The Age of God’s Grace

[dan p]

If anyone was saved from Adam on it was by grace.

Hi , and where was there Grace in Genesis ?? Where is that verse in Genesis ??

Most , FAIL to see that there is Grace !!

Then there is the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

Acts 20:24 !! They are different !!

dan p

 

[bling]

Hi , and where was there Grace in Genesis ?? Where is that verse in Genesis ??

Most , FAIL to see that there is Grace !!

Then there is the Dispensation of the Grace of God !!

Acts 20:24 !! They are different !!

dan p

Was Abel lost?
Was Noah lost?
Was Abraham lost?

Things did change with Christ going to the cross, but not with Paul.

 

[lawrance]

Rubbish, The law failed because of MAN'S weakness. The Laws of God are perfect but man is not. That is why God has the gospel of grace. It allows im-perfect man to be called perfect in Christ.

The Law is still there bro ! Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it.

 

[RichardBurger]

The Law is still there bro ! Jesus Christ did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfil it.

I agree that the law is still there for the un-believers. Those that have been buried with Christ by the Holy Spirit are dead to the law and therefore no longer under the law.

It looks like you are a Judiazer trying to get the children of God back under the law so they will fall from grace.

 

[lawrance]

I agree that the law is still there for the un-believers. Those that have been buried with Christ by the Holy Spirit are dead to the law and therefore no longer under the law.

It looks like you are a Judiazer trying to get the children of God back under the law so they will fall from grace.

The ten commandments state what is required in the love of God and neighbour. the first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbour.
They are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them.
The Law has not been abolished.
'If you would enter life, keep the commandments.'
Their full meaning is revealed in Christ.

 

[aspen]

The Age of God’s Grace:

Imagine that you are standing on a plain and 20 miles ahead is a mountain.

Now imagine that as you look over that mountain you see the top of another mountain behind it.

You can see the plain, the top of the first mountain and the top of the second mountain.

But you can’t see what is between the first mountain and the second.

In the view of dispensational studies, the area between the mountains is Paul’s gospel. It was not seen in the O.T. Nor was it seen in the first 4 books of the N.T.

Paul said his gospel was hidden in God and revealed to him by Jesus Christ.

Eph 3:8-12
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
NKJV

It can be seen that in Acts 3:21 Peter is proclaiming things made known by the prophets since the world began. --- In contrast, in the book of Romans, 16:25, Paul is proclaiming things kept secret since the world began.

Something made known cannot be a secret and something kept secret has not been made known. Notice that Peter proclaimed the crucifixion of Jesus as something for the Jews to repent of (Acts 2) where Paul proclaimed that he gloried in the cross of Christ (Gal 6:11-15).

To those that study the scriptures from a dispensational view, Peter and Paul proclaimed two different messages.

Dispensationalism?! And Christian leaders wonder why Americans compartmentalize their faith and their lives........if you teach people to artificially compartmentalize the Bible, what do you expect????

BTW, God's Grace does not belong to an Age......His Grace is part of His character and has existed for infinity

 

[RichardBurger]

Dispensationalism?! And Christian leaders wonder why Americans compartmentalize their faith and their lives........if you teach people to artificially compartmentalize the Bible, what do you expect????

BTW, God's Grace does not belong to an Age......His Grace is part of His character and has existed for infinity

So you deny that the gospel of grace given to Paul by Jesus was hidden in God and revealed for this age of grace as Paul wrote.

The scripture says we are to "rightly divide" the word of God, not blend it all togather to make a man made theology.

There is only one faith, trust, belief and that is, that Jesus shed His blood on the cross and paid for all the sins of the world, but only those that believe it will be saved.

You confuse God's grace shown throughout scripture to some, with God's plan for salvation for all in this dispensation.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul was given authority to lay on hands to receive the grace of God. Paul was a dispenser of grace, as it were.

Grace is an empowering of the believer in the inner man to walk as Jesus walked....at least in potential. Obedience is still necessary to ACTUALLY follow through.

The gifts of the Spirit are imparted through grace. The charismas (gift) are given through charis (grace).

It is a wonder that people who no longer believe in the gifts of the Spirit in use in every day life yet still believe in grace. This is certainly because of a wrong understanding of grace...or else they would also deny the empowering from heaven that the gifts are a DEMONSTRATION of.

So you deny that the gospel of grace given to Paul by Jesus was hidden in God and revealed for this age of grace as Paul wrote.

The scripture says we are to "rightly divide" the word of God, not blend it all togather to make a man made theology.

There is only one faith, trust, belief and that is, that Jesus shed His blood on the cross and paid for all the sins of the world, but only those that believe it will be saved.

You confuse God's grace shown throughout scripture to some, with God's plan for salvation for all in this dispensation.

A person is not saved by believing in a plan that makes them saved.

 

[RichardBurger]

Paul was given authority to lay on hands to receive the grace of God. Paul was a dispenser of grace, as it were.

A person is not saved by believing in a plan that makes them saved.

So you do not believe the plan that God has for this dispensation grace so you believe in the plan that man has put togather. Sounds like a false religion to me.

 

[Episkopos]

So you do not believe the plan that God has for this dispensation grace so you believe in the plan that man has put togather. Sounds like a false religion to me.

God doesn't play games. In your scheme a person has either to be perfect or else be able to spell rumpelskilzten or something in order to get saved.

The righteous requirements of the law are just so...they are righteous. God is also righteous. So any scheme that avoids MAKING the believer ACTUALLY righteous is well...unrighteous!

So God qualifies us for heaven when we turn in our old sinful natures for a divine nature that doesn't sin. So those who are ACTUALLY in Christ do not sin. They are walking by grace (power) that is of Christ. Otherwise we are doomed to sin because we are on our own.

Your scheme makes God unrighteous so that He prefers some sinners to others....because they get His name right!!!???

God then would be a respecter of persons and a narcissistic receiver of compliments...which He most certainly is NOT.

Read the bible again, but this time seeing God as NOT a respecter of persons...and a hater pf sycophants and yes-men.

(syc·o·phant (s k-f nt, s k-) n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people)

 

[RichardBurger]

God doesn't play games. In your scheme a person has either to be perfect or else be able to spell rumpelskilzten or something in order to get saved.

The righteous requirements of the law are just so...they are righteous. God is also righteous. So any scheme that avoids MAKING the believer ACTUALLY righteous is well...unrighteous!

So God qualifies us for heaven when we turn in our old sinful natures for a divine nature that doesn't sin. So those who are ACTUALLY in Christ do not sin. They are walking by grace (power) that is of Christ. Otherwise we are doomed to sin because we are on our own.

Your scheme makes God unrighteous so that He prefers some sinners to others....because they get His name right!!!???

God then would be a respecter of persons and a narcissistic receiver of compliments...which He most certainly is NOT.

Read the bible again, but this time seeing God as NOT a respecter of persons...and a hater pf sycophants and yes-men.

(syc·o·phant (s k-f nt, s k-) n. A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people)

There is no way for a man living in sinful flesh to make him/her self righteous. That is what the Jews were trying to do.

Romans 10:2-3
2 For I bear them witness (the Jews ) that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they (the Jews) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
NKJV

You are seeking to establish your own righteousness by what you do; not by what God has done on the cross.

You said, "God doesn't play games. In your scheme a person has either to be perfect or else be able to spell rumpelskilzten or something in order to get saved."

No where have I been the one to advocate being perfect in the sinful flesh, that is what you, and some others, are doing. I have said that the gospel of grace saves sinful man. What is requred for sinful man is to believe God. When God (in the scriptures) sent Paul to the Gentiles his requirement for salvation is that you believe in the work that Jesus did on the cross.

Under grace what is required is placing belief, faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross. So your statement that I am advocating being perfect in the sinful flesh is all wrong but you will never admit it because of your ego. You just have to set yourself up as being better than me.

 

[Vengle]

RichardBurger said, "There is no way for a man living in sinful flesh to make him/her self righteous."

He also said, "That is what the Jews were trying to do." They were trying to do it by their own strength Richard. It is a mistake to think that means it cannot be done in God's strength and a horrible failure to realize that God will give you that strength and power if you stop trying to be the master of your own vessel and surrender it completely to Him.

Look at what you said in that first quote above. That is correct for one that continues to live in the flesh. But if you think you have to continue to live in the flesh just because you are not literally dead yet you are woefully wrong and have ignored much scripture. And if you cease to live in the flesh your body will follow because it has no other choice and the spirit will then give life to your mortal body in the sense of holiness and usefulness now as an instrument used in the service of God. Your body is a vessel and you are required to let it become a vessel of honor or you are not listening to God.

Ponder this: Romans 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

That leaving your flesh to die on the cross with Christ merely means as the above verse says, "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin." If you are dead to sin then you will not be practicing sin. Instead, you will be free to, "reckon ye also yourselves ... alive to God through Christ Jesus our Lord." And then you will be able to say as did Isaiah, "Here am I; send me." and you will be fully there at God's service, nothing in you or about you failing to participate. Spiritually you will have been raised from a cripple to a graceful gazelle able to leap high in the service of God.

 

[Episkopos]

I agree that the law is still there for the un-believers. Those that have been buried with Christ by the Holy Spirit are dead to the law and therefore no longer under the law.

It looks like you are a Judiazer trying to get the children of God back under the law so they will fall from grace.

You are confusing Paul and his lack of detail about the law..

So we who are walking by grace in the new nature are dead to the old law nature that once ruled in us.

But the written law remains to show others that we in fact obey the law,

Many have been confounded by Paul's way of describing the law/

The written law and the law of the flesh are made to be one thing by Paul. But to understand Paul one must see that there is a distinction between the written law and the law of human nature.

So we who are under grace are dead to the law....not the written law...but the law of sin and death that the old nature forces us to belong to.

 

[RichardBurger]

You are confusing Paul and his lack of detail about the law..

So we who are walking by grace in the new nature are dead to the old law nature that once ruled in us.

But the written law remains to show others that we in fact obey the law,

Many have been confounded by Paul's way of describing the law/

The written law and the law of the flesh are made to be one thing by Paul. But to understand Paul one must see that there is a distinction between the written law and the law of human nature.

So we who are under grace are dead to the law....not the written law...but the law of sin and death that the old nature forces us to belong to.

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Having faith in Jesus does indeed delivery the child of God from their body of death but that does not say their flesh becomes righteous.

How do you see "but with the flesh the law of sin."?

 

[Vengle]

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Having faith in Jesus does indeed delivery the child of God from their body of death but that does not say their flesh becomes righteous.

How do you see "but with the flesh the law of sin."?

So the way you interpret that your Paul has two masters, hey? :lol:

See that Paul said, "With my mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh [should I remain in it] the law of sin."

Because then it fits to what else he said, Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

This idea which makes Paul out to be yet an "O wretched man that I am" in Christ is shear foolishness. It is border-line faithless and certainly fails to understand the wonderful things that are happening to us and for us in Christ.

 

[aspen]

So you deny that the gospel of grace given to Paul by Jesus was hidden in God and revealed for this age of grace as Paul wrote.

Nothing is hidden in God - we are called to be a light on a hill. Hidden knowledge is Gnosticism.

The scripture says we are to "rightly divide" the word of God, not blend it all togather to make a man made theology.

And if you believe that means we are supposed to divide church history up into dispensations you are as deluded as Darby. No doctrine that is actually accepted within Protestantism is so blantantly man made.

There is only one faith, trust, belief and that is, that Jesus shed His blood on the cross and paid for all the sins of the world, but only those that believe it will be saved.

Yep. Are you claiming that belief in doctrine rather than the reality of Christ's life and work on the Cross leads to salvation? Doctrine does not save anyone.

You confuse God's grace shown throughout scripture to some, with God's plan for salvation for all in this dispensation.

Where is the word 'dispensation' found in the Bible? Are you denying John 3:16? Christ died for the world - everyone who ever lived - it is not restricted to man made ideas of dispensations.

 

[Vengle]

Actually grace empowers man to obey the law. Grace isn't a magic show...or a willful blindness on God's part...no, it is the power of a new creation to do what the old nature could not do.

Aspen's post of Richard Burger in #56 shows Richard to speak correctly and using good sound reasoning.

You make good points also and also show sound reasoning.

What I am hoping to get everyone to see is that you would not be so far apart if you solved the err in this flesh nature idea.

Does Paul speak of our nature as a human of flesh and blood as corrupt? 1 Corinthians 11:14 "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

No, he does not else he would draw nothing good from it as you see he has done at 1 Corinthians 11: 14 and as he does many other places in his writings.

Therefore, it is clear that when he speaks as he did at Romans chapter seven he is talking about sin's nature rather than something which is actually a permanent part of our own nature.

Sin is personified only so that we might understand it better but it is actually only the abstract quality of ignorance of God which allows for and produces err.

Sin is like a sickness of our mind and heart. A spiritual malady. It is not unrecoverable in our bodies, it is just that we did not know the cure as we ignored God to focus on self.

Christ has shown us that cure. And if we obediently surrender ourselves completely to Christ to emulate his example to us then God will also eventually undo the penalty of death upon us.

Yes, Paul did say, Hebrews 9:27 "... it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
Paul also said, 1 Corinthians 11:31 "... if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."

It is a similar situation with literal death but of course at God's time for it.

Many will live into that thousand years not having died a literal death but only having committed themselves to the figurative death of the flesh for the purpose of ceasing to be slaves of sin so that they then presented their bodies as a sacrifice holy and acceptable for use by God in His holy temple.

I would bet you even know the scriptures I have in mind in what i just said there if you only think about it.

Until this sin nature confusion with our literal bodies is cleared away there is going to be little agreement between the sides of issues such as is being discussed in this thread.

One must correct the flaws in the foundation before having a building all can agree is stable.

 

[RichardBurger]

Romans 7:16-23

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
NKJV

I see what Paul has said because it is the same for me. I realize that in my flesh nothing good dwells. However I also see the Jesus has set me free from the sin that dewlls in my flesh. Jesus has not made my flesh sinless.

However, I see some on this forum that can not see the sin that dwells in their hearts and claim to no longer have any sins of the flesh.

For me, my spirit is perfect "in Christ" and "in Him" I no longer have sins of the flesh to worry about. They are all covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. --- But for some, they can not seem to trust in the shed blood for their righteousness; they trust in their earned righteousness that they think they have by works to save them.

 

[Vengle]

Romans 7:16-23

16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.

20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
NKJV

I see what Paul has said because it is the same for me. I realize that in my flesh nothing good dwells. However I also see the Jesus has set me free from the sin that dewlls in my flesh. Jesus has not made my flesh sinless.

However, I see some on this forum that can not see the sin that dwells in their hearts and claim to no longer have any sins of the flesh.

For me, my spirit is perfect "in Christ" and "in Him" I no longer have sins of the flesh to worry about. They are all covered by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. --- But for some, they can not seem to trust in the shed blood for their righteousness; they trust in their earned righteousness that they think they have by works to save them.

I just explained all of that in another thread.

This that I am saying now is not that explanation I gave, but what you are believing makes Paul's words contradict themselves in places. You just do not realize it.

What I did explain in that other thread is that that very statement ("For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.") is true even of the man who begins as perfect but then turns to ignoring God. (Even as with Adam and Eve.)

All it takes to make that so is for a man to ignore God and seek to do good based upon his own level of knowledge and wisdom.

Even for a perfect man who suddenly chooses to ignore God, Jeremiah 10:23 is true.

Fulness of humility would see that. Fulness of humility would never have a man seeking to be like God in that manner.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."

The question is, 'Are you humble enough to learn this? Or, will you cling to the attitude of Adam (thinking you can be like God someday with a new body) so that it prevents you from seeing?

Will you continue to blame it all on your body rather than on your attitude?

Or will you accept that it will always be true that only one is good and that one is God and all that is good comes from him?

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.'

Even Jesus rejected being called good and he was perfect: Luke 18:19 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

Do you get that the point is that there can be no good apart from God for he is the standard for what is good and bad and not you yourself?

If you do then you finally understand why there is no good in you or of you and never will be and you are beginning to think like Paul.

Even Jesus rejected seeing himself as the standard for what is good.

 

[Episkopos]

Romans 7:24-25
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Having faith in Jesus does indeed delivery the child of God from their body of death but that does not say their flesh becomes righteous.

How do you see "but with the flesh the law of sin."?

The power of the carnal nature leads one into sin. The power of life in Christ (grace) leads us into the perfect will of God so that we cannot sin.

The gnostic heresy that John fought so hard to expose claims that we sin in the flesh but we are perfect in the Spirit...so that it is no longer OUR responsibility. That is a doctrine from hell of course.

Jesus didn't sin...and neither will His followers who are empowered by Him.

Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.