The answer of hell and its origins

[bbyrd009]

the “crimes” for which God prescribes the death penalty,
God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and
God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide.

God’s Violence in the Old Testament: The Problem

Relating faith to everyday life. Here I post thoughts on Faith including excerpts from my latest books, resources for churches, posts current events, and reflections on questions I'm frequently asked about, theology, ethics, the bible. Thanks for dropping by. -Adam Hamilton

www.adamhamilton.com

Divine retribution is often portrayed in the Tanak or Old Testament.

Genesis 3:14–24 – Curse upon Adam and Eve and expulsion from the Garden of Eden; Disobedience
Genesis 4:9–15 – Curse upon Cain after his slaying of his brother, Abel
Genesis 6–7 – The Great Flood; Rampant evil and Nephilim
Genesis 11:1–9 – The confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel; To scatter them over the Earth
Genesis 19:23–29 – Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah; people of no redeeming value
Genesis 38:6–10 – Destruction of Er and Onan; wickedness in the Lord's sight
Exodus 7–14 – Plagues of Egypt; to establish his power over that of the gods of Egypt
Exodus 19:10–25 – Divine threatenings at Mount Sinai; warn that the mountain is off limits and holy
Exodus 32 – Plagues at the incident of the golden calf; disowning the people for breaking his covenant with them
Leviticus 10:1–2 – Nadab and Abihu are burned; offering unauthorised fire in their censers
Leviticus 26:14–39 – Curses upon the disobedient; divine warning
Numbers 11 – A plague accompanies the giving of manna in the wilderness; rejecting his gracious gift of heavenly food and failing his test of obedience
Numbers 16 – The rebellion of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram – Their supernatural deaths and the plague that followed; insolence and attempting self-promotion to roles they were unworthy of holding
Numbers 20:9–13 – Reprimand of Moses at the water of Meribah; disobeying the Lord's instruction, showing distrust and indifference in God's presence
Numbers 21 – Murmuring of the people and the plague of fiery flying serpent; spurning God's grace
Numbers 25 – Whoredom with the Moabites and resulting plague; breaching God's covenant through sexual immorality and worshipping other gods
Deuteronomy 28 – Curses pronounced upon the disobedient; another divine warning
1 Samuel 6:19 – some/many men of Beth Shemesh killed; Looking into the Ark of the Covenant
2 Samuel 6:1–7 – Uzzah struck dead; Touching the Ark of the Covenant
1 Kings 11 – God promises to tear King Solomon's kingdom from his son except for a single tribe; Building altars to other gods for his wives
Job 14:13 – sending trials to the just man Job
New Testament
See also: Attributes of God in Christianity § Wrath
The New Testament associates the wrath of God particularly with imagery of the Last Day, described allegorically in Romans 2:5 as the "day of wrath", and the Book of Revelation. The wrath of God is mentioned in at least twenty verses of the New Testament. Examples are:

John 3:36 – John the Baptist declares that whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.[18]
Acts 5:1 – Ananias and his wife Sapphira struck dead, Holding back some of the proceeds after selling a piece of property
Romans 1:18 – For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
Romans 5:9 – Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Romans 12:19 – Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
Ephesians 5:6 – Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Revelation 6:17 – For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to withstand?
Revelation 14:19 – So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Revelation 15:1 – Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God was finished.
Revelation 19:15 – From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

a valid argument there might be that that was during the giving of the law, and Yah is no longer our judge
Furthermore, the Father judges no one...

 

[The Learner]

a valid argument there might be that that was during the giving of the law, and Yah is no longer our judge
Furthermore, the Father judges no one...

Brother friend you need only read the last book of the Bible to see God is tough on humans.

Exodus 15:3
Verse Concepts
“The Lord is a warrior;
The Lord is His name.

Isaiah 42:13
Verse Concepts
The Lord will go forth like a warrior,
He will arouse His zeal like a man of war.
He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail against His enemies.

Source: 26 Bible verses about God As A Warrior

 

[bbyrd009]

Brother friend you need only read the last book of the Bible to see God is tough on humans.

Exodus 15:3
Verse Concepts
“The Lord is a warrior;
The Lord is His name.

Isaiah 42:13
Verse Concepts
The Lord will go forth like a warrior,
He will arouse His zeal like a man of war.
He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry.
He will prevail against His enemies.

Source: 26 Bible verses about God As A Warrior

well, i would say that there are other factors too, "torture" and even "punishment" are pretty subjective concepts, as anyone with kids already knows. Plus i notice both of those are OT, ergo Conquest Genre

But i would agree at "stress," maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

God’s anger and wrath in punishing his people, and
God’s command to the Israelites to commit genocide.

fwiw i understand that most of that is Conquest Genre anyway, and likely not meant to be read so literally
no actual walls of Jericho (in that century anyway) and etc
no genocides, almost surely
no inhabitants in Nazareth (in that century)

 

[The Learner]

well, i would say that there are other factors too, "torture" and even "punishment" are pretty subjective concepts, as anyone with kids already knows. Plus i notice both of those are OT, ergo Conquest Genre

But i would agree at "stress," maybe

I know Hebrew and some Greek. Matthew 25:46 is torture. Think of this way, one goes before God feels perfect love and then is cast out of his immediate presence.

These are the best translations:

WYC
And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.

RGT
“And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.”

NMB
And these shall go into everlasting pain, but the righteous into life eternal.

GNV
And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

"

Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)​

<< Matthew 25:45​

Matthew 26:1 >>​

Matthew 25:46



Eternal punishment (kolasin aiwnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazw, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mwria (vengeance) and kolasiv. But the same adjective aiwniov is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwniov (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwnev twn aiwnwn)." Matthew 25:46 (NASB) - Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

 

[The Learner]

fwiw i understand that most of that is Conquest Genre anyway, and likely not meant to be read so literally
no actual walls of Jericho (in that century anyway) and etc
no genocides, almost surely
no inhabitants in Nazareth (in that century)

Check out 70AD in history. And, don't overlook the last book of the Bible. The God of the old testament is also the same God of the new testament. There are not two Gods.

 

[Illuminator]

73 Bible verses about Punishment, By God

“How Can God Order the Massacre of Innocents?” (Amalekites, etc.)​

Because God is Creator He also has the prerogative to judge. This is analogous to our experience. Society takes it upon itself to judge the criminal and punish him if he supersedes the “just” laws that govern the society, in order to prevent chaos and suffering. If that is true of human society (one man to another), it is all the more of God, because He is ontologically above us (Creator and created). God directly commanded these wars.

So it is perfectly sensible and moral to posit (apart from the data of revelation) a notion of God judging both individuals and nations. God’s omniscience is such that He can determine if an entire nation has gone bad (“beyond repair,” so to speak) and should be punished. And He did so. Now, even in a wicked nation there may be individuals who are exceptions to the rule. So some innocent people will be killed. But this is like our human experience as well. In wartime, we go to war against an entire nation. In so doing, even if it is unintentional, some innocent non-combatants will be killed.

But it’s also different in God’s case because He judged nations in part in order to prevent their idolatry and other sins to infiltrate Jewish (i.e., true) religion. He also judged Israel at various times (lest He be accused of being unfair). In any event, it is not true that nations or individuals were punished because of what their ancestors did. There is a sense of corporate punishment, just described, and it is also true that the entire human race is a fallen race. We all deserve punishment for that fact alone, and God would be perfectly just to wipe us all out the next second. No one could hold it against Him.

He decides to be merciful and grant us grace to do better, but He is under no obligation to do so, anymore than the governor is obliged to pardon convicted criminals. Again, the societal analogy is perfectly apt. If someone rebels at every turn against every societal norm and law and appropriate behavior and so forth, is society to be blamed? Say someone grows up thinking that serial rape is fine and dandy and shouldn’t be prevented at all. So he goes and does this. Eventually, the legal system catches up with him and he gets his punishment. He rebelled against what most people think is wrong, and more than deserved his punishment.

We don’t say that there should be no punishment. We don’t blame society for his suffering in prison. We don’t deny that society has a right to judge such persons. So if mere human beings can judge each other, why cannot God judge His creation, and (particularly) those of His creation that have rebelled against Him at every turn? What is so incomprehensible about that? One may not believe it, but there is no radical incoherence or inconsistency or monstrous injustice or immorality in this Christian (and Jewish) viewpoint (which is what is always claimed by the critics).
source

 

[bbyrd009]

Check out 70AD in history. And, don't overlook the last book of the Bible. The God of the old testament is also the same God of the new testament. There are not two Gods.

well no, but worlds change, and people evolve, perhaps
we are no longer in the giving of law, for example
the (literal) law of son and death has been repealed
etc

 

[bbyrd009]

I know Hebrew and some Greek. Matthew 25:46 is torture. Think of this way, one goes before God feels perfect love and then is cast out of his immediate presence.

These are the best translations:

WYC
And these shall go into everlasting torment; but the just men shall go into everlasting life.

RGT
“And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.”

NMB
And these shall go into everlasting pain, but the righteous into life eternal.

GNV
And these shall go into everlasting pain, and the righteous into life eternal.

"

Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)​

<< Matthew 25:45​

Matthew 26:1 >>​

Matthew 25:46



Eternal punishment (kolasin aiwnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazw, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mwria (vengeance) and kolasiv. But the same adjective aiwniov is used with kolasin and zwhn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zwhn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one's mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiwniov (from aiwn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have "ages of ages" (aiwnev twn aiwnwn)." Matthew 25:46 (NASB) - Robertson's Word Pictures (NT)

leaning pretty heavily on some awfully flowery language now
not saying it isnt true…but assumptions are being made about when Christ comes in His glory, etc
i mean its a parable after all

 

[bbyrd009]

Check out 70AD in history. And, don't overlook the last book of the Bible. The God of the old testament is also the same God of the new testament. There are not two Gods.

i may not be clear on where youre coming from; are you thinking Yah literally came down and tortured people on earth, or only in the "afterlife," or ?

Did Yah literally, in spoken voice, command the Israelites to commit genocides, or i mean how did the communication work there, iyo?

 

[robert derrick]

I already shown from the chapters of Revelation God "tortures". Also Matthew 25:46 shows that too.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

Now, you add to Scripture that God tortures anyone. Nothing here says God tortures, nor in Revelation. Your accusation against God is false and you are lying about His written word. Jesus Christ does not torture anyone but comes to save men's lives.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

 

[robert derrick]

well, i am not disagreeing, but you have not addressed the point; who was saying that?

Does the God of the Bible torture people or any creature He creates and makes?

 

[The Learner]

well no, but worlds change, and people evolve, perhaps
we are no longer in the giving of law, for example
the (literal) law of son and death has been repealed
etc

Check out 70AD in history. And, don't overlook the last book of the Bible. The God of the old testament is also the same God of the new testament. There are not two Gods.

 

[The Learner]

leaning pretty heavily on some awfully flowery language now
not saying it isnt true…but assumptions are being made about when Christ comes in His glory, etc
i mean its a parable after all

What planet are you on friend?

 

[The Learner]

i may not be clear on where youre coming from; are you thinking Yah literally came down and tortured people on earth, or only in the "afterlife," or ?

Did Yah literally, in spoken voice, command the Israelites to commit genocides, or i mean how did the communication work there, iyo?

A.D. 70 Titus Destroys Jerusalem

When the Roman general sacked the temple, the Jews were forced into a new era—and so were the Christians.

www.christianitytoday.com

The Destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD)

On August 10, 70 A.D. (the 9th of the Jewish month of Av), according to Jewish chronology, the very day when the King of Babylon burned Solomon's Temple in 586 B.C., the newly renovated Temple of Herod was burned by the Roman general, Titus, following a Jewish revolt that began a few years...

christianheritagefellowship.com

The Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE

The Siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE was the high watermark in the First Jewish-Roman War (66-73 CE) regarding the tension between the two forces. With the Roman Empire transitioning from the Julio-Claudian...

www.worldhistory.org

Jesus predicted it in Matthew 24

 

[The Learner]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.

Now, you add to Scripture that God tortures anyone. Nothing here says God tortures, nor in Revelation. Your accusation against God is false and you are lying about His written word. Jesus Christ does not torture anyone but comes to save men's lives.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Jesus is God and sends people to eternal punishment, torture

 

[The Learner]

Does the God of the Bible torture people or any creature He creates and makes?

Read Job, God gave Satan permission to torture Job.

 

[Illuminator]

Jesus is God and sends people to eternal punishment, torture

Not exactly. God sends no one to hell, people send themselves. Hell is an awareness of the infinite love of God that those in hell can never have, by their own choices. "Fire" is a metaphor for the torture of being separated from God's infinite love, and literal fire gets the point across.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus is God and sends people to eternal punishment, torture

But He does not torture them. By your judgment any just judge sending murdering rapists to be executed is executing them.

You know why there are them that will go into everlasting punishment? Because they want to. They would rather be in eternal torment, than be with the Lord in love and obedience to Him as Lord and God. They make that choice by refusing to believe His warnings.

Being without God is torture, and many make that choice, beginning with Lucifer. And if t=people choose to die in sin against God, that torture has only just begun.

Your accusation that God is a torturer, so that you can do away with torment of hell and the LOF for the wicked that choose it, is false and shows your manner of anger against a just and righteous God that is love, Who will not allow the wicked to forever be disobeying Him and causing all manner of harm to the innocent.

I reject your liberalist self-righteous accusations against the God of the Bible.

 

[robert derrick]

Read Job, God gave Satan permission to torture Job.

Correct. The devil tortures people, not God.

The God of the Bible is not the devil.