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The Age of God’s Grace

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, Oct 10, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    It is pretty obvious that due to the way many interpret Romans chapter 7, they also misinterpret the following: Romans 8:10 “And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”

    What does that mean?

    It is pretty obvious Paul meant the same thing he said to the Colossians church:

    Colossians 3:5-7 “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.”

    How can I say that for sure? By what Paul said in verse 13 of that same chapter 8 to the Romans:

    Romans 8:13 “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

    Galatians 6:7 “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

    So please listen: Romans seven is Paul speaking illustratively as the powerless man that he was before Christ.

    I certainly sympathize that this is a difficult thing to find out after having lived for years not knowing it, even as I myself did. It is a shocker to find out.

    But if we look at the Old Law we learn why.

    Our bodies are like as the utensils which had to be purified, cleansed ceremonially before they could enter the temple. Even unclean persons could not enter the temple. And this was made clear to us by that Law using hyperbole requirements (exaggerated pictures) such as a woman being unclean during her period. A woman could not enter the temple while on her period.

    Our bodies are vessels which must be made honorable before God will use us in sacred service.

    And this is the single most important teaching for us to understand. For God will forgive us much if we but get this one right. He will be patient with us for not understanding the exact identity of Jesus or the Holy Spirit if we can only get this one right. He will be patient with us for not understanding hell or heaven if we only would get this teaching right.

    It is the most important teaching of Christ.

    Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
     
  2. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    i would like an interpretation of each verse please. i think you are in error. you are grabbing verses from the bible without looking at how they go with your argument or i am misinterpreting what you are saying.

    for example Matthew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

    is talking of 2 types of christians. those that are saved and those that are overcomers. if you look at matthew you will see that matthew writes about the kingdom of the heavens and not very much about the kingdom of God. the kingdom of the heavens is a part of the kingdom of God and mostly concerning the overcoming christian and the saved christian and not the unbeliever. matthew refers the gentiles and nations but mostly it is symbolic. Matthew 7:22-23 has a lot of meaning involved and if you don't understand what i am saying above you will disregard it as nonsense.

    what you are arguing about above is not about grace as it is about being saved and being an overcomer in Christ. this debate is getting mixed up with salvation and being and overcomer in Christ. grace gives you what you do not deserve. grace is not here just to forgive our sins but to help teach us to keep from sinning. also grace is offered to everyone but not everyone is given grace. grace is not earned but given freely to those that are humble. most people don't walk in grace all the time but are given grace periodically during their lifetime.

    btw if you want more explanation of Matthew 7:22-23 i can oblige you but right now if you don't understand where i came up with what i have already posted then further interpretation may just confuse you further.
    i pray understanding and guidance be upon you all
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Thank you for your kind offer but I did not post that to open a debate.

    As I twice said in the post, "It is pretty obvious..."

    That means I believe it speaks for itself.

    If you have a specific question though which exhibits a friendly desire to reason together, that we can do.

    Just ask the question. :)
     
  4. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    vengle this portion was not aimed at you. sorry but should of been more specific. this is aimed at those that are arguing in this thread. you guys are arguing similar view points which are hard to differentiate. you guys are not understanding what you are replying too in most cases. instead of arguing ask questions to better understand why they believe the way they do and where they are coming from. when you know where a person is coming from will help you to be able to help each other instead of putting each other down.
    we are supposed to be in unity both in the body of Christ and in our speaking. we are to be a model of Christ in our actions to the whole world but i have found that christians are more unloving and judgmental then most unbelievers. and we wonder why more people do not want to turn to Christ. if i judged most christians by their actions i am not sure i would want to be a christian either. we can't even be civil with each other on a christian's forum. i hope we have forgiven or asked for forgiveness for the remarks of some of our brothers and sisters. this is what the grace is for. to purify us in God's eyes as if we had done nothing wrong and to help us grow out of sin.
     
  5. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    1 Corinthians 6:12-20
    12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
    13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
    14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.
    15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!
    16 Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For "the two," He says, "shall become one flesh."
    17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
    18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.
    19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
    20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
    NKJV

    Believers’ lives are greatly altered when they are joined to Christ. The union affects both the believer and Christ. When a believer commits immorality, he or she is dragging the union with Christ into the illicit relationship. By quoting Gen.2:24, that the two … shall become one flesh, Paul illustrates the seriousness of sexual sin. According to Paul sexual sin is done against the body. --- Paul is exhorting ***(urging, pressing, pushing, encouraging)*** the Corinthians to flee any temptation to indulge in sexual sin.

    ----- Now if, as some say, the child of God will not sin then who is Paul talking to and why? Weren’t the ones Paul was writing to children of God? If so then weren’t they doing those things? One thing you should notice is that Paul does not say a person will lose their salvation by doing those things. People who do this will definitely suffer for it this life.

    There is nothing in 1 Corinthians 6:12-20 that indicates that we can make ourselves perfect by the works of the flesh.

    Romans 12:1-5
    1 I beseech ***(implore, beg, request, ask, plead, press)*** you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.
    2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
    Serve God with Spiritual Gifts
    3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
    4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,
    5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
    NKJV

    Verse
    Every child of God has a gift that, he,she, should use to further ***(increase)*** the Body of Christ. Verse, There is nothing in theses verses that say the flesh has become perfect by works.

    Romans 8:12-17
    12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
    13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
    14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
    15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out,"Abba, Father."
    16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
    17 and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
    NKJV

    First of all in verse 13, the words you will die is not referring to physical death since all men die even those born of the Spirit.

    The question that should be asked is, how does one put to death the deeds of the sinful body? In verse 13, A Person puts to death the deeds of the body when they accept, by faith, the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. It is then that they realize that the body of flesh can not save them from the penalty of sin. When a person realizes that they are sinful and want to be saved from their sins of the body they are wanting to be freed from their sinful body. Jesus Christ has done that for the child of God and therefore the sinful flesh is dead ***(put to death)***“in Christ.” In other words it is accomplished by God.

    Hebrews 10:22-23
    22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
    23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
    NKJV

    1 Corinthians 6:11
    11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
    NKJV

    A person can not wash him/her self or justify him/her self by what he/she does. It is the work of the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I agree with you 100% in everything you said. :)

    I really believe that most of us do not want to get emotionally upset when we do.

    I think it was aspen whom I read a day or two ago his having made an excellent post about this struggle.

    I could be wrong though but I think it was aspen and Gypsy speaking to each other about it.

    And, part of the problem is as innocent as word skill blunders.

    Also that it is so easy to read emotion into someones' comment when the reality is that they are sitting there at there computer not feeling any ill emotion at all.

    That is a handicap of this form of communication. That is why the only thing I ask of others is please don't use words of others like they are a heretic or an antichrist. If they absolutely feel they need to talk about either of those things then it should be very cautiously done.

    For example One might say, "The problem I am having is that seems like it may be heretical to me."

    That is a friendly way of introducing a sensitive subject and Christ told us to be peacemakers.

    But then they should also be willing to discuss it calmly with the person they have informed of this.

    99% of the time when comments are made that seem as though they have offense attached to them I just ignore the comment and chalk it up to my own imagination.

    I have even found times where i misunderstood what the other person was saying. I have done that to aspen a couple of times and once he restated what he meant I found that I agreed with him.

    But see I have the advantage that not only did I raise six children but I also worked as a psychology facilitator helping prison inmates for a few years. Child molesters, rapists, murders, thieves, and the entire 9 yards. That was a very trying but rewarding experience.

    So I do not expect everyone to understand the same way as I know our experiences differ and that makes a big difference.

    I agree with you Richard except if you mean that Paul was pushing an impossible to reach goal.

    I believe the grace of God is given for the purpose of allowing us time to reach an attainable goal because it is not God's desire to have to destroy any of us.

    You aren't saying Paul is pushing an unrealistic goal by virtue of it being impossible are you?
     
  7. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Hebrews 10:22..., and our bodies washed with pure water.”

    Let's focus on just this one thing for a second. Compare the following:

    Ephesians 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
    "


    When does that church have to be ready for Christ Richard?

    Here is one place that tells us:

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 ¶Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


    We have to be ready by the time of his coming.

    We might want to compare Romans 13:11-14 to that and also Hebrews 12:4-17
     
  8. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Here you are beginning to actually make sense!

    So then does a dead body still sin?
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Grow up!

    So, again, you are claiming to be perfect by your works. Unless you can claim sinlessness in your sinful flesh then you have not obtained that which you say others can obtain and that would make you a hypocrite.
     
  10. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    For the child of God the goal was to believe "in Christ," not to make him/her self great in the eyes of men.

    Since you claim these things are NOT imposible, have you stopped sinning in your flesh? Can you say, before man and God that you no longer sin in your flesh? If you haven't then stop laying on others something that you can't do yourself. And if you say you have no sin in the flesh you make God a liar.

    In the scriptures I just gave, Paul never says that they can become perfect. He is urging, pressing, pushing, encouraging the children of God to try and live peacefully with all men. Since Paul's letters are only addressed to the children of God his readers are already saved. Paul does not connect these things to salvation.
    It is imposible for sinful flesh to be perfect by the actions of that same sinful flesh. Jesus came to save our spirits from our sinful flesh.
     
  11. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Who said we are perfected through the flesh? That is your idea. Your idea of humility is to be a failure as well. We bring glory to God as we overcome AND yet remain humble.

    But you are still missing the power of the gospel.

    Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    The grace of God is SUFFICIENT for the purpose of making us holy...not just in word but in Spirit and truth.
     
  12. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Paul himself prayed, taught, and wished that we would attain the full stature of Christ... And Paul himself said 'I have not yet attained'. But we must walk to the degree that we have attained, as he also says.

    To point to the goal that we might move towards it together is not hypocrisy... It is called 'preaching the gospel'.

    Together, we remind each other and exhort each other daily that we might keep growing and moving towards the goal, Christ. That is the church.
     
  13. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    Your idea of the Gospel of grace will not save anyone because it is not about grace. It is about works. I can't remember if you have ever preached the cross. All you preach is that we must work to obtain perfection in Christ when the scriptures teach any one that places their belief, faith, trust and confidence in Jesus' shed blood on the cross HAS already become a child of God and are perfect "in Christ." They live in their own relationship with God.

    1 John 5:9-13
    9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
    10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
    11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
    12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
    NKJV

    Most all "religious" people are seeking to produce good works in their lives to earn salvation. This is a never-ending battle that is filled only with frustration and defeat. Until they accept the true gospel of Jesus Christ, they will never have peace and joy. They will never be able to rest in His finished work on the cross and consequently will never be able to experience the liberty of new life in Christ.

    You are on this forum continuously talking about how a person can become perfect by their works of the flesh and that is denying that God has already made those "in Christ" perfect. Man can not make himself perfect in the flesh by what he/she does.

    If that is not what you are saying then perhaps you could explain your teachings a little better.
     
  14. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You cannot see that it is the power of God that causes men to do the works of God. You just cannot let that idea formulate in your head although it is constantly spoken of in the bible.

    You see only dead works or else forgiveness for these dead works...but with you it is always death...that is what you are preaching...DEATH!
     
  15. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    You are self-righteous because you want your works to be great enough to save you. The righousness I have was given to me by Jesus who reconciled me to God by His death on the cross. I boast in the work of God but you boast in your works. That is why you are on this forum, to boast that you are better than others because of YOUR works. You say very little, if any, about the work of God on the cross. A works gospel will send many to Hell.

    Because I do not get on these forum indicating that I am perfect by what I do you say I preach death. Your teachings of salvation by works will send many to Hell after their Death.

    I am a child of God, not by my works, but because I trust in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross. I can not see that you can say this since you never do.
     
  16. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    You are stuck in the diapers of the very first moment when one realizes that Jesus is the Son of God. You refuse to grow up since that would be like dying to you. And it IS dying! We must die to the former life and be buried with Christ so that we live a NEW life in HIS power. That is the Christian life...not just recognizing that you are sinful and filthy and then hiding that fact behind Jesus whom you think will hide your continuing inability to walk by faith.

    Col 1:9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
    Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
    Col 1:11 Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;
    Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    The gospel is about HIS power in us doing the good works. If we are not fruitful in God's works then we shall be cut off and burned as any other unbeliever.

    You say you believe Jesus is the Son of God. So does the devil. But unless you walk in HIS new creation WITHOUT SIN then you are preaching a continued rebellion against God.

    Gal_2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? GOD FORBID!!!

    Richard your whole doctrine is in the realm of 'GOD FORBID!

    Take the time to humble yourself in order to receive the true gospel according to power...the power of a new creation in Christ.
     
  17. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    The new life in Christ bears power, by which we do only the works of the Father. Yes, we rest from our own works... To do God's!

    Since you will not listen to James, or Peter, or John, and say Paul has another dispensation... Then listen to Paul. And see that his message is the same.

    Titus 3
    [sup]8[/sup] This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. [...]
    [sup]14[/sup] And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

    Those who claim to know God should at the minimum do what is right to their neighbour? Of course! These are the most basic things of the gospel. He who says he is in Christ ought to walk as he walked.
     
  18. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    So, are you saying we are SAVED by our good works?

    I am not against good works but they won't save a person.

    It is my good work to preach the cross because ""IT"" is the power of God for salvation in this age of God's grace.

    A person's good works WILL NOT SAVE THEM.

    What you preach is all about the works of man and if anyone listens to you they will only see a gospel of works and will end up in Hell.

    So, are you saying we are SAVED by our good works?

    I am not against good works but they won't save a person.

    It is my good work to preach the cross because ""IT"" is the power of God for salvation in this age of God's grace.

    A person's good works WILL NOT SAVE THEM.

    What you, and others, preach is all about the works of man and if anyone listens to you they will only see a gospel of works and will end up in Hell.
     
  19. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    What kind of madness is this! The works that Jesus Christ did, where they the works of men?

    They were works of the Father. His disciples follow his example and do the works prepared in advance by the Father... And yes, in doing so, they save themselves.

    1 Timothy 4
    [sup]12[/sup] Let no one despise your youth, but be an example to the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity. [sup]13[/sup] Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. [sup]14[/sup] Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership. [sup]15[/sup] Meditate on these things; give yourself entirely to them, that your progress may be evident to all.Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine.16 Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

    Obedience is what saves a man, because God sees the one who obeys from his heart and is pleased.

    Your 'preaching' is a good work of your own imagination... Because in doing it, you deny the power of the cross... to change YOU. You are against the power of the gospel, and the cross of Christ, which calls us to die, and receive new life. But you do not believe this new life can be had, and thus you preach against the cross.
     
  20. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    If obedience is what saves a man then does he become a savior to others? The scripture you quoted says "yourself and those who hear you".

    Obedience to what?
     
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