The answer of hell and its origins

[Jack]

The Lazarus and rich man is a parable. It's not some historic event that happened.

Where does it say it's a parable? It does not! It's literal Biblical people. You're preaching for Kingdom Hall. Why don't you answer questions? Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall? How many years did you say you were taught at Kingdom Hall? 30? 40?

"Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

You didn't answer my question. Even your NWT says you are wrong.

"Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?"

That you said that above proves you don't have a clue about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Where does it say it's a parable? It does not! It's literal Biblical people. You're preaching for Kingdom Hall. Why don't you answer questions? Do you need permission from Kingdom Hall? How many years did you say you were taught at Kingdom Hall? 30? 40?

"Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?"

You want to take it literally? Ok. So this means that you believe that all the righteous can fit in the literal bosom of the literal human being named Abraham. Interesting.

 

[The Learner]

The key to understanding the lake of fire is first the scriptures tells us the lake of fire is the second death, then the scriptures say that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
So you can go on and on all you want to but you're not going to convince me that death which is thrown into the lake of fire will feel any kind of pain, since it's not a person. So what happens when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it's destroyed out of existence, forever. So that means everyone and everything else that's thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed out of existence forever.

As the book of Revelation tells us, the book of Revelation was shown to John in signs. So you can't take everything in the book of Revelation literally, a lot of it is symbolic.
Since Genesis 2:7 tell us that human beings are souls, not that human beings have souls, Revelation 20:4 is to be taken symbolically because no scripture is going to contradict another scripture, meaning Revelation 20:4 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.
So anyone viewing Revelation 20:4 literally, believing these souls are disembodied souls that have separated from human bodies, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Not that many care about such truthful information. They would rather hang on desperately to the lie that human beings have living souls instead of agreeing with scripture that teach us that human beings are living souls.

lol, it is not a contradiction because unveiling doctrine in Scripture is progressive. When you stick with gen 2, you are completely wrong, friend. Revelation clearly shows the definition, understanding of the word soul has progressed well beyond genesis.

 

[The Learner]

I don't care what Bible you use, the apostle Paul was talking about the Resurrection of the dead. That's the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. You're not going to convince me to deny the resurrection of the dead.

The translation I used is best understanding of the Greek text. The NWT is simply a poor paraphrase for the King James by those who were not even Greek Scholars. I already showed that the one who took part of class in Greek dropped out and did not compete his studies. When he was on the witness stand at Scottland Yard, he could not read, nor translated a Hebrew text, I learned to do around the time of First Grade.

 

[The Learner]

Fred Franz Unable to Translate Hebrew

Fred Franz was the leader of the New World Translation (NWT) committee and subsequent president of the Watchtower Society, and the only member of the secret committee to have any training in Hebrew or Greek, limited as it was.

Mr. Franz, under oath in a trial in Scotland in the Scottish Court of Sessions in November, 1954 (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.7.), was asked:

(Q): I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew ....
(A). Yes.

The next day, he was put to the test. Could he really follow the Bible in Hebrew? Franz was asked to translate a simple Bible text at Genesis 2:4:6

(Q): I think we come to the name Jehovah in the forth verse, don't we, of the second chapter of Genesis ... [page 34]
(A). Yes.

(Q): You, yourself, read and speak Hebrew, do you?
(Remember, Franz had admitted to this the previous day)
(A): I do not speak Hebrew.

(The examiner was surprised to hear this)
(Q): You do not!
(A). No.

Q): Can you, yourself, translate that into Hebrew?
(A): Which?
(Q): That fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis?
(A): You mean here?

(Q). Yes?
(A): No, I won't attempt to do that.

What Franz "wouldn't attempt" to translate into Hebrew is what many have said as a simple exercise an average first or second-year Hebrew student in seminary would be able to do. Franz could neither speak Hebrew nor translate the English to Hebrew. The President of the Watchtower allowed Jehovah's Witnesses to believe he is a Bible scholar having an education in Biblical languages. The facts show otherwise. He is not a scholar. In fact, there is not one Bible scholar among the Watchtower leaders. There couldn’t be one in good conscience because of their theology and what they have done in their translation.

Fred Franz Revealed as Accuracy Checker

In the same trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication.

(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.

Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)

(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...

Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)

(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.

Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.

The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.

According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983), 50

Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.

As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985), 174.

(Source and additional details: The word was what?)

Fred Franz on Trial

 

[The Learner]

JW - NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek

NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s...

www.christianforums.com

 

[The Learner]

Terrible translation.



Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."
British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."

"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)

 

[The Learner]

Is the New World Translation Accurate? What do Bible scholars say? – JW Answers

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures – Part 2 - JA Show Articles

Dr. Robert Countess’ published doctoral thesis, The Jehovah’s Witness New Testament: A Critical Analysis of the New World Translation of the Christian Greek

jashow.org

Index of Scholars​

William Barclay Jason BeDuhn Lant Carpenter William D. Chamberlain C.H. Dodd MacLean Gilmour Edgar J. Goodspeed S.G. Green Murray J. Harris Herman Heinfetter A.N. Jannaris Benjamin Kedar William Loader Julius R. Mantey Robert M. McCoy John L. McKenzie​

C.F.D. Moule Archbishop Newcome Andrews Norton Joseph Priestley Siegfried Schulz Vincent Taylor John Thompson Alexander Thomson W.E. Vine J. W. Wenham Paul Wernle B.F. Westcott Allen Wikgren Benjamin Wilson Thomas Winter Robert Young​

 

[The Learner]

Who was Johannes Greber?

www.watchtowerlies.com

From the 4/1/1983 issue of “The Watchtower”, page 31, “Questions from Readers”
■ Why, in recent years, has The Watchtower not made use of the translation by the former Catholic priest, Johannes Greber?
This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings of Matthew 27:52, 53 and John 1:1, as given in the New World Translation and other authoritative Bible versions. But as indicated in a foreword to the 1980 edition of The New Testament by Johannes Greber, this translator relied on “God’s Spirit World” to clarify for him how he should translate difficult passages. It is stated: “His wife, a medium of God’s Spiritworld was often instrumental in conveying the correct answers from God’s Messengers to Pastor Greber.” The Watchtower has deemed it improper to make use of a translation that has such a close rapport with spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:10-12) The scholarship that forms the basis for the rendering of the above-cited texts in the New World Translation is sound and for this reason does not depend at all on Greber’s translation for authority. Nothing is lost, therefore, by ceasing to use his New Testament.
So here, The Watchtower tells us that they had ceased using Greber’s translation because they came to realize that it had come about, at least partially, as a result of spiritism. Interesting that The Watchtower quotes from the forward from the 1980 edition rather than earlier printings of Greber’s translation

The Watchtower and Johannes Greber | docbob.org

Much has been said and written over the years regarding Jehovah's Witnesses reliance on Johannes Greber's "The New Testament—A New Translation and Explanation Based on the Oldest Manuscripts" to support their rendering of John 1:1 and Matthew 27:52,53 in their "New World Translation." ...

www.docbob.org

 

[The Learner]

Occult Spiritist Supports New World Translation | Watchman Fellowship, Inc.

www.watchman.org

For an Answer: Christian Apologetics - Scholars & NWT

 

[The Learner]

Jesus did sacrifice his life, meaning he sacrificed that human body his human life for mankind. Jesus had to die as human beings do, which means he would have to cease to exist as a living person. If you're saying he was still living somewhere during the parts of three days he was said to be dead, then you're denying he was dead. Death and living are not the same thing. If you're dead, you can't think, feel, talk, see, etc. but if you're alive then you can think, feel, talk, see, etc. Jesus was dead for parts of three days, then on the third day, he was resurrected back into existence as a living person.

No just agreeing with Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons, not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.

Those that teach human beings have souls or living persons are contradicting Genesis 2:7. Like I said no scripture is going to contradict Genesis 2:7. So those who say human beings have souls will always be contradicting Genesis 2:7.

death is defined as seperation of body with spirit-soul remember unveiling of doctrine in bible is progressive, friend.

 

[The Learner]

I know you are not going by scripture but what a imperfect human or group of imperfect human beings have told you, which is that human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies,you're not going by scripture that says human beings are souls.

Jesus resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) He was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. Jesus was granted immortality and incorruption, which Jesus didn't have while on earth as a human being. While on earth as a human being Jesus was like the first Adam which is why Jesus is said to be the last Adam. So while on earth Jesus was a sinless human being with no sinful nature in his human flesh. No human being can have immortality and incorruption so Jesus body when he was resurrected was a immortal, incorruptible spirit body which a human being doesn't have, so he was made higher than the humans second only to YHWH God in the universe. Flesh and blood, meaning human beings can't live in heaven because as 1 Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God (Hebrews 7:26; 1Timothy 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)

I do not remember, does the Holy Spirit indwell you? We who have him get
Illumination from him (Acts 13:2).

Source: 7 Bible verses about Spiritual Illumination

Daniel 5:14
Verse Concepts
Now I have heard about you that a spirit of the gods is in you, and that illumination, insight and extraordinary wisdom have been found in you.

John 14:26
Verse Concepts
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Hebrews 6:4
Verse Concepts
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 1:18
Verse Concepts
I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

John 16:13-16
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.read more.
1 Corinthians 4:5
Verse Concepts
Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men’s hearts; and then each man’s praise will come to him from God.

Source: 7 Bible verses about Spiritual Illumination

 

[The Learner]

What is the biblical doctrine of illumination?​

ANSWER

Simply put, illumination in the spiritual sense is “turning on the light” of understanding in some area. Throughout the ages, people in every culture and religion have claimed some kind of revelation or enlightenment from God (whether true or not). When that enlightenment deals with new knowledge or future things, we call it prophecy. When that enlightenment deals with understanding and applying knowledge already given, we call it illumination. Regarding illumination of the latter type, the question arises, “How does God do it?”

The most basic level of enlightenment is the knowledge of sin, and without that knowledge, everything else is pointless. Psalm 18:28 says, “You, O LORD, keep my lamp burning; my God turns my darkness into light.” Psalm 119, which is the longest chapter in the Bible, is a song about God’s Word. In verse 130, it says “The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.” This verse establishes the basic method of God’s illumination. When God’s Word enters the heart of a person, it gives light and understanding to them. For this reason, we are repeatedly told to study the Word of God. Psalm 119:11 says “I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you.” Verses 98 and 99 say “Your commands make me wiser than my enemies, for they are ever with me. I have more insight than all my teachers, for I meditate on your statutes.”

Regular study of the Word of God will give direction and understanding in the issues of life. This is the first method of God’s illumination and the starting point for us all. In Psalm 119 we also find another type of God’s illumination. Verse 18 says, “Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.” These are not new revelations, but things which have been written and revealed long before, and just now understood by the reader (one of those “aha!” moments). Similarly, verse 73 says, “Your hands made me and formed me; give me understanding to learn your commands.” The plea is for personal understanding and application of God’s laws as they are studied by the individual. Fifteen times in this psalm, God is asked to teach or give understanding regarding His laws.

One passage that sometimes stirs controversy regarding illumination is John 14:26, “But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” Jesus was speaking to His disciples in the upper room, giving them last instructions before His death. This special group of men was to be responsible for spreading the good news of Jesus Christ to the whole world. They had spent three and a half years with Him, watching His miracles and hearing His teachings. They would relay those things to the rest of the world, and would need God’s special help remembering those things accurately. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would teach them and remind them of what had been said, so they could give it to others (including the writing of the Gospels). This verse does not teach that the Spirit will do so with all believers (though there are other verses that speak of the Spirit’s illuminating work).

What is the Holy Spirit’s illuminating work in believers? Ephesians 1:17-18 tells us that the Spirit gives wisdom and revelation concerning Jesus Christ, and opens the eyes of understanding so we can know God’s purposes in our lives. In 1 Corinthians 2:10-13, God has revealed His plans for us by His Spirit, who teaches us spiritual things. The context here points to the Word of God as that which has been revealed. The Spirit of God will always point us to the Word of God for our instruction. As Jesus told His disciples in John 16:12-15, the Spirit simply repeats what the Father and the Son have already said. This repetition helps us remember and fully hear what God has already told us. Sometimes we have to hear things several times before we actually hear them. That’s where the Spirit comes in.

One thing that is sometimes overlooked in the discussion of illumination is the purpose of it. To hear some arguments, it would seem that the whole purpose of illumination is an accurate and academic understanding of God’s Word. There is no question that God desires us to accurately understand what He has given us. Words have meaning, and we must pay attention to the details in those words. If, however, we stop there, we simply have an academic understanding of facts or philosophies, which do no one any good.

Going back to Psalm 119, we find purpose statements connected with the illumination verses. “I will meditate on your wonders” (v. 27), “I will keep your law and obey it with all my heart” (v. 34), “that I may understand your statutes” (v. 125), “that I may live” (v. 144). The illumination always points to action. Why does God help us understand His Word? So we are able to live in its light. First John 1:6 challenges us, “If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.” We could paraphrase it to say, “If we say we’ve been enlightened, but still walk in the dark, we lie about understanding God’s Word.” The Spirit of God, who enlightens us to hear and understand God’s Word, then takes that knowledge and guides us in living it. Romans 8:14 says “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” The illuminating and leading work of the Holy Spirit in our lives is a confirmation that we are indeed children of God.

What is the biblical doctrine of illumination? | GotQuestions.org

What is the biblical doctrine of illumination? How does the Holy Spirit illuminate the Bible for us?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[RLT63]

I know you are not going by scripture but what a imperfect human or group of imperfect human beings have told you, which is that human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies,you're not going by scripture that says human beings are souls.

Jesus resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) He was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. Jesus was granted immortality and incorruption, which Jesus didn't have while on earth as a human being. While on earth as a human being Jesus was like the first Adam which is why Jesus is said to be the last Adam. So while on earth Jesus was a sinless human being with no sinful nature in his human flesh. No human being can have immortality and incorruption so Jesus body when he was resurrected was a immortal, incorruptible spirit body which a human being doesn't have, so he was made higher than the humans second only to YHWH God in the universe. Flesh and blood, meaning human beings can't live in heaven because as 1 Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God (Hebrews 7:26; 1Timothy 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)

What about 1 Peter 3:19? You love to quote verse 18 but have no explanation of verse 19

 

[The Learner]

We know that Jesus was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spirit body because the scriptures tell us that Jesus sacrificed is perfect sinless human body, for mankind. He didn't take that sacrifice back which he would have done if he was resurrected with a perfect sinless human body again. The Scripture at 1 Peter 3:18 tells us that Jesus was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. So Jesus wasn't resurrected with a perfect sinless human body, but instead he was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spirit body. The scriptures show us at 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Jesus was made a life giving spirit.

google case for physical resurrection of jesus pdf

The Case For The Resurrection of Jesus - PDF Drive

Habermas, who has written several apologetic works on the resurrection, and Licona, a speaker and budding New Testament scholar who was once Habermas's student, offer a comprehensive and far-reaching argument for the historical veracity of Christ's resurrection. In fact, at times it is too far-reach

www.pdfdrive.com

https://www.northcoastcalvary.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Class-5-The-Case-for-the-Resurrection.pdf

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1109&context=lts_fac_pubs

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334971897_The_Case_for_Christ'_s_Resurrection

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53e39a58e4b0be61eeea6bb4/t/5e921a0514b45c6b9b6f35da/1586633221448/Historical+Evidence+for+the+Resurrection.pdf

 

[The Learner]

Those that are raised imperishable are not the unrighteous they are the righteous

Outline chapter 15, you will find Paul speaks of Ressurection in general to Christians.

 

[The Learner]

The Lazarus and rich man is a parable. It's not some historic event that happened.

Jesus still teaches Truth in parables. The text clearly teaches two compartments in the grave and those in both are awake. Isaiah 14:1-11 indicates that they sleep like we do and are awake at times too.

 

[The Learner]

My nap time

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

lol, it is not a contradiction because unveiling doctrine in Scripture is progressive. When you stick with gen 2, you are completely wrong, friend. Revelation clearly shows the definition, understanding of the word soul has progressed well beyond genesis.

I disagree that other scriptures disagree with Genesis 2:7 or says something different from Genesis 2:7. It's the way you choose to reason on scripture that is wrong. At Genesis 2:7 God is showing us or teaching us, how he created human beings. That scripture isn't inaccurate or in error in any way. All through the scriptures not just at Genesis 2:7 the scriptures show that human beings are living souls, not that human beings have living souls in their human bodies.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Outline chapter 15, you will find Paul speaks of Ressurection in general to Christians.

The first resurrection are those that will be kings, priests, and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom. They will be resurrected with immortal incorruptible spirit bodies, just as Jesus was. These are the ones who have imperishable spirit bodies.

Paul said at 1 Thessalonians 4:16 that those in union with Christ will rise first. Being in union with Christ, means they are considered righteous, they specifically are of the anointed, to be kings, judges, and priests in that heavenly Messianic kingdom Jesus is king of. The general resurrection will not happen until all the anointed, those that will be kings, priests, and judges with Jesus has been gathered and sealed.