the 4 horsemen--ancient or now?

[Randy Kluth]

Yes.

Well, figured out to a point. Mostly I think we need to simply read and hear the book of prophecy. To know all that it says, to be able to call to mind all the different parts, to have the overall narrative in mind, to recognize these symbols and descriptions as old friends. I think it's much more important to know what the Revelation says before delving to deeply into the meanings.

I'm well past that! I memorized half the book of Revelation, and more, way back in 1972! I became familiar with the words, and even did a painting of one of the bowls of wrath--that helped, incidentally! ;) The images come alive when we actually see them!

But beyond this we need to contemplate the *meaning* of these visions. And that only comes with spending lots of time reading the OT Scriptures and walking with the Lord, praying and contemplating. None of us can likely say we've arrived at a complete understanding of the book of Revelation.

But yes, I know quite a few people who are constantly trying to match the newspaper to the Bible, and every year, "This is it! It's starting, Now!" Much better to spend our time focusing on serving others in love.

This is a true story. Way back in around 1975 or 76 I was trying to share with a friend my interest in biblical prophecy. And I informed her that we can just read the newspapers and see biblical events taking place.

And so, I suggested to her that I go out just then and get the newspaper, and look at it from a biblical perspective. And on the front page we read something like a major bold headline: "Is it the Apocalypse?: Famines, earthquakes, war!" :)

I think the Revelation was given in such a way, with it's symbols, and imagery, because God wants us in our minds to picture things in certain ways, because these ways give us the right idea about Him.

Just like Ecclesiastes gives us a correct world view from God's perspective, revealed through Solomon's experiences and understanding, the Revelation shows us Jesus.

Take in Ecclesiastes sufficiently, and I think you will find that you don't put much importance on earthly things. Take in Revelation and have a new experience of Jesus Christ. Read the book enough to meditate on it, and do that.

And sure we love to understand the intricacies of what it prophesies. I've never found two people that agree on it's meanings in all respects. But that's not to say it can't happen!

Much love!

Well, the principle for me is not to use prophecy as a future timeline by which to predict what will happen. We cannot live our lives by predicting what stock will do good, with information about inflation, job promotions, etc. We can only live a day at a time, with a dim view of what lies before us so that we can make practical preparations.

Our focus is always to be on immediate needs in our time and where we live. The future is to bind our priorities to what is important in the eternal run of things. We are to keep our eyes on Christ, who is in heaven, waiting for us to complete our missions.

But much about prophecy has to do with warning us about how we are to navigate through the difficult things that must precede the coming of Christ's Kingdom. We will face Antichrists and deceivers. And we will go through things we don't deserve, simply because we share a planet with fallen people.

And we have to be encouraged to deal with our fallen nature, and need to be aware of what our challenges are. We need to constantly be encouraged to endure. Take care...

 

[Timtofly]

But I'm not doing that! I'm just giving you my reasons for believing the 24 elders are angels! You are making a false assumption that I reject symbolic visions and visions of the future as if they are presently taking place. But that's not true. I've been saying this is standard language in the Revelation for many years!

When we see a vision of the Son of Man returning from the clouds of heaven in Rev 1, we know that this is not something happening right now. It is a *future event,* depicted as a vision. This is standard language in the Revelation. There are several visions of Christ coming back. It doesn't at all mean that Christ is coming back right now, or that he already came back in John's time. Rather, it's a prolepsis--a vision of a future event appearing to be taking place in front of the eyes of the prophet.

But I was trying to tell you why I personally think the 24 elders are angels. Your argument was that they are "elders," which applies to human beings. And my answer was that angels also appear in the form of human beings in the Bible.

But I also added the other argument that this vision of heaven contained 24 men, who should not yet be there. So it is *arguable* about whether this vision is a prolepsis or not. My not thinking it is a prolepsis does not mean I reject all prolepses in the book of Revelation! ;)

Brother, all this is arguable to me, and I told you I wasn't even sure myself. I just don't see 24 elders being in heaven in this vision, when I know that the departed saints are not yet raised from the dead. Their spirits are in some kind of holding tank until the first resurrection.

This 24 elders are apparently not ministering after the time of the resurrection, since it has to do with calling forth prophecies of events that *precede Christ's Coming!* The scroll in that vision depicts events that must happen *before* Christ's return, as well as prophecy of Christ's Coming itself.

The fulfillment of the scroll events is seen to be undergirded by the prayers of the saints. They are not the 24 elders who stand before God. The priesthood in heaven seems, therefore, to be angelic, and not yet inclusive of men--not until the resurrection.

The old priesthood of Moses is gone. And the new priesthood is held by Christians as derived from heaven, but is actually taking place on the earth right now, through our ministry of God's word and the Gospel of Christ. Current ministry in heaven is taking place through God, through Christ, and through angels. Just my opinion, brother.

God has a right to have the fathers of the twelve tribes of Jacob and his original 12 disciples to sit as elders over their respective humans in their charge on earth.

There is controversy over who some of them may be as Jacob blessed the two sons of Joseph, and the betrayal of Judas Iscariot. That is not my point. I have no judgment on the particulars. Just saying, that 24 elders over the OT and NT saints makes sense to me. The twelve tribes and the twelve disciples were the start of a great nation and the body of Christ. That has not changed from God’s point of view.

 

[Timtofly]

Well yea, of course. In my view, which is Preterist-like, but not Preterist, is that Jesus answered those questions as follows...

1) The temple would be destroyed in "this generation," ie in the generation of his apostles. And the sign of this would be the Abomination of Desolation, which would be the Roman Army encompassing the walls of Jerusalem like vultures.

2) The sign of Christ's Coming is not a time or date. Rather, it is the set of preliminary signs that constitute Antichristianity. Before he comes those signs will be opposition from the world, as well as the failure of nations in covenant with God. The sign of Christ's actual advent will be a coming *from heaven,* which will destroy *all* of the opposition on earth to the coming of God's Kingdom.

3) The "end of the age" is when all Antichristian opposition to Christ's Kingdom is defeated. And this will take place when Christ returns from the clouds of heaven.

I do think the seals of the scroll were broken. But I think this was just a vision in which these seals were broken--not the actual historical events they represented.

I do not think these events will take place in the order in which John saw the vision of these seals being opened. Rather, they were opened simply to show each event separately, to focus on each particular event. It was just a symbolic scroll that was opened in a vision, to show that Christ's death already earned the rights for this scroll to be unsealed.

So technically, the seals were already broken, at the death of Christ. But the fact they are opened, one after another, in the vision, is just a symbolic way of presenting the idea that these events are taking place in the future. No specific time is assigned to the opening of these seals, just as we were told not to focus on "times and seasons" for prophetic events.

Rather, these seals show the character of the Antichristian age, and its judgment by God, in order to pave way for the coming of Christ's Kingdom. The 4 horsemen probably depict angels sent by Christ, in the imagery of Christ's Coming, to show that the Kingdom will come after Christ's enemies are defeated.

These seals are broken to show 4 horsemen, representing angelic judgment against Antichristianity on earth. I don't believe the 1st horseman is the Antichrist, although that's a reasonable position. I just think these 4 horsemen represent angelic figures, who bring Christ's judgment prior to his Coming. And they are probably already taking place, or take place, particularly, in the endtimes.

The seals were not broken since the cross. The Atonement was the beginning of the Lamb's book of life. It was there from before the beginning of creation. It has been sealed until the end of Adam's 6000 year punishment came to an end.

 

[marks]

I became familiar with the words, and even did a painting of one of the bowls of wrath--that helped, incidentally! ;) The images come alive when we actually see them!

Interesting! I also have done my share of oil painting, including paintings inspired by the Revelation. And yes, I found the same thing, it helps in understanding I think!

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Perhaps I should not have "blown my own trumpet." That gets me nowhere. So let's try to get off on a new footing. I don't know you, and you don't know me.

I just get frustrated because there is this quick, knee-jerk reaction to my positions, simply because it *sounds weird.* And my real point is, "weird sounding stuff" is not weird if it really goes back before current popular eschatology.

To go against Pretrib today sounds like heresy to people in my church, and so I keep my postrib to myself, unless directly asked about it.

I'm certainly not claiming to be special. God owns the truth--none of us do. Have a nice day.

Yes, it seems that the Pre-trib position of understanding holds great sway, but it actual is built on man's fear of having to suffer through the tribulation periods that will occur. The First Tribulation period is a period often referred to as Jacob's Troubles. It is the visitation of Israel's iniquities upon the father's children in the third "age" of the existence of Israel and then on the children's children during the fourth Age of the existence of Israel. The second Tribulation Period will be associated with the little while period of the Millennium Age, where the Millennium Age is around 1,020-1,030 solar years in duration.

Because the Israelite scholars could not comprehend the length of an age, they shortened the time span understanding of the Hebrew words associated with the Hebrew root H:1755: -

H:1755 דּוֹר dowr (dore); or (shortened) dor (dore); from H:1752; properly, a revolution of time, i.e. an age or generation; also a dwelling: –– KJV - age, evermore, generation, [n-] ever, posterity

H:1752 דּוּר duwr (dure); a primitive root; properly, to gyrate (or move in a circle), i.e. to remain: –– KJV - dwell.​

to the length of a descendant generation, with the possibility that the period of time represented by H:1755 was only around 100 years in duration.

The fact is that "dowr" has the same duration as a "Day of the Lord."

Now if we know the year in which Isaac was born with respect to when Adam was created, then we can with some confidence determine that Isaac was born at the very beginning of the third age. and that the duration of the first two ages is around 2,050 solar years.

Now when we consider how the Hebrew words associated with the Hebrew Root H:1755 were translated into the Greek language, we find that they chose to use the Greek Root Word, G1074. γενεά genea which Strong chose to attribute the following meaning to: -

G:1074 γενεά genea (ghen-eh-ah'); from (a presumed derivative of) G:1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons): –– KJV - age, generation, nation, time.

G:1085 γένος genos (ghen'-os); from G:1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective): –– KJV - born, country (-man), diversity, generation, kind (-red), nation, offspring, stock.

G:1096 γίνομαι ginomai (ghin'-om-ahee); a prolongation and middle voice form of a primary verb; to cause to be ("gen"- erate), i.e. (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literal, figurative, intensive, etc.): –– KJV - arise, be assembled, be (-come, -fall, -haveself), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.​

which demonstrates the corruption of the understanding of the Israelite scholars that they taught.

Notice that the first way the KJV translated this Greek Root Word is "age," then we can safely understand that in Matthew 24:34, that Jesus was not talking a descendant generation duration as in the usual manner in which people understand this verse, but rather Jesus was referring to a time period of an "age/day of the Lord" associated with the "Summer Season" mentioned in Matthew 24:32.

Down the length of a season as mentioned in: -

Daniel 7:12: - 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.​

and Matthew 24:32 was not defined, from my understanding of the Scriptures, until John wrote the Book of revelation and particularly until he penned Revelation 20:1-3, where we learn that Satan, along with the other five beasts, will be imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit, for 1,000 years before they are released for a "time" where Satan and the five beasts, of Daniel 7:1-12 will make a last ditched effort to subvert God's Salvation plan for mankind before they are punished as told to us in Isaiah 24:21-22.

As such, Jesus was not telling His Disciples that the Temple was going to be destroyed within 40 or so years for His time with the disciples on the Mount of Olives.

The other red flag for me with your understanding was you your association of the Roman Empire with the fourth Segment of the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy. To understand why the Roman Empire cannot be associated with the Statue prophecy we have to Read Jeremiah 50 to understand that there was a two age period of time when the Babylonian kingdom in the Land of the Chaldeans did not exist. If we carefully read chapter 50, we will understand that the first king of the north will cause the land of the Chaldeans to become devastated and desolated of people for a prolong period of time outside of our ability to comprehend, namely for an age plus an age, which the scholars claim should not be understood as a finite period but an infinite period by translating "‘aḏ- dō·wr wā·ḏō·wr" as "for many generations." This being contrary to the Hebrew meaning of

H:5331 נֶצַח netsach (neh'-tsakh); or netsach (nay'-tsakh); from H:5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view): –– KJV - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

H:5329 נָצַח natsach (naw-tsakh'); a primitive root; properly, to glitter from afar, i.e. to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from H:5331), to be permanent: –– KJV - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.​

As such from our understanding of modern history of the last century, Babylon was recognised as a nation once more in 1926 but with a new name of Iraq.

Continued in my next post: -

 

[Jay Ross]

Continued from my previous post: -

Knowing that Babylon was recognised once more as having a nation in control of the Land of the Chaldeans in 1926 AD we can estimate that the nation of the Land of the Chaldeans was desolated and devastated around the year BC 120 and that for a little over 2,000 years no nation or empire exercised control over the Land of the Chaldeans. (Fulfilment, in part, of the Seventh Bowl prophecy found in Revelation 16:17-21)

A Google search of the Roman Empire gives us this summary which I have snipped from my screen display: -

​

This leads us to understand that the Roman Empire did not become the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, but that this was a political construct of the German Princes to demonise the Roman Catholic Church based, not on the Nations and empires that Had control over the land of the Chaldeans, which the focus of the Statue Prophecy is focused on, but rather the Roman Empire forced to become the Fourth Segment of this prophecy, simply because the Roman Empire logically was the next Empire after the Grecian empire to have control over the Land of Canaan, wrestle the control of their land away from the papal control that was exercised out of Rome at that time.

If we consider the History back over 2,000 years ago, we know that the Grecian Empire mover both the utilities and people from the Land of the Chaldeans and scattered them throughout their empire around the years BC 120, some 80 to 90 years before the rise of the dominance of the Roman Empire over the land around the Mediterranean Sea and beyond.

Knowing these things, we can determine that the final two segments of the Statue Prophecy is current to todays unfolding events and has been played out for us all to see.

The Statue prophecy also informs us of the time when God will establish His everlasting Kingdom during the time of the kings of the fifth kingdom. Jeremiah 50-51 also tells us that the fifth segment of the Statue prophecy will be lead by a “king of the north,” leading many nations into the Land of the Chaldeans which is presently occupied by the Nation of Iraq, to “heal the land,” which is contrary to God’s judgement and punishment for the Land of the Chaldeans.

It was your lack of understanding of these two important things among many others that caused me to say that you were not a “prophet” to be listened to on the subject matter of the End Times. It still is, in many instances, sealed up from our understanding, until we actually enter into the last Age of the Ages.


Shalom

 

[Randy Kluth]

Continued from my previous post: -

Knowing that Babylon was recognised once more as having a nation in control of the Land of the Chaldeans in 1926 AD we can estimate that the nation of the Land of the Chaldeans was desolated and devastated around the year BC 120 and that for a little over 2,000 years no nation or empire exercised control over the Land of the Chaldeans. (Fulfilment, in part, of the Seventh Bowl prophecy found in Revelation 16:17-21)

A Google search of the Roman Empire gives us this summary which I have snipped from my screen display: -

View attachment 9446​

This leads us to understand that the Roman Empire did not become the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy, but that this was a political construct of the German Princes to demonise the Roman Catholic Church based, not on the Nations and empires that Had control over the land of the Chaldeans, which the focus of the Statue Prophecy is focused on, but rather the Roman Empire forced to become the Fourth Segment of this prophecy, simply because the Roman Empire logically was the next Empire after the Grecian empire to have control over the Land of Canaan, wrestle the control of their land away from the papal control that was exercised out of Rome at that time.

If we consider the History back over 2,000 years ago, we know that the Grecian Empire mover both the utilities and people from the Land of the Chaldeans and scattered them throughout their empire around the years BC 120, some 80 to 90 years before the rise of the dominance of the Roman Empire over the land around the Mediterranean Sea and beyond.

Knowing these things, we can determine that the final two segments of the Statue Prophecy is current to todays unfolding events and has been played out for us all to see.

The Statue prophecy also informs us of the time when God will establish His everlasting Kingdom during the time of the kings of the fifth kingdom. Jeremiah 50-51 also tells us that the fifth segment of the Statue prophecy will be lead by a “king of the north,” leading many nations into the Land of the Chaldeans which is presently occupied by the Nation of Iraq, to “heal the land,” which is contrary to God’s judgement and punishment for the Land of the Chaldeans.

It was your lack of understanding of these two important things among many others that caused me to say that you were not a “prophet” to be listened to on the subject matter of the End Times. It still is, in many instances, sealed up from our understanding, until we actually enter into the last Age of the Ages.


Shalom

You seem to be unable to let go of your attack on me as a "prophet"--an office I *never* claimed to have. I claimed to have a specialization in biblical eschatology--not being a prophet! So I'm done with this argument.

Your eschatology is not something that follows a path of interpretation I'm interested in. It seems to be a form of Kabbalism, making much out of the definition of times and ages. It really doesn't fit how I interpret the Bible at all.

I do see Rome as the 4th Empire of Dan 2 and Dan 7. So we disagree--that simple.

 

[Jay Ross]

You seem to be unable to let go of your attack on me as a "prophet"--an office I *never* claimed to have. I claimed to have a specialization in biblical eschatology--not being a prophet! So I'm done with this argument.

Your eschatology is not something that follows a path of interpretation I'm interested in. It seems to be a form of Kabbalism, making much out of the definition of times and ages. It really doesn't fit how I interpret the Bible at all.

I do see Rome as the 4th Empire of Dan 2 and Dan 7. So we disagree--that simple.

So be it, I agree with you that you are not a prophet and your teachings an views on the End Times do not match scripture.

I provided the scriptural basis as to why the Roman Empire is not the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy and you have dismissed what I posted as being not the way you would interpret scripture.

I agree with you that the Roman Empire had taken dominion over the Land of Canaan, but it never had dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans.

The five segments represent the following nations which have and do have dominion over the Land of Canaan: - 1. Babylon, 2. Mede and Persians, 3. The western portion of the Grecian Empire, 4. Iraq and finally, 5. The Coalition of the Willing.

The Rock which will come down out of heaven to strike the statue on the feet has not occurred yet and nor has the Ever lasting Kingdom been established.

Also, the roman Empire is not the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12.

But your first amendment rights enables you to speak on these matters even though your knowledge is flawed on the subject matter.

Shalom

 

[Stumpmaster]

Your argument was that they are "elders," which applies to human beings. And my answer was that angels also appear in the form of human beings in the Bible.

You seem to be ignoring that angels don't need and are not subject to redemption, which the 24 elders are.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So be it, I agree with you that you are not a prophet and your teachings an views on the End Times do not match scripture.

I provided the scriptural basis as to why the Roman Empire is not the fourth segment of the Daniel 2 statue prophecy and you have dismissed what I posted as being not the way you would interpret scripture.

I agree with you that the Roman Empire had taken dominion over the Land of Canaan, but it never had dominion over the Land of the Chaldeans.

The five segments represent the following nations which have and do have dominion over the Land of Canaan: - 1. Babylon, 2. Mede and Persians, 3. The western portion of the Grecian Empire, 4. Iraq and finally, 5. The Coalition of the Willing.

The Rock which will come down out of heaven to strike the statue on the feet has not occurred yet and nor has the Ever lasting Kingdom been established.

Also, the roman Empire is not the fourth beast of Daniel 7:1-12.

But your first amendment rights enables you to speak on these matters even though your knowledge is flawed on the subject matter.

Shalom

I will assume that you don't claim to be a prophet either? Regardless, whether prophet or teacher you have to be scrutinized by the Scriptures.

It's a little more difficult scrutinizing an apocalyptic book like Daniel. Nevertheless, I don't see any requirement that the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and Dan 7 take possession of the Kingdom of Babylon--just that it assumes power in place of 3 earlier powers in the region. That has to be Rome, in my view.

You're welcome to view things as you see best. Your system of interpretation, however, cannot be validated, with respect to your sense of times or ages. In my view, there is no evidence that these eras mean what you claim they mean.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You seem to be ignoring that angels don't need and are not subject to redemption, which the 24 elders are.

No, I didn't miss that. Angels aren't *men* either, are they? And yet they appeared as men why? It is because they minister to men.

My thought is that they appear in the guise of men who normally required redemption. These angels may very well have only be representing the need for human redemption, rather than being men themselves.

Both the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders sing the praises of God's redemption of men. But the 4 living creatures most certainly are not men. So neither do the 24 elders have to be men simply because they present the truth of God's redemption of men.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Brother, all this is arguable to me, and I told you I wasn't even sure myself. I just don't see 24 elders being in heaven in this vision, when I know that the departed saints are not yet raised from the dead. Their spirits are in some kind of holding tank until the first resurrection.

Here's something to help you along with that, Randy.

After the fifth seal is opened there are seen under the altar in heaven the souls of some slain saints, and these souls of the slain saints are given white robes. White robes are also worn by the 24 elders. These 5th seal souls, who wear white robes are concerned at the time being taken to avenge their blood on those that dwell on earth and are told to rest until more souls of slain saints are added to them in fulfillment of the Divine Plan.

Rev 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? (11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

After the sixth seal is opened we have this senario. Notice, notice now that there is a distinct differentiation between angels and elders. The throne and the elders and the beasts have angels standing around them. The elders are distinct from the angels.

Rev 7:9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, (12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. (16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. (17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Some points to note:
1. As per the 5th seal disclosure white robed slain saints inhabit heaven whilst their brethren and fellowservants are still on earth.
2. As per the 6th seal disclosure innumerable white robed saints from all nations, kindreds, peoples, and tongues inhabit heaven acknowledging their salvation to God.
3. As per the elder's disclosure these innumerable white robed saints are identified as having come out of great tribulation.

It is my belief that all these white robed saints are inhabiting heaven prior to their physical resurrection with their glorified spiritual bodies. The things that take place after the 7th angel sounds include these saints living and reigning with Christ.

Rev 10:6-7 And sware by him that lives for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: (7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Timtofly]

No, I didn't miss that. Angels aren't *men* either, are they? And yet they appeared as men why? It is because they minister to men.

My thought is that they appear in the guise of men who normally required redemption. These angels may very well have only be representing the need for human redemption, rather than being men themselves.

Both the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders sing the praises of God's redemption of men. But the 4 living creatures most certainly are not men. So neither do the 24 elders have to be men simply because they present the truth of God's redemption of men.

How do you know the 4 beast are not men? The beast on the seashore and the man in 2 Thessalonians 2 is Satan. No one claims that. But it is, and they are wrong. The 24 elders are the 12 sons of Jacob, and the 12 disciples, give or take who replaced whom.

If a claim is made that a figure cannot be a human, what is that claim based on? Humanity can only be the sons of God. I still wonder how an angel can be a son of God. When God mentions using an angel, God calls it an Angel and then names it and the purpose. If a man is not called an angel, or named, as an angel, by what authority do we just default to angel?

Paul does say to be always accepting of all humans, because one may be an angel. But that was a personal encounter of you yourself meeting an angel. It is not God telling you all nondescript humans are angels. Especially when the redeemed are proclaimed sons of God. So sons of God can never be angels. Beast and beings in prophetic books of the Bible are not by default angels. Where is the proof the four beast are angels?

 

[Timtofly]

It is my belief that all these white robed saints are inhabiting heaven prior to their physical resurrection with their glorified spiritual bodies. The things that take place after the 7th angel sounds include these saints living and reigning with Christ.

The white robes are our glorified bodies. The 6th seal is the rapture of Paul: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18
15 When we say this, we base it on the Lord’s own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise;
17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.
18 So encourage each other with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:50-52
50 Let me say this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot share in the Kingdom of God, nor can something that decays share in what does not decay.
51 Look, I will tell you a secret — not all of us will die! But we will all be changed!
52 It will take but a moment, the blink of an eye, at the finalshofar. For the shofar will sound, and the dead will be raised to live forever, and we too will be changed.

The 5th seal shows the dead in Christ waiting under the alter. Paul says they are already there, waiting for the living to be caught up to meet the Lamb in the air, the 6th seal. John says they have to wait. Paul says it is in an instant. Paul is hopeful. John is watching it happen. God is patient, not willing that any should perish, waiting on that last soul to accept the Atonement. God knows the difference between John's "little while" and Paul's "instant", between the dead in Christ under the alter getting their glorified bodies and those alive getting their glorified bodies. Then all with glorified bodies await the 7th Seal being opened. This is good news, not gloom and doom. The doom is seal 4.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Then all with glorified bodies await the 7th Seal being opened.

Well contrary to what you have, Timtofly, I don't see any saints having an endoxazō pneumatikos sōma (glorified spiritual body) until the last trump sounds, which is when the change takes place. These two verses align with this.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Timtofly]

Well contrary to what you have, Timtofly, I don't see any saints having an endoxazō pneumatikos sōma (glorified spiritual body) until the last trump sounds, which is when the change takes place. These two verses align with this.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he has declared to his servants the prophets.

Paul saw through a glass darkly. 1 Corinthians 13:12
"For now we see through a glass darkly: but then shall we see face to face. Now I know in part: but then shall I know even as I am known."
Paul was not wrong. He just did not see as clearly as John did. The Last Trump is when we return with Christ, just a few years later. The harvest takes place over the whole 3.5 year period, but the NT places the harvest at the same time, meaning there are no interruptions. Satan interrupts in the middle of the week known as the Second Coming. The 7th trumpet will sound for the whole 7 days, including the 3.5 years Satan gets. Satan has been our adversary for thousands of years. The 7th Trumpet sounding will be a constant reminder to Satan that God is still in control.

The beginning of the 7th Trumpet is the completion of all things. The end of the judgments on mankind (minus those in Satan's 3.5 years). The end of the 1993 year age of the church (shortened for the elects sake, lest no one is saved during this time). The end of Adam's 6000 years of punishment. The end of Satan in control (rule is given over to Jesus Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world)

“The kingdom of the world
has become the Kingdom
of our Lord and his Messiah,
and he will rule forever and ever!”​

Revelation 10:7
"on the contrary, in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar, the hidden plan of God will be brought to completion, the Good News as he proclaimed it to his servants the prophets.”

 

[Stumpmaster]

in the days of the sound from the seventh angel when he sounds his shofar,

Trumpet, shofar, salpigx.

Greek = salpigx
sal'-pinx
Perhaps from G4535 (through the idea of quavering or reverberation); a trumpet: - trump (-et).
Total KJV occurrences: 11 [Strong]

A three and a half year harpazo? Hardly a snatching away then...

 

[Timtofly]

A three and a half year harpazo? Hardly a snatching away then...

That part is not a harvest. Beheaded people die, but their beheaded bodies will be resurrected only at one time, altogether, after Armageddon.

 

[Stumpmaster]

That part is not a harvest. Beheaded people die, but their beheaded bodies will be resurrected only at one time, altogether, after Armageddon.

Can you quote Scriptures to that effect, or are you winging it?

 

[Timtofly]

Can you quote Scriptures to that effect, or are you winging it?

Revelation 20:4-6

4 Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them received authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God, also those who had not worshipped the beast or its image and had not received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands. They came to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were over.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is anyone who has a part in the first resurrection; over him the second death has no power. On the contrary, they will be cohanim of God and of the Messiah, and they will rule with him for the thousand years.

Can you explain that people are dying any other way than Satan beheading people?

Revelation 9:6
"In those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them."

Do you know when this condition stops?

Revelation 14 explains what happens after the 3.5 years, and the harvest of the two sickles. This takes place after the 3.5 days God pours out the 7 vials. These 3.5 days are the last half of the Second Coming week. Revelation 11:3-13.

3 “Also I will give power to my two witnesses; and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, dressed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the twomenorahs standing before the Lord of the earth.
5 If anyone tries to do them harm, fire comes out of their mouth and consumes their enemies — yes, if anyone tries to harm them, that is how he must die.
6 They have the authority to shut up the sky, so that no rain falls during the period of their prophesying; also they have the authority to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
7 When they finish their witnessing, the beast coming up out of the Abyss will fight against them, overcome them and kill them;
8 and their dead bodies will lie in the main street of the great city whose name, to reflect its spiritual condition, is “S’dom” and “Egypt” — the city where their Lord was executed on a stake.
9 Some from the nations, tribes, languages and peoples see their bodies for three-and-a-half days and do not permit the corpses to be placed in a tomb.
10 The people living in the Land rejoice over them, they celebrate and send each other gifts, because these two prophets tormented them so.
11 But after the three-and-a-half days a breath of life from God entered them, they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.
12 Then the two heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies watched them.
13 In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were awestruck and gave glory to the God of heaven."

It should not be confusing that humans will die, and not be part of a harvest. Some cannot die, until the exact moment of harvest. Revelation 16:1-17

"I heard a loud voice from the sanctuary say to the seven angels, “Go, and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of God’s fury!”
2 So the first one went and poured his bowl onto the earth, and disgusting and painful sores appeared on all the people who had the mark of the beast and worshipped its image.
3 The second one poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.
4 The third one poured out his bowl into the rivers and springs of water, and they turned to blood.
5 Then I heard the angel of the waters say,
“O HaKadosh, the One who is and was,
you are just in these judgments of yours.
6 They poured out the blood of your people and your prophets,
so you have made them drink blood. They deserve it!”
7 Then I heard the altar say,
“Yes, Adonai, God of heaven’s armies,
your judgments are true and just!”
8 The fourth one poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was permitted to burn people with fire.
9 People were burned by the intense heat; yet they cursed the name of God, who had the authority over these plagues, instead of turning from their sins to give him glory.
10 The fifth one poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom grew dark. People gnawed on their tongues from the pain,
11 yet they cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and sores, and did not turn from their sinful deeds.
12 The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day of Adonai-Tzva’ot.
15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.
17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the Temple from the throne, saying, “It is done!”
18 There were flashes of lightning, voices and peals of thunder; and there was a massive earthquake, such as has never occurred since mankind has been on earth, so violent was the earthquake.
19 The great city was split into three parts, the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Bavel the Great and made her drink the wine from the cup of his raging fury."

The 7 vials end in the same earthquake that happens when the two witnesses stand up and ascend into heaven in Revelation 11:13.