebuilder 454's Biblical supported response, I would believe rebuilder 454 because I can read the Word and see he is not making anything up.

What acclaimed Christian historical expositor has accused Matthew Henry of making anything up?

 

[Keraz]

The "great multitude" in Rev.7:9 forward represent sealed Gentiles of Christ's Church.

The great crowd of people that John sees will be the Christian peoples from every tribe, race nation and language.
They ; WE will gather into all of the holy land, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed the entire area.

Nope! The 144,000 only represent those tribes of the seed of Israel as written

You know very well that over the 100 generations since the 12 tribes of Israel were formed, everyone alive today will have some of the genes of the Patriarchs.
Plainly and logically: the 144K will be selected out from the multitude, who will be divided into 12 groups, each named after one of Jacobs sons. With Joseph/Ephraim and Manasseh, but not Dan, as listed in Revelation 7.
So as you say; the multitude and the 144k, are both members of the Christian Church.

 

[ewq1938]

This does not make 144,000 of Revelation 7 or 14 understood as a "literal" number

It's a very literal number and it does not include any gentiles. Amill literally re-writes this into something from it's own imagination rendering the actual scriptures invalid.

 

[covenantee]

It's a very literal number and it does not include any gentiles. Amill literally re-writes this into something from it's own imagination rendering the actual scriptures invalid.

The tribes included Gentiles.

The Church includes Gentiles.

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.