The Age of God’s Grace

[prism]

The 144000 is a good example of 'spiritualizing'. And if it includes the Church today, tell me which of the twelve tribes you are in?

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(Rev 7:2-9)

And if it (the 144,000) doesn't include the Church then we have a dispensational example of Church and Israel.

 

[Insight]

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever. His nature never changes, but the way He deals with His people does.

Jesus is always presented as one learning from the Father and totally dependent upon Him for wisdom, life and love. Jesus was born from virgin Mary following her miraculous conception by the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20) the “literal” Son of God (Luke 1:35). He grew up just like any you (See *Luke 2:52), was tempted just like you and I (Matthew 4:1-11) yet he resisted sin through His Father Word (Hebrews 4:15) his wisdom to overcome was placed in Him by God his Superior! (See Matthew 16:23) his existance was dependant upon him ( See John 6:57), just as you & I. Although he had potential to sin he lived a sinless life (I Peter 2:21,22), and died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for sin (See Hebrews 7:26,27) and was raised to immortality again by his Father (See Acts 2:22,23,24 & Galatians 1:1).

The Word is truth.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Jesus is always presented as one learning from the Father and totally dependent upon Him for wisdom, life and love. Jesus was born from virgin Mary following her miraculous conception by the power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20) the “literal” Son of God (Luke 1:35). He grew up just like any you (See *Luke 2:52), was tempted just like you and I (Matthew 4:1-11) yet he resisted sin through His Father Word (Hebrews 4:15) his wisdom to overcome was placed in Him by God his Superior! (See Matthew 16:23) his existance was dependant upon him ( See John 6:57), just as you & I. Although he had potential to sin he lived a sinless life (I Peter 2:21,22), and died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for sin (See Hebrews 7:26,27) and was raised to immortality again by his Father (See Acts 2:22,23,24 & Galatians 1:1).

The Word is truth.

Insight

Beautiful comment Insight.

Packed with understanding.

 

[logabe]

The 144000 is a good example of 'spiritualizing'. And if it includes the Church today, tell me which of the twelve tribes you are in?

And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
(Rev 7:2-9)

And if it (the 144,000) doesn't include the Church then we have a dispensational example of Church and Israel.

Who is a Jew?

In Romans 2:28, 29 Paul tells us who IS a Jew and who is NOT a Jew.
God's answer to this question cannot be obtained by looking at one's
genetics, but by the lawful requirements of citizenship in a tribe of Israel.
This shows how those Jews who accepted Christ and all others who
accept Him as King-Messiah have legally joined the tribe of Judah and
are thus "Jews". On the other hand, those who have rejected Him are
NOT Jews at all, because they have revolted against the King of the
Judah and have forfeited their citizenship in Judah.

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is
circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision
is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter;
and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Who is an Israelite?

Like Jacob, we become Israelites by a change in our character. We must
all learn the same lesson that Jacob learned. It is the lesson that we are
not more powerful than God. It is the lesson that we should have faith in
the sovereignty of God and not try to help Him fulfill His promises with a
little help from the flesh. God does not need us to lie or defraud others, for
whoever does these things is only a Jacobite and not an Israelite.

We see, then, that Jacob was not born an Israelite. He became an Israelite
later in life after learning a very important lesson in the sovereignty of God.
Hence, the term “Israel” was not a matter of genealogy, but a testimony of
character. It was only later that Jacob-Israel's descendants were called
“Israelites,” to denote that they were physically descended from the man
renamed Israel.

Logabe

 

[Prentis]

Good post Logabe!

It also says...[sup]6[/sup] But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, [sup]7[/sup] nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[sup][b][/sup] [sup]8[/sup] That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

And the children of the promise are...

Acts 2:39
For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Paul continues...
[sup]29[/sup] But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Who persecuted Jesus? Jews, Romans... And Paul? Men of the nations. Who accepted them? Jews, Romans, men of the nations. Israel is according to the Spirit.

 

[Nomad]

Paul said his gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus Christ.

It's not the gospel (good news) of salvation by grace that was hidden Richard. Paul defines very clearly what was hidden. The mystery of which Paul speaks is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs of grace in Christ through the gospel. Paul clearly defines what was hidden and it's not the gospel. Where exactly does your proof-text say that it was?

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Eph 3:7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.

 

[logabe]

22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, the one
by a bondwoman, the other by a free woman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after
the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

This makes it clear that Ishmael was born after the flesh, while Isaac
was born by promise and was the child of promise.

24 Which things are an allegory; for those are the two
covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which
gendereth to bondage, which is Agar
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth
to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her
children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the
mother of us all.

Paul applies this story to the two covenants, old and new. The Old
Covenant was given at mount Sinai in Arabia, the home of Ishmael
and Hagar. In that the physical city of Jerusalem desired to remain
under the old covenant and had rejected the New Covenant, that
city with its people were to be “cast out” even as Ishmael was cast
out in the days of Abraham and Sarah. The prime evidence against
the people of Jerusalem was their persecution of the Christians, for
even as Ishmael had persecuted Isaac, so also were the Jewish
leaders in Jerusalem persecuting the Christians.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of
promise,
29 But as then, he that was born after the flesh
persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so
it is now.

Essentially, Paul is saying that those who reject Jesus and His New
Covenant were children of the flesh and were disqualified as “the seed”
every bit as much as Ishmael had been disqualified. There were many
true physical Judahites in Jesus' day and in Paul's day, but their
physical descent from Abraham could not ultimately qualify them as
the anointed seed.

Logabe

 

[Insight]

Thanks Logabe

The great allegory.

As you state correctly Ishmael represented those Jews who were under bondage (i.e - sons of the bondwoman) to the Law of Moses, and refused to accept Jesus Christ, whilst Isaac represented those who do accept Christ.

In Gal 4:29 Paul says, As he (i.e. Ishmael) that was born after the flesh persecuted him (i.e. Isaac), that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. In the days of Paul the natural Jews opposed and persecuted those who accepted Jesus, as Ishmael did Isaac in Gen 21.

I love the lesson of Isaac being weaned! At the feast Abraham gave when Isaac was weaned, his food was changed. Isaac represented the true followers of God. History reveals this food was once found only in the Jews, and their spiritual food was the Law of Moses, but when Jesus Christ came, the Jews were delivered from the curse of the Law. They were 'weaned' and given 'new food' in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And so they are yet to eat of him 1 Cor 11:24 but they will.

Therefore we Gentiles when accepting Jesus Christ, became Spiritual Jews.

I personally long for the time when Yahweh will completely regather His people. Although they are yet go through a time of great trouble, as did Ishmael, but God will hear their cry (Deut 4:30), and deliver them. He will send them Jesus Christ, their deliverer (Rom 11:26), who will save them from their troubles (Jer. 31:15,16,17).

He will bring them back into the land of Israel where He will make them a great nation because they are the 'seed of Abraham,' God's friend.

God will tell them, Ί do not this for your sakes, Ο house of Israel, but for Mine holy name's sake; which ye have profaned among the nations whither ye went" (Ezek. 36:22).

The reality is dear readers that Ishmael wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba, and almost died through lack of water! So the Jew has wandered among the nations ignorant of the water of life, which Jesus alone can provide. John 4:14.

For thier sake and ours may that water come quickly.

Insight

 

[RichardBurger]

It's not the gospel (good news) of salvation by grace that was hidden Richard. Paul defines very clearly what was hidden. The mystery of which Paul speaks is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs of grace in Christ through the gospel. Paul clearly defines what was hidden and it's not the gospel. Where exactly does your proof-text say that it was?

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Eph 3:7 Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God's grace, which was given me by the working of his power.

I disagree with you. The mystery is that God can now call a person righteous just because they believe Jesus' shed blood on the cross pays for their sins and it was certainly hidden from the eyes of the Jews.

You over simplify the mystery. It was promised to Abraham that Gentiles would be saved by the Jews. (In you shall all the nations be blessed). That was in the prophesy and certainly was not hidden. However a gospel that saves men by Faith + nothing was certainly hidden and IMHO is still hidden to most today.

 

[Prentis]

The mystery which was hidden is the NOT a gospel of lasciviousness, that God will save us but leave us as we are.

[sup]24[/sup] I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church, [sup]25[/sup] of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, [sup]26[/sup] the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints. [sup]27[/sup] To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

The hidden mystery is that Christ can live in us. The mystery is that it is possible that 'it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me'. Paul continues...

[sup]28[/sup] Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. [sup]29[/sup] To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.

Paul was striving? Yes, he ran to win, he wished to attain Christ, and grace worked in him mightily, that is grace, that which works in us to will and do what pleases God, to be as he is.

 

[Vengle]

I disagree with you. The mystery is that God can now call a person righteous just because they believe Jesus' shed blood on the cross pays for their sins and it was certainly hidden from the eyes of the Jews.

You over simplify the mystery. It was promised to Abraham that Gentiles would be saved by the Jews. (In you shall all the nations be blessed). That was in the prophesy and certainly was not hidden. However a gospel that saves men by Faith + nothing was certainly hidden and IMHO is still hidden to most today.

Yes, Nomad seems to be correct. Perhaps we have mixed up the "mystery" with the "foolishness"?

This is a good thread you guys got going here, and especially logabe's posts.

Think about what Nomad says RichardBurger:

Have we confused the thing which is foolisness to the wisdom of the world (even as were those animal sacrifices under the Old Law. For, how could they atone sin?)

Have we confused that to be the mystery when Nomad has clearly shown us what Paul said that mystery is?

Now will we even consider it?

The entire idea of sin is foolishness to the world. Man truly had to be convicted of sin before he would listen. By the groves, people on Yahoo Answers will tell you that sin is as much a fairy-tale as what they think God is.

Could it be that we are seeing one way only? The foolishness is in the world's eyes.

But the mystery is in our eyes.

It is no mystery to the world because it is all foolishness to them.

The world will not consider it so as to muse concerning it.

One has to consider something before it is a mystery to them.

 

[logabe]

Thanks Logabe

The great allegory.

As you state correctly Ishmael represented those Jews who were under bondage (i.e - sons of the bondwoman) to the Law of Moses, and refused to accept Jesus Christ, whilst Isaac represented those who do accept Christ.

In Gal 4:29 Paul says, As he (i.e. Ishmael) that was born after the flesh persecuted him (i.e. Isaac), that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. In the days of Paul the natural Jews opposed and persecuted those who accepted Jesus, as Ishmael did Isaac in Gen 21.

I love the lesson of Isaac being weaned! At the feast Abraham gave when Isaac was weaned, his food was changed. Isaac represented the true followers of God. History reveals this food was once found only in the Jews, and their spiritual food was the Law of Moses, but when Jesus Christ came, the Jews were delivered from the curse of the Law. They were 'weaned' and given 'new food' in the teachings of Jesus Christ.

And so they are yet to eat of him 1 Cor 11:24 but they will.

Therefore we Gentiles when accepting Jesus Christ, became Spiritual Jews.

I personally long for the time when Yahweh will completely regather His people. Although they are yet go through a time of great trouble, as did Ishmael, but God will hear their cry (Deut 4:30), and deliver them. He will send them Jesus Christ, their deliverer (Rom 11:26), who will save them from their troubles (Jer. 31:15,16,17).

He will bring them back into the land of Israel where He will make them a great nation because they are the 'seed of Abraham,' God's friend.

God will tell them, Ί do not this for your sakes, Ο house of Israel, but for Mine holy name's sake; which ye have profaned among the nations whither ye went" (Ezek. 36:22).

The reality is dear readers that Ishmael wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba, and almost died through lack of water! So the Jew has wandered among the nations ignorant of the water of life, which Jesus alone can provide. John 4:14.

For thier sake and ours may that water come quickly.

Insight

I like that Insight... you sound like you have eyes to see and ears to
hear... and I don't mean physically.

Those people of Judea in Jesus' day who rejected Jesus and the New
Covenant, choosing rather to remain in the Old Covenant, were
identifying with Hagar and Ishmael in Arabia. They were children of the
flesh, even as Ishmael was. They were to be cast out, because they
could not inherit the promise with the children of the free woman.

30 Nevertheless, what saith the Scripture? Cast
out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of
the bondwoman shall NOT be heir with the son
of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the
bondwoman, but of the free.

During the Old Testament times, the children of the flesh had remained
in Abraham's house, even as Ishmael in times past. However, with
Jesus' advent, the day came when the bondwoman and her son were
to be cast out. It had never been sufficient in the sight of God for a person
to be a physical descendant of Abraham. God was never satisfied with
having fleshly children. His love for them is pictured in Abraham's love for
Ishmael (Genesis 21:11), but this love did not stop Him from casting them
out, even as Abraham had to cast out his beloved son, Ishmael.

God had allowed His fleshly children (Judah) to remain in the house until
the birth of the second Isaac (Jesus). Like Isaac, Jesus was the anointed
Seed, the Son of promise, born not after the flesh, but by the miracle of a
virgin birth. For a few years He and the children of the flesh coexisted in
the same house (nation). But finally when the children of the flesh began
to persecute Him who was born after the Spirit, God sent the decree to
cast out the bondwoman and her son. The nation of Judah had not only
persecuted, rejected, and crucified Jesus, but they had also persecuted
and killed the Christians.

Logabe

 

[lawrance]

With the ten commandments god must of got it wrong the first time hey ?
Then he tossed it away and came up with grace only.
And some think their is a newer testament coming what is that going to be worshiping the golden calf.

 

[RichardBurger]

With the ten commandments god must of got it wrong the first time hey ?
Then he tossed it away and came up with grace only.
And some think their is a newer testament coming what is that going to be worshiping the golden calf.

Rubbish, The law failed because of MAN'S weakness. The Laws of God are perfect but man is not. That is why God has the gospel of grace. It allows im-perfect man to be called perfect in Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Rubbish, The law failed because of MAN'S weakness. The Laws of God are perfect but man is not. That is why God has the gospel of grace. It allows im-perfect man to be called perfect in Christ.

Actually grace empowers man to obey the law. Grace isn't a magic show...or a willful blindness on God's part...no, it is the power of a new creation to do what the old nature could not do.

 

[lawrance]

Spot on Episkopos.

 

[logabe]

Rubbish, The law failed because of MAN'S weakness. The Laws of God are perfect but man is not.

That is why God has the gospel of grace.

It allows im-perfect man to be called perfect in Christ.

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, 9,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Grace was established by God's covenant with Abraham, though we must hasten
to add that it could not be put into force until the death of the Testator, Jesus.
(Thus, John says that grace came through Jesus Christ-John 1:17.)

Grace is an act of a sovereign God. Grace is therefore "irresistible," because it did
not originate in the mind of man, nor has it any basis in flesh or the will of man.
It may be delayed by Moses' covenant, but through Abraham God has bound
Himself unconditionally by a five-fold blood covenant to bring all mankind to
salvation. The only question is when, in what order, and by what judgments
(if any) shall they be resurrected.

Grace is something that God does for undeserving people simply because He
loves them. It is something He does out of the council of His own will, and it
has nothing to do with the will of man. In this way, grace has the same basis
as election, although these are different in that election has to do with the
ORDER in which men receive their inheritance, as well as their level of
authority in the Kingdom. Men are not "elected" to be saved or unsaved
forever; the "elect" are those whom God in His sovereignty has chosen to
save FIRST. He is setting up His government in order to prepare the Kingdom
for the Church. Thus we find in Rev. 20:4-6 that these officials of the divine
government are raised up first.

Not understanding this has caused much friction throughout the centuries
between various schools of thought. Those in the past who have recognized
God's sovereignty (predestination and election) have often brought it into
disrepute by insisting that God deliberately decides NOT to save 99% of
mankind, and then to torture them for all eternity! It is little wonder that so
few people have been able to stomach such injustice. This has brought the
doctrine of election and predestination into disrepute.

In fact, some years ago a well-known theologian plainly stated that he could
not believe in election and predestination, because God's justice would then
demand that He reconcile the whole universe unto Himself! His analysis was
absolutely correct, but he chose to retain the torture theory, rather than
Bible truth.

But we must at least give this theologian credit for his consistency, unlike
(for instance) John Calvin. Calvin taught that God had predestined a tiny
few for salvation and predestined the rest for eternal torment. He was
inconsistent in that he recognized God's sovereignty in the matter of grace,
but then taught it in such a way as to portray God as an unjust tyrant who
judges men by a law not found in the writings of Moses. To know the mind
of God, we must understand both the absolute sovereignty and the
absolute justice of God.

In the final analysis, we are not saved by faith; we are saved by grace. That is,
grace is the basis of our salvation. Works are the result, and between these
two things is a great gulf fixed. On the other hand, faith is the bridge between
grace and works. Because God has promised to bring all to the land of grace,
He will, like a Good Shepherd, lead all men from the land of their own works,
across the bridge of faith. Grace to all is the goal of history. Faith is the narrow
bridge leading to that ultimate goal.

Logabe

 

[jiggyfly]

Good post Logabe, thanks for posting.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul says in Ephesians 2:8, 9,

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not
of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Grace was established by God's covenant with Abraham, though we must hasten
to add that it could not be put into force until the death of the Testator, Jesus.
(Thus, John says that grace came through Jesus Christ-John 1:17.)

Grace is an act of a sovereign God. Grace is therefore "irresistible," because it did
not originate in the mind of man, nor has it any basis in flesh or the will of man.
It may be delayed by Moses' covenant, but through Abraham God has bound
Himself unconditionally by a five-fold blood covenant to bring all mankind to
salvation. The only question is when, in what order, and by what judgments
(if any) shall they be resurrected.

Grace is something that God does for undeserving people simply because He
loves them. It is something He does out of the council of His own will, and it
has nothing to do with the will of man. In this way, grace has the same basis
as election, although these are different in that election has to do with the
ORDER in which men receive their inheritance, as well as their level of
authority in the Kingdom. Men are not "elected" to be saved or unsaved
forever; the "elect" are those whom God in His sovereignty has chosen to
save FIRST. He is setting up His government in order to prepare the Kingdom
for the Church. Thus we find in Rev. 20:4-6 that these officials of the divine
government are raised up first.

Not understanding this has caused much friction throughout the centuries
between various schools of thought. Those in the past who have recognized
God's sovereignty (predestination and election) have often brought it into
disrepute by insisting that God deliberately decides NOT to save 99% of
mankind, and then to torture them for all eternity! It is little wonder that so
few people have been able to stomach such injustice. This has brought the
doctrine of election and predestination into disrepute.

In fact, some years ago a well-known theologian plainly stated that he could
not believe in election and predestination, because God's justice would then
demand that He reconcile the whole universe unto Himself! His analysis was
absolutely correct, but he chose to retain the torture theory, rather than
Bible truth.

But we must at least give this theologian credit for his consistency, unlike
(for instance) John Calvin. Calvin taught that God had predestined a tiny
few for salvation and predestined the rest for eternal torment. He was
inconsistent in that he recognized God's sovereignty in the matter of grace,
but then taught it in such a way as to portray God as an unjust tyrant who
judges men by a law not found in the writings of Moses. To know the mind
of God, we must understand both the absolute sovereignty and the
absolute justice of God.

In the final analysis, we are not saved by faith; we are saved by grace. That is,
grace is the basis of our salvation. Works are the result, and between these
two things is a great gulf fixed. On the other hand, faith is the bridge between
grace and works. Because God has promised to bring all to the land of grace,
He will, like a Good Shepherd, lead all men from the land of their own works,
across the bridge of faith. Grace to all is the goal of history. Faith is the narrow
bridge leading to that ultimate goal.

Logabe

Very good! The elect are to rule over the saved ones from the nations. Election is unto glory. Obedience is unto salvation.

 

[bling]

If anyone was saved from Adam on it was by grace.