The answer of hell and its origins

[RLT63]

2 Corinthians 5:8
Easy-to-Read Version
8 So I say that we have confidence. And we really want to be away from this body and be at home with the Lord.

Winner!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

"
Verse 10
Was cast (εβληθη). First aorist (prophetic, affective) passive indicative of βαλλω (verse Revelation 20:3).

Into the lake of fire and brimstone (εις την λιμνην του πυρος κα θειου). As in Revelation 19:20 with the two beasts, as he adds, "where are also the beast and the false prophet" (οπου κα το θηριον κα ο ψευδοπροφητης).

They shall be tormented (βασανισθησοντα). Return to the prophetic future of verses Revelation 20:7; Revelation 20:8. For βασανιζω see Revelation 9:5; Revelation 14:10. For "day and night" (ημερας κα νυκτος) see Revelation 4:8; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 12:10; Revelation 14:11. For "for ever and ever" (εις τους αιωνας τον αιωνων) see Revelation 1:6; Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 11:15, etc. The devil was cast down from heaven (Revelation 12:9), then imprisoned (Revelation 20:2), now he received his final doom." Revelation 20 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

Englishman's Concordance
βασανισθήσονται (basanisthēsontai) — 2 Occurrences
Revelation 9:5 V-FIP-3P
GRK: ἀλλ' ἵνα βασανισθήσονται μῆνας πέντε
NAS: anyone, but to torment for five
KJV: that they should be tormented five
INT: but that they should be tormented months five

Revelation 20:10 V-FIP-3P
GRK: ψευδοπροφήτης καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ
NAS: are also; and they will be tormented day
KJV: [are], and shall be tormented day
INT: false prophet and they will be tormented day and

Greek Concordance: βασανισθήσονται (basanisthēsontai) -- 2 Occurrences

The key to understanding the lake of fire is first the scriptures tells us the lake of fire is the second death, then the scriptures say that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
So you can go on and on all you want to but you're not going to convince me that death which is thrown into the lake of fire will feel any kind of pain, since it's not a person. So what happens when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it's destroyed out of existence, forever. So that means everyone and everything else that's thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed out of existence forever.

Revelation 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Last, I checked slain and beheaded means they are physically dead.

As the book of Revelation tells us, the book of Revelation was shown to John in signs. So you can't take everything in the book of Revelation literally, a lot of it is symbolic.
Since Genesis 2:7 tell us that human beings are souls, not that human beings have souls, Revelation 20:4 is to be taken symbolically because no scripture is going to contradict another scripture, meaning Revelation 20:4 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.
So anyone viewing Revelation 20:4 literally, believing these souls are disembodied souls that have separated from human bodies, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Not that many care about such truthful information. They would rather hang on desperately to the lie that human beings have living souls instead of agreeing with scripture that teach us that human beings are living souls.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

1 Thessalonians 4
Easy-to-Read Version
A Life That Pleases God
4 Brothers and sisters, now I have some other things to tell you. We taught you how to live in a way that will please God. And you are living that way. Now we ask and encourage you in the Lord Jesus to live that way more and more. 2 You know all that we told you to do by the authority of the Lord Jesus. 3 God wants you to be holy. He wants you to stay away from sexual sins. 4 God wants each one of you to learn to control your own body. Use your body in a way that is holy and that gives honor to God.[a] 5 Don’t let your sexual desires control you like the people who don’t know God. 6 Never wrong any of your fellow believers or cheat them in this way. The Lord will punish those who do that. We have already told you this and warned you about it. 7 God chose us to be holy. He does not want us to live in sin. 8 So anyone who refuses to obey this teaching is refusing to obey God, not us. And God is the one who gives you his Holy Spirit.

9 We don’t need to write to you about having love for your brothers and sisters in Christ. God has already taught you to love each other. 10 In fact, you love all the believers in Macedonia. We encourage you now, brothers and sisters, to show your love more and more.

11 Do all you can to live a peaceful life. Mind your own business, and earn your own living, as we told you before. 12 If you do these things, then those who are not believers will respect the way you live. And you will not have to depend on others for what you need.

The Lord’s Coming
13 Brothers and sisters, we want you to know about those who have died. We don’t want you to be sad like other people—those who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died, but we also believe that he rose again. So we believe that God will raise to life through Jesus any who have died and bring them together with him when he comes.

15 What we tell you now is the Lord’s own message. Those of us who are still living when the Lord comes again will join him, but not before those who have already died. 16 The Lord himself will come down from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. And the people who have died and were in Christ will rise first. 17 After that we who are still alive at that time will be gathered up with those who have died. We will be taken up in the clouds and meet the Lord in the air. And we will be with the Lord forever. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

Footnotes
1 Thessalonians 4:4 Or “God wants each of you to learn to live with your wife in a way that is holy and that gives honor to God.”

1 Thessalonians 4:17​

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King James Version​

​

​

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

"
THE TERM “RAPTURE”
First of all, the word “rapture” is found in the Bible, if you have the Latin Vulgate
produced by Jerome in the early 400s. The Vulgate was the main Bible of the medieval
Western Church until the Reformation. It continues to this day as the primary Latin
translation of the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, as we shall see later, it was Protestants
who introduced the word “rapture” into the English language from the Latin raeptius.
1
It
was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazô used by Paul,
under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is usually
translated into English with the phrase “caught up.” The leading Greek Lexicon says
that harpazô means “snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.”2
This is the
same meaning of the Latin word rapio “to seize, snatch, tear away.”3
It should not be
surprising to anyone, that an..." https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=pretrib_arch

I don't care what Bible you use, the apostle Paul was talking about the Resurrection of the dead. That's the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. You're not going to convince me to deny the resurrection of the dead.

 

[RLT63]

The key to understanding the lake of fire is first the scriptures tells us the lake of fire is the second death, then the scriptures say that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
So you can go on and on all you want to but you're not going to convince me that death which is thrown into the lake of fire will feel any kind of pain, since it's not a person. So what happens when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it's destroyed out of existence, forever. So that means everyone and everything else that's thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed out of existence forever.

As the book of Revelation tells us, the book of Revelation was shown to John in signs. So you can't take everything in the book of Revelation literally, a lot of it is symbolic.
Since Genesis 2:7 tell us that human beings are souls, not that human beings have souls, Revelation 20:4 is to be taken symbolically because no scripture is going to contradict another scripture, meaning Revelation 20:4 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.
So anyone viewing Revelation 20:4 literally, believing these souls are disembodied souls that have separated from human bodies, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Not that many care about such truthful information. They would rather hang on desperately to the lie that human beings have living souls instead of agreeing with scripture that teach us that human beings are living souls.

You are denying what the scripture says and your rationalizations are unconvincing

 

[Jack]

The key to understanding the lake of fire is first the scriptures tells us the lake of fire is the second death, then the scriptures say that death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire.
So you can go on and on all you want to but you're not going to convince me that death which is thrown into the lake of fire will feel any kind of pain, since it's not a person. So what happens when death is thrown into the lake of fire, it's destroyed out of existence, forever. So that means everyone and everything else that's thrown into the lake of fire will be destroyed out of existence forever.

As the book of Revelation tells us, the book of Revelation was shown to John in signs. So you can't take everything in the book of Revelation literally, a lot of it is symbolic.
Since Genesis 2:7 tell us that human beings are souls, not that human beings have souls, Revelation 20:4 is to be taken symbolically because no scripture is going to contradict another scripture, meaning Revelation 20:4 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.
So anyone viewing Revelation 20:4 literally, believing these souls are disembodied souls that have separated from human bodies, is contradicting Genesis 2:7. Not that many care about such truthful information. They would rather hang on desperately to the lie that human beings have living souls instead of agreeing with scripture that teach us that human beings are living souls.

Have you ever disagreed with Kingdom Hall doctrine where you were "taught" for decades?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

There you go folks! JW's believe that Jesus didn't exist for 3 days! IOW, no Savior!

Jesus did sacrifice his life, meaning he sacrificed that human body his human life for mankind. Jesus had to die as human beings do, which means he would have to cease to exist as a living person. If you're saying he was still living somewhere during the parts of three days he was said to be dead, then you're denying he was dead. Death and living are not the same thing. If you're dead, you can't think, feel, talk, see, etc. but if you're alive then you can think, feel, talk, see, etc. Jesus was dead for parts of three days, then on the third day, he was resurrected back into existence as a living person.

You are denying what the scripture says and your rationalizations are unconvincing

No just agreeing with Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons, not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.

Those that teach human beings have souls or living persons are contradicting Genesis 2:7. Like I said no scripture is going to contradict Genesis 2:7. So those who say human beings have souls will always be contradicting Genesis 2:7.

 

[RLT63]

Jesus did sacrifice his life, meaning he sacrificed that human body his human life for mankind. Jesus had to die as human beings do, which means he would have to cease to exist as a living person. If you're saying he was still living somewhere during the parts of three days he was said to be dead, then you're denying he was dead. Death and living are not the same thing. If you're dead, you can't think, feel, talk, see, etc. but if you're alive then you can think, feel, talk, see, etc. Jesus was dead for parts of three days, then on the third day, he was resurrected back into existence as a living person.

No just agreeing with Genesis 2:7 which tells us we are living souls or living persons, not that we have living souls or living persons in our human bodies.

Those that teach human beings have souls or living persons are contradicting Genesis 2:7. Like I said no scripture is going to contradict Genesis 2:7. So those who say human beings have souls will always be contradicting Genesis 2:7.

No you are contradicting Revelation 20:4. Rev 20:4 - And I saw-thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw-the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Jack]

Jesus did sacrifice his life, meaning he sacrificed that human body his human life for mankind. Jesus had to die as human beings do, which means he would have to cease to exist as a living person. If you're saying he was still living somewhere during the parts of three days he was said to be dead, then you're denying he was dead. Death and living are not the same thing. If you're dead, you can't think, feel, talk, see, etc. but if you're alive then you can think, feel, talk, see, etc. Jesus was dead for parts of three days, then on the third day, he was resurrected back into existence as a living person.

So Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days? Are you / Kingdom Hall saying that God "re-created" Jesus?

Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?

 

[RLT63]

So Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days? Are you / Kingdom Hall saying that God "re-created" Jesus?

Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?

They have to believe he was recreated because they don’t believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe he was a spirit and his body was secretly buried. If he was dead for 3 days and ceased to exist then he would have to be recreated, especially if he was only a spirit. I never thought of that before but you are correct

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Have you ever disagreed with Kingdom Hall doctrine where you were "taught" for decades?

I know you are not going by scripture but what a imperfect human or group of imperfect human beings have told you, which is that human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies,you're not going by scripture that says human beings are souls.

So Jesus "ceased to exist" for 3 days? Are you / Kingdom Hall saying that God "re-created" Jesus?

Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?

Jesus resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) He was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. Jesus was granted immortality and incorruption, which Jesus didn't have while on earth as a human being. While on earth as a human being Jesus was like the first Adam which is why Jesus is said to be the last Adam. So while on earth Jesus was a sinless human being with no sinful nature in his human flesh. No human being can have immortality and incorruption so Jesus body when he was resurrected was a immortal, incorruptible spirit body which a human being doesn't have, so he was made higher than the humans second only to YHWH God in the universe. Flesh and blood, meaning human beings can't live in heaven because as 1 Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God (Hebrews 7:26; 1Timothy 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)

 

[RLT63]

I know you are not going by scripture but what a imperfect human or group of imperfect human beings have told you, which is that human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies,you're not going by scripture that says human beings are souls.

Jesus resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) He was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. Jesus was granted immortality and incorruption, which Jesus didn't have while on earth as a human being. While on earth as a human being Jesus was like the first Adam which is why Jesus is said to be the last Adam. So while on earth Jesus was a sinless human being with no sinful nature in his human flesh. No human being can have immortality and incorruption so Jesus body when he was resurrected was a immortal, incorruptible spirit body which a human being doesn't have, so he was made higher than the humans second only to YHWH God in the universe. Flesh and blood, meaning human beings can't live in heaven because as 1 Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God (Hebrews 7:26; 1Timothy 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)

You are the one not going by scripture (Rev 20:4)

 

[Patrick1966]

The never ending punishment for the unrighteous is never ending death. The unrighteous, those that God has judged unworthy of eternal life will never exist as living persons again, that's the never ending punishment.

Incorrect my brother. From 1 Thessalonians 15:

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Patrick1966]

Winner!

It's common knowledge among most Christians that believers will NEVER die.

John 3:16
Young's Literal Translation
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They have to believe he was recreated because they don’t believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ. They believe he was a spirit and his body was secretly buried. If he was dead for 3 days and ceased to exist then he would have to be recreated, especially if he was only a spirit. I never thought of that before but you are correct

We know that Jesus was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spirit body because the scriptures tell us that Jesus sacrificed is perfect sinless human body, for mankind. He didn't take that sacrifice back which he would have done if he was resurrected with a perfect sinless human body again. The Scripture at 1 Peter 3:18 tells us that Jesus was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. So Jesus wasn't resurrected with a perfect sinless human body, but instead he was resurrected with a immortal, incorruptible spirit body. The scriptures show us at 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Jesus was made a life giving spirit.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Incorrect my brother. From 1 Thessalonians 15:

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't say that the righteous would receive punishment of any kind. At 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Paul is talking about the resurrection of the righteous.

I said that it was the unrighteous, meaning those that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection that would be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and it's these who are unrighteous that will receive the never ending punishment and that this never ending punishment was never ending death. It is these unrighteous that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection who will never exist again as living persons. Eternal life is never-ending life, God has never promised eternal life to the unrighteous, but instead they will be destroyed or punished with eternal death, never ending death.

 

[Patrick1966]

...they will be destroyed or punished with eternal death, never ending death.

Incorrect.

"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

This is on the last day. Jesus will resurrect the dead (remember, believers were resurrected first) and then ALL will be with God.

 

[Jack]

I didn't say that the righteous would receive punishment of any kind. At 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Paul is talking about the resurrection of the righteous.

I said that it was the unrighteous, meaning those that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection that would be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death, and it's these who are unrighteous that will receive the never ending punishment and that this never ending punishment was never ending death. It is these unrighteous that God has judged unworthy of a resurrection who will never exist again as living persons. Eternal life is never-ending life, God has never promised eternal life to the unrighteous, but instead they will be destroyed or punished with eternal death, never ending death.

The rich man in Luke 16 DIED but was quite alive in the fire. Kingdom Hall has duped you Barney. Your own JW bible has SERIOUS errors!

 

[Jack]

I know you are not going by scripture but what a imperfect human or group of imperfect human beings have told you, which is that human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies,you're not going by scripture that says human beings are souls.

Jesus resurrection was “in the spirit,” to life in heaven. (1Peter 3:18) He was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth. Jesus was granted immortality and incorruption, which Jesus didn't have while on earth as a human being. While on earth as a human being Jesus was like the first Adam which is why Jesus is said to be the last Adam. So while on earth Jesus was a sinless human being with no sinful nature in his human flesh. No human being can have immortality and incorruption so Jesus body when he was resurrected was a immortal, incorruptible spirit body which a human being doesn't have, so he was made higher than the humans second only to YHWH God in the universe. Flesh and blood, meaning human beings can't live in heaven because as 1 Corinthians 15:50 says flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God (Hebrews 7:26; 1Timothy 6:14-16; Philippians 2:9-11; Acts 2:34; 1Corinthians 15:27)

You didn't answer my question. Even your NWT says you are wrong.

"Have you ever disagreed with any Kingdom Hall / Watchtower doctrines? Have they ever been wrong? Or do you think they are gods?"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Incorrect.

"For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed."

This is on the last day. Jesus will resurrect the dead (remember, believers were resurrected first) and then ALL will be with God.

Those that are raised imperishable are not the unrighteous they are the righteous

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The rich man in Luke 16 DIED but was quite alive in the fire. Kingdom Hall has duped you Barney. Your own JW bible has SERIOUS errors!

The Lazarus and rich man is a parable. It's not some historic event that happened.