The Age of God’s Grace

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Yes, I have (experienced) salvation TODAY. It is not a salvation that I must earn over time by my works. Yes I am content in the work of Jesus on the cross that made me reconciled before God. I can rest in HIS work on the cross.

Your disppointment is reserved for the day you are separated from your flesh and God, because you trusted in your works and not the work of God on the cross. Works are not of grace.

Unlike you, I am totally convinced (persuaded) that my salvation is a gift from God because I believe Him; I believe the message of Grace.

You said "Grace gives us actual empowerment to miraculous experience...today." --- Yes He does, I miraculous experienced His salvation by faith.

So you agree that grace is the power to be exactly as Jesus...holy and perfect?
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
You are creating a false set of choices. The gospel is neither of your polemics. It is the POWER of life in Christ exhibited for the world to see and glorify God. Salvation needs to be seen today by the world. Otherwise we are not salt and light in this world but just more deluded religious fanciers of our own bright futures.

And you are creating a gospel of works.

The gospel of grace is the power of God to save sinner. If salvation is by the power of man then throw away all of Paul's letters.

In this age of God's grace we are to see Jesus' work on the cross. That is the only thing that will save in this age.

Jesus said, to the Jews, that the Jews were to be a light unto the world. However, Jesus did not say it to the Gentiles.

But you can't see this because you blend everything in the scriptures together.
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
So you agree that grace is the power to be exactly as Jesus...holy and perfect?

My sinful flesh will never be exactly like Jesus..... holy and perfect.

Only my spirit that has been reborn and placed "in Christ" is holy and perfect. My spirit can not sin because it has been born of God. However, my flesh has not been reborn and is still a body of sin and will sin.

But you want to claim you are holy and perfect by your works of your flesh.

Stand still and trust in Jesus' shed blood on the cross and you will see His salvation.

When God's people (the Jews) stood at the Red Sea Moses did not say "go bulid boats." He said the following:

Exodus 14:11-14
11 Then they said to Moses, "Because there were no graves in Egypt, have you taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you so dealt with us, to bring us up out of Egypt?
12 Is this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, 'Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians'? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness."
13 And Moses said to the people,"Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.
14 The Lord will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."

NKJV

Religious men/women will not stand still and wait on God's salavtion. They will build a boat of works and think it will save them.
 

7angels

Active Member
Aug 13, 2011
624
88
28
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
let me ask both richardburger and episkopos a few questions.
what have YOU done for the kingdom?
what kind of signs, wonders, and miracles has God used you for?
how often do you hear from God?
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
And you are creating a gospel of works.

The gospel of grace is the power of God to save sinner. If salvation is by the power of man then throw away all of Paul's letters.

In this age of God's grace we are to see Jesus' work on the cross. That is the only thing that will save in this age.

Jesus said, to the Jews, that the Jews were to be a light unto the world. However, Jesus did not say it to the Gentiles.

But you can't see this because you blend everything in the scriptures together.

A gospel of power! We are actually created to do the works of God. We are not created to be saved. You testify of dead works because that is all you know.

My sinful flesh will never be exactly like Jesus..... holy and perfect.

Only my spirit that has been reborn and placed "in Christ" is holy and perfect. My spirit can not sin because it has been born of God. However, my flesh has not been reborn and is still a body of sin and will sin.

But you want to claim you are holy and perfect by your works of your flesh.

Stand still and trust in Jesus' shed blood on the cross and you will see His salvation.

When God's people (the Jews) stood at the Red Sea Moses did not say "go bulid boats." He said the following:

Exodus 14:11-14
11 Then they said to Moses, "Because there were no graves in Egypt, have you taken us away to die in the wilderness? Why have you so dealt with us, to bring us up out of Egypt?
12 Is this not the word that we told you in Egypt, saying, 'Let us alone that we may serve the Egyptians'? For it would have been better for us to serve the Egyptians than that we should die in the wilderness."
13 And Moses said to the people,"Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the Lord, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.
14 The Lord will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace."

NKJV

Religious men/women will not stand still and wait on God's salavtion. They will build a boat of works and think it will save them.

Maybe your flesh is sinful. But a disciple of Christ has Jesus within making him a TEMPLE of God. We have this treasure in EARTHEN (fleshly) vessels.

let me ask both richardburger and episkopos a few questions.
what have YOU done for the kingdom?
what kind of signs, wonders, and miracles has God used you for?
how often do you hear from God?

Boasting is irrelevant to this discussion. Suffice to say that to be born from God is to actually abide in light. I have an ongoing miraculous relationship with the Father through Christ.

Believing in a bible scheme has nothing to do with Christianity. It is against biblical teaching to rely on biblical teaching as interpreted by those who are looking to save themselves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Those who don't understand the gospel would make Jesus a sinner because he was a man. But Jesus took on the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Everyone (including deluded believers) thinks that flesh=sin. Jesus came to change that. Man was created perfect in the flesh. God said His creation was GOOD not sinful.

Jesus is redeeming men AWAY FROM sin and into HIS likeness while still in this flesh. Thus the flesh is made holy because it sanctifies what it is carrying...Jesus Christ.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Episkopos

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
let me ask both richardburger and episkopos a few questions.
what have YOU done for the kingdom?
what kind of signs, wonders, and miracles has God used you for?
how often do you hear from God?

As for me I am on forums teaching the gospel of grace even when those on these forums will not accept the words in the scriptures I quote. I have been doing this for as long as there has been an internet.

I try to give to those that God leads me to give. I try to be mercyful as God leads.

I am saying this, not to boast of what I do like others do, but to answer your question.

I am not like the others here. I am not going to grandiose myself by saying I am good like God. Even Jesus, when they called Him good did not accept that but said only one is good, God.
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
Believing in a bible scheme has nothing to do with Christianity. It is against biblical teaching to rely on biblical teaching as interpreted by those who are looking to save themselves.

Aren't you doing this to?

The scriptures are God's words for us and we are to believe them. If a person does not believe the shed blood of Jesus on the cross saves them, as taught by Paul, then they are not believing God, not trusting God, not having confidence in the work of God on the cross and are therefore not saved.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Aren't you doing this to?

The scriptures are God's words for us and we are to believe them. If a person does not believe the shed blood of Jesus on the cross saves them, as taught by Paul, then they are not believing God, not trusting God, not having confidence in the work of God on the cross and are therefore not saved.

We are not saved by declaring ourselves believers in the blood of Jesus to cover us. That is a pipe dream. We are saved through repentance followed by a new life in Christ with the power (grace) to walk just as Christ. As He IS so are WE in this world.
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
Playing a game with the scripture is not of God. Where did you tell me you are just playing a game?

I don't think God wants a person to play games with His words. I really don't think a person who is claiming to be like Christ will play games with His words in the scriptures.

Your game may send a person to Hell.

Your speaking to me with kindness is snake venom. It also shows who you are

OK. I'm sorry I upset you. :wub:
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
As for me I am on forums teaching the gospel of grace even when those on these forums will not accept the words in the scriptures I quote. I have been doing this for as long as there has been an internet.

I try to give to those that God leads me to give. I try to be mercyful as God leads.

I am saying this, not to boast of what I do like others do, but to answer your question.

I am not like the others here. I am not going to grandiose myself by saying I am good like God. Even Jesus, when they called Him good did not accept that but said only one is good, God.

You are failing again to see the gospel and the exchanged life of one who has surrendered to God in Christ. In ME dwells no good thing, but Christ is working perfectly through me...only you are thinking that YOU have to be good like God or else you just give up and blame your body for sinning constantly...as in...I didn't hit you ma'am, it was my body !!!!
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
OK. I'm sorry I upset you. :wub:


Why do you wish to portray me as upset? Does that make you feel better?

I am not the one you should repent to. You trample under foot the gospel of Grace.

To me, what you did is just an example of the love that the religious say they have for others.

I get so tired of people who are so illiterate in the scriptures that they just want to shot the messenger. These people refuse to accept the righteousness freely given to those that believe and they certainly don’t want others to see it.
 

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
You are failing again to see the gospel and the exchanged life of one who has surrendered to God in Christ. In ME dwells no good thing, but Christ is working perfectly through me...only you are thinking that YOU have to be good like God or else you just give up and blame your body for sinning constantly...as in...I didn't hit you ma'am, it was my body !!!!

You are failing to see the gospel of God's grace that saves sinners who live in flesh bodies with a sinful nature and will sin. You say you stop sinning in the flesh by your works; unless you can say, before God and men that you no longer sin in the flesh your idea of sinless perfection in the flesh is just a pipe dream. All men sin in the flesh.

Romans 7: 7 - 25 ---- Sin's Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin

Note: Paul did not say he WAS carnal. He said he IS carnal.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Note: Paul does not say the sin in his flesh no longer dwells in him.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

Note: Paul does not say that sin no longer dwells in him.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Paul does not say that his flesh no longer sins. It is some on this forum that are saying that.
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
I think part of my problem is that I had to be the wall of faith in my childhood family and of course my own family for so very many years.

I came from a family of six that was torn apart by drunken brawling and if I had not been as strong in faith as I was since a young child I cannot help but wonder what would have become of my mother and my siblings. Then I raised six children of my own.

I had to sit and talk to my mother for the longest time to help her get up and get going spiritually and I had to take that same time with each of my siblings as they had all given up. And they were confused and lacked the knowledge to pull themselves out.

Then wouldn't you know my wife left me for another man and a life of drugs and she began bringing my children down. I had the custody of them but one by one she enticed them to her loose and wild life-style, not because she did not care but that she had no idea how to care properly for them and thus introduced them to a lifestyle that nearly cause me to loose them. My oldest is in a nursing home due to it having fried his brain with drugs which he began taking with her. I cry concerning him all of the time. I have to leave him in God's hands as he has little ability to communicate and lives in an imaginary world speaking to things that are not there. but I have managed to stabilize the rest of my children with God's help. And I have accomplished none of this by being too insistent on protocol. If i had they would never have wanted to listen to me.

Today things are tremendously better and all my siblings and my mother and all of my children but for my oldest are doing well and their faith is strong.

I am a veteran of the toughest of spiritual warfare you could imagine. the things I could tell you from having to search the streets of Toledo Ohio entering in among gangs in search of my daughter and one of my sons (one in the bloods and the other in the crypts).

I almost died from the grief in my heart but for God.

So i may seem a bit course to you but please believe me when i tell you I am not. I may be war scared but I am in no way a hard hearted person.
 

Episkopos

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2011
12,806
19,248
113
65
Montreal
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You are failing to see the gospel of God's grace that saves sinners who live in flesh bodies with a sinful nature and will sin. You say you stop sinning in the flesh by your works; unless you can say, before God and men that you no longer sin in the flesh your idea of sinless perfection in the flesh is just a pipe dream. All men sin in the flesh.

Romans 7: 7 - 25 ---- Sin's Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "You shall not covet."
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.

12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin

Note: Paul did not say he WAS carnal. He said he IS carnal.

15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

Note: Paul does not say the sin in his flesh no longer dwells in him.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.

Note: Paul does not say that sin no longer dwells in him.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Paul does not say that his flesh no longer sins. It is some on this forum that are saying that.

All men who are not in Christ sin in the flesh. Those who are in Christ do not sin. In Christ there is no sin. Are you saying that we sin IN CHRIST? This shows that you have not yet experienced the abiding in Christ.

You are advocating an old testament type of walk that is under the law of sin and death. But you can be set free in Christ. He has come to set the prisoners free and open the blind eyes.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ignore the bible and ignore my testimony if you wish. Most people do!!!
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Posting on a message board is meant to be an amusing distraction - a hobby - it is not living out the Christian life / witnessing the gospel / a substitute for sharing Christ with people!

The Christian life is not arguing with strangers about the minutia of doctrine. It is not presenting sterilized, cold, out of context facts about the life of Christ. Nor does it involve conquering your opponent with your superior knowledge of scripture.

The Christian life is loving God and the people around you in every context and in real life! It is a hands on faith! If the knowledge isn't experienced and lived out RichardBurger, it dies on the vine! Pick up you cross / troubles / circumstances / toils / painful experiences AND follow me / love / love / love!

A real relationship is required to promote a real, saving relationship with Christ! Typing on the computer is what we do when we are waiting to love the people in our lives.
 

Vengle

New Member
Sep 22, 2011
921
27
0
Ohio
Note: Paul does not say that sin no longer dwells in him.

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Paul does not say that his flesh no longer sins. It is some on this forum that are saying that.

Now Richard please think about this very simple thing you missed when i point it out to you. I only need this part of your post as the simple thing you missed applies to it all.

I beg you please consider:

All that Paul said there was before what?

Romans 7:24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

In the next verse he tells you who shall as in future tense deliver him and guess what else Paul told us Richard?

Colossians 1:13 "[God] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"


2 Corinthians 1:9-10 "But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead: Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;"

Paul was talking about the man he was before Christ in chapter 7 Richard for he saw himself and all in Christ as delivered from the powers of darkness and there having no excuse any longer to sin.


Richard, pay attention to what the next verse here says:

Romans 8:11-12 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."
 

Prentis

New Member
May 25, 2011
2,047
92
0
31
Montreal, Qc
All men who are not in Christ sin in the flesh. Those who are in Christ do not sin. In Christ there is no sin. Are you saying that we sin IN CHRIST? This shows that you have not yet experienced the abiding in Christ.

You are advocating an old testament type of walk that is under the law of sin and death. But you can be set free in Christ. He has come to set the prisoners free and open the blind eyes.

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Ignore the bible and ignore my testimony if you wish. Most people do!!!

[sup]5[/sup] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [sup]6[/sup] He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Quite opposite of the false gospel presented by Richard, according to which you know you're in him if you know you're in him, but not by the fruit, because according to Richard, it is impossible that we bear the heavenly fruit!

What kind of a gospel is that?

Colossians 1:13 "[God] Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

You mean Paul was already translated into the kingdom, before he died??!?!?!?! It cannot be!!!! :eek:

:D