The 144,000 before God at the end.

[Timtofly]

How could it not be a salvation context ? As well as Rev 14 and the 144 000 is a Salvation context. Talks about redemption Rev 14 3

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Now the 144 000 in Rev 7 and the 144000 n Rev 14 are the same. So again you believe in a race based Salvation, which is not of God, that concept denies the fabric of Salvation/Redemption totally of Grace.

Nope, only you make it about race. We keep going over that point. They do not choose Salvation. The angels do not go around and survey 2 million of Israeli descent and ask them if they want to be redeemed.

No one chooses to die either, that is not based on one's race.

Do you think Paul was racist by calling Israel "natural branches"?

Was God racist for giving the Law to Israel, and making a Covenant with them? Both of those deal with redemption. Are you saying no one was "saved" in the OT?

 

[brightfame52]

Nope, only you make it about race. We keep going over that point. They do not choose Salvation. The angels do not go around and survey 2 million of Israeli descent and ask them if they want to be redeemed.

No one chooses to die either, that is not based on one's race.

Do you think Paul was racist by calling Israel "natural branches"?

Was God racist for giving the Law to Israel, and making a Covenant with them? Both of those deal with redemption. Are you saying no one was "saved" in the OT?

No you made it about race. Its the church of all ethnicities

 

[Davy]

The 144,000 of Rev.7 LITERALLY means 12,000 Israelites out of each of the 12 tribes mentioned there, and NOT Gentiles. These are part of Christ's Church, and will be 'sealed' with God's Seal in prep to go through the "great tribulation".

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represents believing Gentiles in Christ's Church that also... will be sealed with God's Seal in prep for going through the coming "great tribulation".

 

[covenantee]

The 144,000 of Rev.7 LITERALLY means 12,000 Israelites out of each of the 12 tribes mentioned there, and NOT Gentiles. These are part of Christ's Church, and will be 'sealed' with God's Seal in prep to go through the "great tribulation".

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represents believing Gentiles in Christ's Church that also... will be sealed with God's Seal in prep for going through the coming "great tribulation".

You've been repeatedly shown from Scripture that the nation of Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles from its beginning and throughout its history. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

So it's obvious that you've replaced Scripture with your own fallacies and fantasies.

God is not a racist.

Try as you might, you won't be able to contort Him into one.

 

[Timtofly]

No you made it about race. Its the church of all ethnicities

I never said they were the church. You did.

 

[brightfame52]

The 144,000 of Rev.7 LITERALLY means 12,000 Israelites out of each of the 12 tribes mentioned there, and NOT Gentiles. These are part of Christ's Church, and will be 'sealed' with God's Seal in prep to go through the "great tribulation".

The "great multitude" of Rev.7:9 represents believing Gentiles in Christ's Church that also... will be sealed with God's Seal in prep for going through the coming "great tribulation".

More Race Salvation, denial of Grace

 

[brightfame52]

I never said they were the church. You did.

No you identify them separate from the multiracial Church, and call them ethnic jews only if im not mistaken, correct me if Im wrong.

 

[Keraz]

The Established Church as the People of God of the New Covenant, isn’t a correct statement as it is only individuals who qualify according to their faith and righteousness.

In the New Testament no emphasis is given to any select group, but only to the whole company of what the NT calls ‘the elect,’ ‘the saints,’ ‘the disciples,’ ‘the brothers and sisters.’ If we recognise that all born again, baptised believers make up the Body of Christ and the People of God, we won’t make the mistake of identifying the true church with the Established Church. The real church is always the whole People of God, the whole ekklesia, the whole Body of Christ, the whole communion (fellowship, koinonia) of the disciples of Jesus. It includes lay persons, clergy and non-church people. All faithful Christian believers make up and belong together to the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy nation.

This implies a second conclusion: that as Christians, all members of the Church are fundamentally equal. All equally have been called by God to belong, all equally have been justified by Christ, all equally have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit. All equally have been called to respond to the message, the person and the work of Christ, by their faith, their commitment, their cooperation, their trust and their love. In principle also, all are equally responsible for the Church’s work in the world, its mission to spread to Gospel.

The gifts of the Spirit result in different services, tasks, functions and offices, but they are secondary to the fundamental membership in the Church which is based on true belief, and to the life of discipleship which stems from keeping the Commandments and doing the works according each individual’s situation. What counts more than any ministry or office, however exalted, is whether we live authentically as members of the chosen People of God.

Do we live in faith, hope and love in covenant relationship with God and with our fellow disciples of Jesus?

For, more than anything, the Church is the community of the disciples of Jesus. Everything else is secondary and subordinate to that. The shared call to baptism and discipleship has meant that from the beginning all kinds of people, sometimes persons naturally opposed, have joined the church and belonged to the congregation.

Jews and Gentiles, free citizens and slaves, rich and poor, men and women, have shared with one another in the life of the Church as fellow disciples of Jesus Christ, their Lord. An important point is that only through Jesus, has every Christian become the People of God in the New Covenant.
This has happened ‘in Christ,’ as Paul says. This truth raises two questions, vital questions in Christian-Jewish dialogue and reconciliation today:

1. Has God rejected His ethnic people and been unfaithful to his promises?
2. Have the Jews ceased to be a People of God?

These are difficult questions, which have been debated by Bible scholars and theologians for many years. To both of these questions the Apostle Paul has given a decisive ‘No!’ But as we see today sadly: most Jews continue to reject Jesus.



So; who exactly is the Israel of God now?

We know from Romans 9:27, that Israel is as numerous as the sands of the sea and 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1 both send greetings to the Twelve Tribes, scattered abroad.

The Jews alone do not fit either of these criteria.

The truth, that God has kept hidden from general knowledge, is that the ten Northern tribes, taken to the Caucasus region by Assyria did not remain there and they migrated across Europe, Jeremiah 31:21, they now comprise most of the Western peoples and have become the Christian nations.

That God’s Plan to have a people that bear the proper fruit; as the Jews rejected Him, Matthew 21:43, HAS been successful and that Western Christians are mostly Israelites: actual descendants of Jacob, is nothing short of miraculous and shows God’s amazing Plan of sending Jesus to be our Redeemer and Saviour, to be God’s fulfilment of Deuteronomy 18:18-19, Acts 7:37

Note: that Jesus came to be our Redeemer. To redeem someone means to reinstate them, to buy them back again from a fallen state.

Our destiny as born again Christians, is to be the people God has never had, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, Acts 1:8 and displaying His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14 It will be our privilege and our honour, as He showers His Spirit and His Blessings upon His righteous people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 39:25-29, Revelation 7:9

The acceptance of the Gospel by some Jews like Paul means that their apostasy is not total. But the bulk of the ethnic Christian Israel of God are His people who have forgotten their ancestry. In the end times, their eyes will be opened and their ears unstopped; Isaiah 32:3-4 All the true righteous and faithful Christian people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 5:9-10, will be citizens of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land, but in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs, the majority will be the actual descendants of Jacob. Amos 9:9, Jeremiah 50:4-7

As Paul asserts: in the end "all Israel will be saved.” That is: every ethnic Israelite faithful to God, will enter the holy Land, accompanied by every true Christian Gentile, all members of the Israel of God, Isaiah 56:1-8, Ephesians 2:1-18, but ALL who reject Him will not. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Hebrews 10:26-27

 

[Timtofly]

No you identify them separate from the multiracial Church, and call them ethnic jews only if im not mistaken, correct me if Im wrong.

You are wrong. That is what John wrote, not me.

You symbolize them as the church, and then yell "racism" to those who disagree with your trumped up interpretation.

The church has been gathered physically in heaven since Resurrection Sunday. The church is not based on Israel nor the OT Covenant. The church is all of Adam's offspring, not simply Israel, as you infer.

After the Second Coming, Jesus is given 144k disciples to work on the earth with Him. You are calling God racist, because God disagrees with your interpretation as well.

You claim God is racist for calling Abraham out of Ur, and making him a father of at least two races. Then Isaac was a father of two races, as you seem to single out races for some reason. Jacob had 12 tribes, not 12 different races, for some reason. Now that God is choosing people from those 12 tribes at the Second Coming, you yell racist.

Was Jesus racist because he was born into the family and tribe of Judah? Should Jesus have been a mixture of every race on earth?

When it comes to the church, the church covers all of Adam's offspring, not one single race. Then you want to say Jacob, one race, symbolizes the entire spectrum of Adam's offspring.

Do you not understand that God used the twelve tribes as those who would evangelize the rest of the earth, throughout the OT?

After the Cross, God took that task away from one nation and gave it to a spiritual nation from all of mankind, whomsoever will. But you dictate to God, that at the Second Coming, Jesus cannot even gather around Him His own kin folk like He did with the 12 disciples in the first century. Do you think that was racist and the 12 disciples should have been from every other race, except Jacob?

Or were the 12 disciples not literal humans and only symbolized and represented the church? I get the point that many claim Revelation is full of symbolism, and then they go and attach any meaning to that alleged symbolism. But Revelation is not all symbolic. John uses symbolic terms, but that does not mean the entire book is only symbolism. Even Paul uses quite a lot of symbolic terms to describe the salvation experience, but salvation is literal and not merely symbolic. The sealing of the 144k is not a symbolic event. It is a literal experience for 144k literal humans. Why? Because they are disciples that go with Jesus everywhere Jesus goes. The church does not go with Jesus everywhere. The church is partly in heaven, and partly on earth. Jesus is currently only in heaven. At the Second Coming, Jesus will not be in heaven, but on the earth. The church will not be on the earth at all. The Second Coming is the end of the church on the earth, for the next 1000 years and then some.

Now some deny the millennium. Some deny that anything happens on earth post the Second Coming. So they have to symbolize the writings of John, to change what John actually wrote that disagrees with their eschatology. That is why they seem to think taking what John wrote as literal, is the wrong approach. John was not really writing about the church nor addressing the church after the first 3 chapters. The judgments given in 4 seperate sets of 7's, were not about the church, but pertains to those individuals who rejected salvation. Because what John wrote was directed to those on the earth after the Second Coming.

 

[brightfame52]

@Timtofly

You are wrong. That is what John wrote, not me.

Where does John say they were ethnic jews ?

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly



Where does John say they were ethnic jews ?

No one says they are ethnic Jews. What do you even mean by "ethnic Jews"? That could be a religious term, not just ethnic.

Jew: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people. One whose religion is Judaism.

Any one who adheres to Judaism is a Jew, like many who adhere to Christianity are called Christians.

The word Jew is not found in Revelation 7.

 

[Keraz]

Jew: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people. One whose religion is Judaism.

Any one who adheres to Judaism is a Jew, like many who adhere to Christianity are called Christians.

This is a contradiction.
The citizens of the State of Israel are not mainly descended from Judah. They are peoples from many ethnicities, who claim to be Jews, but are not, as Jesus said in Revelation 2:9

Some of your beliefs, like the Church being in heaven, are simply not correct and are unbiblical.

Because what John wrote was directed to those on the earth after the Second Coming.

Only after the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

 

[Berean]

We have things becoming very clear and unveiling right before our eyes in these last days, so lets take a look at those who will be standing before God as the 144,000..

John hears the number of those to be sealed, 144,000 to be taken from the twelve tribes of Israel. Notice, that the tribe of Dan is left out and is replaced by Manasses. The sealing started ten days after the ascension of Jesus into heaven, on the day of Pentecost, 33 AD. The Holy Spirit came upon the waiting disciples in Jerusalem. (Acts 2:14) If possible, the 144,000 would have come from among the tribes of Israel, this privilege was offered to them first; but they rejected their Messiah, Jesus, and had the Romans kill him. Their national favor from God came to an end in 36 AD. Then the first Gentile, the Roman Army Centurion, Cornelius was invited to come into Christ. There will be 144,000 in the Christ but they will not all be of Israel. The 144,000 are to be the members of the true Church, the Bride of Christ, who receive life on the Divine plane of existence with our Lord and God Almighty.

 

[covenantee]

This is a contradiction.
The citizens of the State of Israel are not mainly descended from Judah. They are peoples from many ethnicities, who claim to be Jews, but are not, as Jesus said in Revelation 2:9

Some of your beliefs, like the Church being in heaven, are simply not correct and are unbiblical.

Only after the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

Keraz, I believe that Revelation 2:9 is echoing what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29, wherein he declares that those who say they are Jews, but are only circumcised in the flesh; are not Jews at all unless they are also circumcised in the heart.

The former are the synagogue of Satan.

 

[brightfame52]

No one says they are ethnic Jews. What do you even mean by "ethnic Jews"? That could be a religious term, not just ethnic.

Jew: a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people. One whose religion is Judaism.

Any one who adheres to Judaism is a Jew, like many who adhere to Christianity are called Christians.

The word Jew is not found in Revelation 7.

If you dont know what ethnic jews are, maybe you shouldnt be in this discussion.

 

[Timtofly]

This is a contradiction.
The citizens of the State of Israel are not mainly descended from Judah. They are peoples from many ethnicities, who claim to be Jews, but are not, as Jesus said in Revelation 2:9

Some of your beliefs, like the Church being in heaven, are simply not correct and are unbiblical.

Only after the Seventh Bowl, which is Armageddon.

This post is not even about the topic of the thread. Your unbiblical view that those in Christ are still confined in sin and the punishment of death don't even pertain to reality. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life, not Jesus is the means of several billion redeemed living in skyscrapers in Jerusalem.

We are talking about who the 144k are. They are not the church living in skyscrapers in

 

[Timtofly]

If you dont know what ethnic jews are, maybe you shouldnt be in this discussion.

I don't know why this is about ethnic Jews, and if you don't know who the 144k are, you should not be giving out erroneous advice all the time. There are no ethnic Jews mentioned in Revelation 7 by name.

There are people descended from Jacob sealed and redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and into God's permanent incorruptible physical body mentioned in Revelation 7.

Unless you think ethnic Jews are irredeemable, there should be millions of them in that heavenly multitude without number and national identity, not part of the 144k which are humans on the earth. Ethnic Jews have been around a lot longer than most modern ethnicities. Not all of them lived in Jerusalem in the first century.

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, I believe that Revelation 2:9 is echoing what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29, wherein he declares that those who say they are Jews, but are only circumcised in the flesh; are not Jews at all unless they are also circumcised in the heart.

The former are the synagogue of Satan.

The point of this truth, is that the chosen people of God are not the people in the Jewish State of Israel. Only a few faithful Messianic Jews are. They all face the forthcoming Day when the Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies in all of the Middle East region. Zephaniah 1:14-18

 

[brightfame52]

@Timtofly

, and if you don't know who the 144k are,

Like I have said multiple times before, Its the Church, the Body of Christ, comprised of all believing nationalities Rev 7 9-10

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

 

[PGS11]

The bible appears to deny what your saying 144000 are the army that Jesus comes with.The bible gives a different picture before the throne of God.
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.