The 144,000 before God at the end.

[brightfame52]

No. It is about the end of sin and death. The end of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The 144k don't choose salvation. God chooses them, and removes them from Adam's corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

They receive the first resurrection without physically dying first. They are on earth with Jesus in Jerusalem as His disciples after the Second Coming.

The church is in heaven as depicted as the great multitude serving God day and night in that heavenly temple since the Cross. The thief was the first NT convert who accepted Christ, and entered Paradise physically that day, already with the first resurrection, and seated in heavenly places.

The church represents all mankind redeemed from every tongue and nation, you know that non ethnic distinction? That has been the case since Abel and every nation since Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

The church represents all mankind, then you say 144k descendants of Jacob represents the church. So the 144k must then not be Jacob's descendants even though that is what John wrote, but represent all mankind as you keep insisting.

You are the one insisting something that John did not explicitly write, that 144k of Jacob's offspring represents all mankind, because you insist they are not Jacob's descendants but the church instead.

The church has already been glorified in the 5th Seal, and these 144k are still on the earth after the church has been completed and glorified.

It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

 

[Timtofly]

It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

Since you brought it up.

 

[covenantee]

They are Israelites.

Correct.

Those of
Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22
are also Israelites, even though not the physical offspring of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.

They are Gentile Israelites.

God is not a racist.

 

[brightfame52]

Since you brought it up.

False misrepresentation

,It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

 

[Timtofly]

Correct.

Those of
Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22
are also Israelites, even though not the physical offspring of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.

They are Gentile Israelites.

God is not a racist.

They are Israelites from Jacob. Why do people born from a certain tribe chosen by God, make God racist, and why do you continue to make that excuse as if you were waving some magic wand to call all the redeemed: Israelites? The Gentiles in the OT converted to make them an Israelite. Those born of Jacob did not convert, but were physically born Israelites.

The 144k are physically born as offspring from Jacob as that is what God's Word declares.

 

[Timtofly]

False misrepresentation

,It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ?

Because all mankind is the church mentioned in the next set of verses, and the 144k are natural born descendants of Jacob who do not represent the church as you claim, because the unnumbered multitude represents the church in heaven from all nations and kindreds.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

See that part: "after this I beheld"?

That is the group that represents the church.

The 144k are Israelites on the earth redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They do not represent the church. They are on the earth and the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They follow Jesus everywhere He goes like the 12 disciples did 2,000 years ago.

 

[brightfame52]

Because all mankind is the church mentioned in the next set of verses, and the 144k are natural born descendants of Jacob who do not represent the church as you claim, because the unnumbered multitude represents the church in heaven from all nations and kindreds.

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;"

See that part: "after this I beheld"?

That is the group that represents the church.

The 144k are Israelites on the earth redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They do not represent the church. They are on the earth and the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They follow Jesus everywhere He goes like the 12 disciples did 2,000 years ago.

False misrepresentation

,It is about Salvation, and the 144000 is the Church, the body of Christ, and dont misrepresent me, I never said anything about the 144 000 symbolizes all mankind, but thy symbolize the Church, since when does the Church denote all mankind ? The Church is a special called out people seperated from all mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

They are Israelites from Jacob. Why do people born from a certain tribe chosen by God, make God racist, and why do you continue to make that excuse as if you were waving some magic wand to call all the redeemed: Israelites? The Gentiles in the OT converted to make them an Israelite. Those born of Jacob did not convert, but were physically born Israelites.

The 144k are physically born as offspring from Jacob as that is what God's Word declares.

Still promoting salvation by ethnicity, thats against Grace !

 

[Davy]

Doesn't change a thing. You said this:

I'm not... trying to change anything. I'm simply going by what The Bible Scriptures reveal as written.

It sounds like you REJECT the written Revelation 20 Scripture that proclaims when Jesus returns, He will reign for a "thousand years" over all nations, with His elect.

Those who usually reject that "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 instead believe on men's false leaven doctrine called Amillennialism, which is not written in God's Word. Amillennialism also tries to teach the false idea that all the wicked are destroyed on the day of Christ's future return. The following simple Bible Scripture easily shows that idea is false...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
KJV

Zech 14:16-17
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Like Psalms 2 shows, Jesus at His return will rule with "a rod of iron" over the nations. That's not for His Church, because He promised His faithful Church will reign with that "rod of iron" also. So who is left to rule over then? The UNSAVED nations like the Scripture shows.

And it should be EASY to figure out that at God's GWT Judgment time after the "thousand years", the book of life would have NO NEED to be opened and checked IF... all those unsaved nations all go into the "lake of fire"!

Thus you need to 'check' your HATRED of the unsaved, because ONLY JESUS CHRIST has the authority to determine who will go into the "lake of fire". Or maybe this Biblical proof I've given conflicts... with what you preach your congregation that anyone of THIS PRESENT WORLD that doesn't convert to The Gospel is going into the "lake of fire"?? What God's Word teaches about it kind of upsets that "they're going to hell and burn forever" type ignorant preacher message some churches push today, doesn't it? Sorry, but that 'scare you to believe' type message doesn't work anymore; it went out with the Dark Ages. Understanding in God's written Word and by saving grace examples is what brings people to Christ today.

 

[covenantee]

They are Israelites from Jacob.

They certainly are not "from Jacob". They are explicitly identified as "not of thy seed" and "strangers" to distinguish them from those who are "from Jacob". They are Gentiles who were received as children of Israel, when in faith and obedience they believed God and conformed to His Covenant conditions. Upon that, they were considered to "be as one that is born in the land", with all of the Covenant privileges and responsibilities of those of faith and obedience who were born in the land. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

The 144k are physically born as offspring from Jacob as that is what God's Word declares.

That's what you declare. That's not what God's Word declares.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22 declare that Gentiles were included as children of Israel when they believed God and met His Covenant conditions. The children of Israel were never confined to only the physical offspring of Abraham/Isaac/Jacob.

Stop trying to impose your racialized delusions upon what God's Word declares.

God is not a racist.

He cannot be contorted into one.

 

[Davy]

That's not what God's Word declares.

Well, yes the Rev.7 Scripture about the 144,000 DOES DECLARE to be ONLY about the literal 'seed' of the children of Israel, even 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel mentioned there.

What you are wanting to believe instead is a speculated theory that the 144,000 represents just any believer on Christ. Maybe you want to believe that too about Christ's promise ONLY for His 12 Apostles that they each would sit upon a future throne over the 12 tribes of Israel? Or maybe you're one those nuts that doesn't even believe the nation of Israel will even exist in Christ's future Kingdom!

 

[covenantee]

Well, yes the Rev.7 Scripture about the 144,000 DOES DECLARE to be ONLY about the literal 'seed' of the children of Israel, even 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel mentioned there.

Another delusionist.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

That includes Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

Or have you redacted those Scriptures from your "bible"?

God is not a racist.

He cannot be contorted into one.

 

[Timtofly]

Still promoting salvation by ethnicity, thats against Grace !

Grace is God's redemption of mankind. That 144k of Jacob are redeemed is God's Grace.

You misrepresent yourself. When God changed Jacob's name to Israel, that was God's grace. God did not change Jacob into a Gentile to show His Grace.

You say these literal humans descended from Jacob cannot be redeemed nor receive God's Grace because John realized they were from the tribes of Jacob.

So instead of agreeing with John, you change Revelation to say these literal humans are not literal humans but represent the entire church made up of all mankind. Your symbolism and interpretation misrepresents who these 144k are.

If you say Abel represents the church, bringing his animal sacrifices in faith to offer to God, that is fine. You do not deny Abel was an individual.

That is not how you interpret the 144k. You say they are not individual humans descended from Jacob, because that is offensive to your personal opinion and interpretation, which you then project onto my interpretation, that I am wrong saying they are literal individuals.

Are they literal humans or not? Do they have a physical father on earth or not?

Do you think they are not actual humans, but John is just seeing a vague broad spectrum of all humanity from all time?

Because that is how you are coming across misrepresenting yourself, and Scripture, because you started this whole conversation that they can only be the church and of no particular ethnicity or that would, God forbid, ruin salvation by grace, although you left out through faith.

I pointed out they had no choice in the matter, so they did not choose salvation, but you keep repeating that they are not even literal humans but the church in general which has been all mankind since Abel, who chose God through faith.

That is what John wrote:

"And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The seal is symbolism. The event is not symbolic. It is a literal event. For instance, being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, is a literal event for every human, but the seal is symbolic. God is saying that those who freely choose the second birth do not have to worry about the second death, but will receive the first resurrection upon physical death, which is the day of redemption for the soul, because the soul leaves this physical body of death, and the body returns to dust. While these symbolic terms effect a literal person, you would not deny a human is a literal person.

But then you deny the 144k are literal people, calling what John wrote, "a vague symbolic reference to the church". You imply vague by saying the numbers are just mere symbolism, and not even a literal 144k.

I am not promoting Salvation at all in my post. I am pointing out a particular redemption that is given to all redeemed humans. Obviously you deny the distinction between those in heaven and those on earth. But you are not that forthcoming on what even describes the church, since you seem to be against the point the church comes from all mankind. You are only arguing a point a few of you seem to like to falsely accuse others of, but only you bring it up.

Since all mankind can be redeemed, the church has little to do with ethnicity. Since the church at one point included Jacob as natural branches according to Paul, what do you even think that means, and should you call Paul "racist" and "destroying Salvation" with that symbolism? I don't even hold reformed Calvinism or reformed covenant views, and I understand Scripture. I can make a distinction between Israel and the church. Because Israel is as much a part of the church, as Germans are, or any other nation on the earth. The distinction is between what Israel is and what Germans are. Not all Germans are part of the church. Not all Israelites are part of the church.

I don't even need to use hyphenated words to understand Scripture.

 

[Davy]

Another delusionist.

Revelation 7
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

That includes Gentiles. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

Or have you redacted those Scriptures from your "bible"?

God is not a racist.

Stop trying to contort Him into one.

Now we SEE... what you really are trying to do here.

 

[covenantee]

Now we SEE... what you really are trying to do here.

If you see that I'm telling you that God cannot be contorted into a racist,

then you do see.

 

[Timtofly]

They certainly are not "from Jacob"

"and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Revelation 7:4

 

[Keraz]

"and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Revelation 7:4

Since Jesus came and offered Salvation to all who would accept it, then every faithful Christian is an Israelite of God; literally an Overcomer for Him.
Proved by Galatians 3:26-29

When we Christian peoples go to live in all of the holy land, we will be divided into 12 groups, each named after a son of Jacob.
The 144,000 will be selected out of the vast multitude of people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Seen by John in Rev 9:7

 

[brightfame52]

@Timtofly

Grace is God's redemption of mankind

False, Grace is and always for a remnant , its the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[covenantee]

"and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

Revelation 7:4

Thanks for confirming the Scripture that I quoted.

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks for confirming the Scripture that I quoted.

Thanks for agreeing these 144k are not Gentiles from the OT.