The answer of hell and its origins

[The Learner]

Too many people see the word torment and they immediately think God is this person who tortures people.
I know many people agree with what some commentators have said when they pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” at Luke 16:23, 28 shows, Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context. (Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10)

Revelation 9
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror
The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit. Then the star opened the hole leading to the pit. Smoke came up from the hole like smoke from a big furnace. The sun and sky became dark because of the smoke from the hole. Then locusts came out of the smoke and went down to the earth. They were given the power to sting like scorpions. ...

Revelation 8:7
The first angel blew his trumpet. Then hail and fire mixed with blood was poured down on the earth. And a third of the earth and all the green grass and a third of the trees were burned up.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 8:8
The second angel blew his trumpet. Then something that looked like a big mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. And a third of the sea became blood.
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Revelation 8:10
The third angel blew his trumpet. Then a large star, burning like a torch, fell from the sky. It fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water.
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Revelation 8:12
The fourth angel blew his trumpet. Then a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were struck. So a third of them became dark. A third of the day and night was without light.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 8:13
While I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying high in the air. The eagle said in a loud voice, “Terrible! Terrible! How terrible for those who live on the earth! The terrible trouble will begin after the sounds of the trumpets that the other three angels will blow.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 9:1
The Fifth Trumpet Begins the First Terror
The fifth angel blew his trumpet. Then I saw a star fall from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the deep hole that leads down to the bottomless pit.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 9:13
The Sixth Trumpet Blast
The sixth angel blew his trumpet. Then I heard a voice coming from the horns on the four corners of the golden altar that is before God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Revelation 9:14
It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Free the four angels who are tied at the great river Euphrates.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Then why is there much weeping and gnashing of teeth?

The expression, "weeping and gnashing of teeth," has the idea of anguish, despair, and anger, possibly accompanied by bitter words and violent action. So when someone tries to apply this expression to mean these who are thrown outside(Matthew 8:12) and are in literal pain from being in torment from being thrown into literal fire, I'm going to disagree.
As I said, Gnashing of teeth is frequently used expression to denote rage (Job 16:9; Acts 7:54) or anguish and despair. (Matthew 8:12; 13:42, 50; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30) Such gnashing may be accompanied by bitter words and violent action against the object of anger. So Abraham’s favor is contrasted with darkness.(Matthew 8:11,12)

 

[Jack]

Well I believe Hell is just an English word that replaced the Greek word Hades. Hades was a Greek word that replaced the Hebrew word Sheol and Sheol is the place where all the dead went and slept in death waiting a resurrection. So when it comes to the Hebrew word Sheol the Greek word Hades and the English word Hell they all mean the same thing. It's where the dead go and sleep in death waiting for a resurrection.

How many years did you spend at Kingdom Hall? You don't seem to want to talk about that.

 

[Jack]

Too many people see the word torment and they immediately think God is this person who tortures people.
I know many people agree with what some commentators have said when they pointed to Biblical instances of the word “torment” to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, there is Scriptural reason to believe that Revelation 20:10 does not have that sense. In fact, verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” And though Jesus spoke of a certain rich man as “existing in torments” at Luke 16:23, 28 shows, Jesus was not describing the literal experience of a real person but, rather, was setting forth an illustration. Revelation provides a number of other instances where “torment” clearly has an illustrative or symbolic sense, as is evident from context. (Revelation 9:5; 11:10; 18:7, 10)

So you're saying the Bible is wrong and Kingdom Hall is right! Stop trying to rewrite our Bible.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So you're saying the Bible is wrong and Kingdom Hall is right! Stop trying to rewrite our Bible.

I'm saying you and I disagree. You're not going to dictate to me that I have to agree with you. You can make all the accusations you want that I'm rewriting your Bible because I disagree with you, but all that teaches me about you is that you will make accusations when someone disagrees with you. It seems to me you don't think anyone has the right to disagree with you.

 

[Patrick1966]

We ALL seek the truth and understanding and will, invariably, arrive at different conclusions. First and foremost is that we must LOVE GOD & LOVE ONE ANOTHER as Jesus commanded us to do. It is of no use to be legally correct but then fail to love your brother or sister. It's better to be mistaken about scripture but to be loving toward one another.

 

[Jack]

I'm saying you and I disagree. You're not going to dictate to me that I have to agree with you. You can make all the accusations you want that I'm rewriting your Bible because I disagree with you, but all that teaches me about you is that you will make accusations when someone disagrees with you. It seems to me you don't think anyone has the right to disagree with you.

I agree with Jesus. You agree with Kingdom Hall. Not the same at all. How long did you say you were taught by Kingdom Hall? Oh that's right, you didn't. Hmmm

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I agree with Jesus. You agree with Kingdom Hall. Not the same at all. How long did you say you were taught by Kingdom Hall? Oh that's right, you didn't. Hmmm

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I know you believe that you're agreeing with Jesus. I know however that the scriptures say that there will be people on this earth that will honestly believe they're Christians and the things they're doing they will believe they're doing a sacred service to the True God.(John 16:2) So just because you say you agree with Jesus doesn't mean you are agreeing with him. Now I know you will be thinking the same thing about me, so like I said, you and I are going to disagree.

 

[robert derrick]

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

More fault finding with the God of the Bible, by exalting one's own imagination of better love and mercy that He.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

And no wonder the God of the Bible is being accused of unmerciful delight in the eternal torment of others.

It's from those reading the JW book of mortal souls and created christs.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

More fault finding with the God of the Bible, by exalting one's own imagination of better love and mercy that He.[/Quote\]

Is it those that believe God tortures a unrighteous person for eternity or those that believe God punishes the unrighteous person with eternal death the ones who believes in a loving and merciful God?
I know most human beings don't believe in torturing a another human being. Those that do believe in torturing a human being, and consider it just, merciful, compassionate, or loving, the majority of human beings would look down on such acts to another human being. So should human beings consider torturing other human being in the human justice system? If we answer no, then isn't that saying we all believe the human justice system to be more loving and merciful than the true God? Because if we believe human beings shouldn't or wouldn't consider torturing another human being as being merciful, or loving but we believe God would be that type of person isn't that saying our justice system or that we believe ourselves to be more loving and merciful? But isn't that impossible for human beings to have more love and mercy than God? So since God created human beings in his image, meaning human beings can display such things as love, mercy, compassion, justice, etc would God torture unrighteous persons for eternity or punish them with eternal death?

 

[bbyrd009]

@teamventure as discussed, lets look at this subject of Hell and its origins.

Allow me to quote from Thomas Hobbes who uses some colorful language in describing hell.

The fire prepared for the wicked is an Everlasting Fire: that is to say, the estate wherein no man can be without torture, both of body and mind, after the Resurrection shall last for ever; and in that sense the Fire shall be unquenchable and the torments Everlasting: but it cannot thence be inferred, that he who shall be cast into that fire, or be tormented with those torments, shall endure, and resist them so, as to be eternally burnt, and tortured, and yet never be destroyed, nor die

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan (Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1904), 335.

The first point we see is this fire has been prepared:-

By who?
Where is the account of this prepared fire?
Does Genesis describe such a place for the dead/doomed?

The second point:- is this fire is allowed to burn for eternity somewhere in God's realm:-

Is the idea of eternal torture in keeping with a Merciful God?
If so, what is the purpose of torturing people indefinitely?
What does God get from this?
Also, how can an immortal soul be burned?

You will find with all commentaries the absence of Old Testament text to support their ideas.

So the first question for our board given we have asked a number of questions already, is where do we go in the OT to find such knowledge?

Further to this, do you believe people are there now? or is this to take place after the resurrection?

I wanted to make my position super clear from the outset.

I dont believe in an immortal soul, or a literal place of eternal fire; I believe we go to the grave upon death, either permanently, or as the Apostles teach, a sleep awaiting the resurrection. For me this subject is extremely clear and because the traditional view lacks all Scriptural support, I am able to rest easy in the divine hope as recorded in the Bible.

So looking at the Old Testament first where would you like to start?

F2F

word

id start with the norse/angle scribes who just didnt have any better analogy/term to xlate Gehenna into
Gehenna is on Erets

 

[bbyrd009]

More fault finding with the God of the Bible, by exalting one's own imagination of better love and mercy that He.

so you say, yes
all i saw was legit questions tho

And no wonder the God of the Bible is being accused of unmerciful delight in the eternal torment of others.

your liberal use of questionable adjectives belies your position imo, wadr
you are having to dramatize to minimize
or something

 

[bbyrd009]

in a word, you are clinging to the hope of death, more abundantly; immortality for the soul after death
Christ came that we might have life, more abundantly, and we are the Body of Christ
now dont get me wrong, i wish you the best in your quest for immortality, and thats the path pretty much everyone takes i guess, but the truth might really shake your faith ok, so you might leave a little room for agnostia lol

 

[bbyrd009]

see, youve forgotten when you looked right at your reflection in the mirror and did not see your “self”

 

[bbyrd009]

I will never leave you nor forsake you
Return to Me and I will return to you

 

[Jack]

I know you believe that you're agreeing with Jesus. I know however that the scriptures say that there will be people on this earth that will honestly believe they're Christians and the things they're doing they will believe they're doing a sacred service to the True God.(John 16:2) So just because you say you agree with Jesus doesn't mean you are agreeing with him. Now I know you will be thinking the same thing about me, so like I said, you and I are going to disagree.

I quoted Jesus in the Christian Bible and you try to change the subject. Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall? How many years did you say you were taught at Kingdom Hall? Kingdom Hall tries to rewrite nearly every verse in the Bible! Even the NWT says "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER". Every English Bible I have read says you are wrong.

 

[robert derrick]

Is it those that believe God tortures a unrighteous person for eternity or those that believe God punishes the unrighteous person with eternal death the ones who believes in a loving and merciful God?

Once again your accusations against the God of the Bible show you have no faith in Him nor His word.

Show the Scripture that says God tortures anyone. That is a false accusation against the Lamb of God, that is not written nor said by God in Scripture.

I know most human beings don't believe in torturing a another human being.

Neither does the God of the Bible, much less Himself doing so. Your accusation is false against Jesus Christ.

Those that do believe in torturing a human being, and consider it just, merciful, compassionate, or loving, the majority of human beings would look down on such acts to another human being.

As you do on the God of Israel, since that is what you say He does, not just at a certain time but forever.

So should human beings consider torturing other human being in the human justice system? If we answer no, then isn't that saying we all believe the human justice system to be more loving and merciful than the true God?

That's what you say, since you say He tortures people. God doesn't even torture rats. He never created anything to torture:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The god you're talking of is the devil and god of this world. You need to start believing the true God of Scripture.

But isn't that impossible for human beings to have more love and mercy than God?

Of course it is, but you keep trying anyway, by accusing God as being less merciful and more tortuous than you.

So since God created human beings in his image, meaning human beings can display such things as love, mercy, compassion, justice, etc would God torture unrighteous persons for eternity or punish them with eternal death?

Not the God of the Bible whom you falsely accuse of doing. He does not torture anyone nor anything.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I quoted Jesus in the Christian Bible and you try to change the subject. Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall? How many years did you say you were taught at Kingdom Hall? Kingdom Hall tries to rewrite nearly every verse in the Bible! Even the NWT says "they will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER". Every English Bible I have read says you are wrong.

You said you agreed with Jesus. But I was just letting you know that just because you quote scripture doesn't mean you're reasoning on the scriptures you quoted correctly. Like I said there are people who honestly believe themselves to be Christians who are not Christians. These people can quote scripture but they don't reason on those scriptures the quote correctly. So like I said just because you say you agreed with Jesus doesn't mean you are agreeing with him. You and I are going to disagree.

 

[Jack]

You said you agreed with Jesus. But I was just letting you know that just because you quote scripture doesn't mean you're reasoning on the scriptures you quoted correctly. Like I said there are people who honestly believe themselves to be Christians who are not Christians. These people can quote scripture but they don't reason on those scriptures the quote correctly. So like I said just because you say you agreed with Jesus doesn't mean you are agreeing with him. You and I are going to disagree.

Hell will be FILLED with people who don't believe in Hell. Don't follow Kingdom Hall to Hell Barney! They won't be able to help you on Judgment Day.

No Scripture? Of course not!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Once again your accusations against the God of the Bible show you have no faith in Him nor His word.

Show the Scripture that says God tortures anyone. That is a false accusation against the Lamb of God, that is not written nor said by God in Scripture.



Neither does the God of the Bible, much less Himself doing so. Your accusation is false against Jesus Christ.



As you do on the God of Israel, since that is what you say He does, not just at a certain time but forever.



That's what you say, since you say He tortures people. God doesn't even torture rats. He never created anything to torture:

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The god you're talking of is the devil and god of this world. You need to start believing the true God of Scripture.



Of course it is, but you keep trying anyway, by accusing God as being less merciful and more tortuous than you.



Not the God of the Bible whom you falsely accuse of doing. He does not torture anyone nor anything.

I didn't say at any time that God tortures people, I don't believe God is such a person. I asked a question, "Is it those that believe God tortures a unrighteous person for eternity or those that believe God punishes the unrighteous person with eternal death the ones who believes in a loving and merciful God?" Its a question, That's what I texted.
What I understand about the world I'm living in is that I know that there are many people who believe that when the scriptures say that God will throw Satan and his demons and those persons who are his followers into the lake of fire people believe that those thrown into the lake fire will be in literal pain from the fire forever. I'm not saying I agree with that, I'm just saying that's what I know what a lot of people believe.