The answer of hell and its origins

[face2face]

Simple question ,is Christ still in the grave , thinking you know the answer is no , so why would you think those who die are still in some hole in the ground ?

1 Corinthians 15:23 to start with.
Christ is the firstborn from the dead meaning he is the first man to ever be raised to divine nature...to date no others, all awaiting the resurrection.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Face2face honest mistakes and misunderstandings are ever before us as we continue to live and search for truth. But am I mistaken with revelations 11:8. Sometimes things be allegorical, poetic and parables within our wonderful book the bible. But also much of the bible is literal. I see no reason why a literal interpretation need not be followed here. The passage says what it says revelations 11: 8 ( and their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, which is also where our Lord was crucified. ) it should be noted that the great city is no longer called the Holy city and for good reason because it has now become great in evil being compared as sexually decadent as Sodom and corrupt with enslavement as Egypt once was. that is what is being expressed. With literal emphasis clearly added on the locality ( which is also where our Lord was crucified ) which being Jerusalem and certainly not Rome. Whilst Rome did reluctantly give the final authority of Christ’s crucifixion it was at the continued behest of the Jewish authorities. And it was still physical Jerusalem that this passage is referring to. Oh Israel Oh Israel thou that killest the prophets does come to mind just as with the 2 future witnesses who shall met their fate in Jerusalem too. Face2face we simply disagree to disagree I guess.

Lovely spirit about your reply thanks
Ad70 has already happened and now its the apostate Christianity and the persecution of the true saints in God throughout the last 2000 years, which is in view. Every age has a vision and it's own prophetical encouragement to strengthen faith.

The city referred to in Rev 11 is Babylon the Great as per Revelation 16:19, whose headquarters is in Rome as per Revelation 17:18. The "street" or main division of this city is France, sometimes called the eldest son of the Church. It was in France that the full weight of the Papal war of extermination against the witnesses took place.

As you can imagine unpacking this can take a long time and it involves understanding how God has worked in the Nations over the past 2000 years. I'll understand if you want to hold to your current understanding.

In his service
F2F

 

[Dropship]

Regarding the "new bodies /new earth" belief, will our departed grannies and grandads get a new body of how they looked when they were young?

 

[Dropship]

Can anybody explain this slightly puzzling verse about when Mary Magdalene saw the risen Jesus and presumably wanted to give him a great big hug?-
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
Why did he say not to touch him?
Was he a spirit (ghost) and knew she'd be scared if her arms passed through him?
Later of course, he appeared to the disciples in solid fleshly form and even invited Thomas to touch his wounds.

 

[face2face]

Can anybody explain this slightly puzzling verse about when Mary Magdalene saw the risen Jesus and presumably wanted to give him a great big hug?-
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
Why did he say not to touch him?
Was he a spirit (ghost) and knew she'd be scared if her arms passed through him?
Later of course, he appeared to the disciples in solid fleshly form and even invited Thomas to touch his wounds.

One view is the Lord knew her admiration for him was great and once she held on it may take some time delaying him from seeing his God/Father.

I imagine Mary’s mind was full of all sorts of ideas but Jesus leaving again would doubtless have been the last thing on her mind, though doubtless she did not grasp fully the implications of what she was experiencing!

Also, Jesus had things for her to do so getting her prepared for this work was high priority after all she was the one to tell the disciples he was risen.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Can anybody explain this slightly puzzling verse about when Mary Magdalene saw the risen Jesus and presumably wanted to give him a great big hug?-
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (John 20:17)
Why did he say not to touch him?
Was he a spirit (ghost) and knew she'd be scared if her arms passed through him?
Later of course, he appeared to the disciples in solid fleshly form and even invited Thomas to touch his wounds.

Dropship, also have a look at the geek "touch me not" - somewhere I read a footnote: “Do not continue to cling” in the present tense. It may seem Mary fell at his feet and was clinging to him. Again if this was the case it would explain why Jesus didn't want to be delayed too long.

 

[face2face]

14:12 I tell you the solemn truth, the person who believes in me •will perform the miraculous deeds that I am doing, and will perform greater deeds than these, because I am going to the Father.

Motivation of a higher purpose and relationship with God awaited him!

14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

Mary probably assumed he had merely returned to his old life, and did not understand the extent of his victory over death.

A few thoughts for you to ponder.

F2F

 

[Prim]

Thanks for a civil discussion . Okay ,let's continue ,it started with Eve , actually no , it actually started at the rebellion ,however that's a different subject even though they're tied together. With Eve Cain and Abel were twins by different fathers ,that's why Cain has his own genealogy . Gonna zoom to Noah (Gen 6)

To start , yes it was millions of people on earth at this time ,considering as you said how long they lived .

Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."

At this point in the chapter wickedness was great in the world , however the angels were only concerned with the seedline of the woman, Eve

Genesis 6:9 "These are THE GENERATIONS OF NOAH; Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Hoah walked with God."

The term, "and perfect in his generations," is referring only to his ancestry. Does it mean there was no sin in them? No; for we know sin came into this world through his ancestors, because the Bible clearly tells us of the sins of Adam and eve in Genesis 3, and Enos in Generation 4:26. Both Noah, and his wife came from families which are recorded in the scriptures, as not mixing with the fallen angels. Neither of them had a drop of angels blood in their veins.

The word "generations" in the Hebrew text is # 8735 in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, and comes from the Hebrew prime; "Toledoth", and means family tree, or history. When we take "family history called "perfect", in the Hebrew text it is called "tamin", that family is "without blemish as to breed, or pedigree".

This verse does not speak of Noah's moral perfection, but tells us that he and his family had preserved their pedigree, and kept it pure, inspire of the prevailing corruption brought about by the fallen angels, [their children were called "Nephilim"].

Lets look at Gen 6 from the companion Bible


This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of


the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15. If this could be accomplished,

God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted.

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through

ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4,

"and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the

first irruption). The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of

Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed. For, when Abraham

entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in

the land."

In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere

with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in

"Isaac". This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18.

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and

important subject of Biblical study. In each case the human instrument had his

own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view.

Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of

which his servants and people were wholly ignorant. The following assaults of

the great Enemy stand out prominently :--

l The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20.

l The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c. Cp. Ex. 2:5.


Heb. 11:23.

l The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14.

l After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for


assault. Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by

Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1. Jehoram killed off all his

brothers (2Chron. 21:4).

l The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1).

l When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10).


the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of

Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3).

l Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of


Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1). God's faithfulness was

appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136).

l In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole


nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13. Cp. 6:1).

l Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20). Notwithstanding the fact


that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary

stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her.

But God intervened : "Fear not".

l Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2).

l At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation.

l At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down


and destroy Him.

l The two storms on the Lake were other attempts.

l At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set;


and the stone sealed. But "God raised Him from the dead." And now, like

another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the

house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden

there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to

witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3).

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and

was directed against the whole human race.

l When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked.

l When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked.

l And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst


upon Him.

Face2face civil discussion is always good when truth is honestly pursued. You quote me saying it started with Eve. You say no it actually started with the rebellion. Face2face I think I did mention the 1st rebellion of the angels. As to Cain and Abel being twins the bible does not specifically say that. But the pairing of Cain and Able is noted and maybe the possibility of them being twins is not out the question and not only for the notoriety of being the world’s first murder. And considering that Adam & Eve had other children yet much more emphasis is placed upon Cain & Able. As to fathering of possible twins by two different fathers. It is known well enough in the medical world as heteropaternal superfecunoation where a ladies eggs are spermed and fertilised by 2 or more men. And with the word beguile used in the seduction of Eves mind by the serpent in the garden the word could also imply sexual seduction as well. And of course the matter of angels being able to procreate with humanity is settled in genesis chapter 6. Though some do teach that genesis 6 was all about the godly line of men desiring after the ungodly line of woman which does beg the question were godly woman so undesirable to look upon ? I think not. The fact that angels are also able to transform themselves into human form is also another interesting factor. Angels are always classified as masculine in the bible and seems that they would be unable to breed amongst themselves for that very reason but seems they can breed with humanity. The long history of Satan attempting to destroy Gods people and the holy line for the future Saviour of the world is a long and intriguing one. Thank you it be far more in-depth than I realised.

 

[Behold]

Where in the Bible are we shown this fire?

Why are you asking Troll questions?
You are not going to believe it, so, why keep asking?

A.) Troll.

Here you go.

Jesus said... """"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:""""

Mark 9:43

 

[face2face]

Why are you asking Troll questions?
You are not going to believe it, so, why keep asking?

A.) Troll.

Here you go.

Jesus said... """"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into e fire that never shall be quenched:""""

Mark 9:43

Behold, you have a problem with the verse you quoted. Careful reading is very important and in this case you have thought "I'll give him a verse which states hell & fire and that will do!" Only problem is, in the same verse you have Jesus teaching to cut your hand off if it offends and I'm really hoping you haven't taken that verse literally. It would certainly make typing a response rather difficult.

So here is your challenge.

Explain to me the spiritual significance of the Lord's teaching concerning the hand being cut off and then further explain the spiritual significance of going into hell where the fire is unquenchable. Jesus is using imagery to teach you - are you teachable that is the question.

Maybe now you can see why I asked you to find a verse which showed this fire.

 

[Prim]

Why are you asking Troll questions?
You are not going to believe it, so, why keep asking?

A.) Troll.

Here you go.

Jesus said... """"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:""""

Mark 9:43

Behold not so sure about Face2face being a troll. After it be his post.

 

[Earburner]

Face2face honest mistakes and misunderstandings are ever before us as we continue to live and search for truth. But am I mistaken with revelations 11:8. Sometimes things be allegorical, poetic and parables within our wonderful book the bible. But also much of the bible is literal. I see no reason why a literal interpretation need not be followed here. The passage says what it says revelations 11: 8 ( and their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, which is also where our Lord was crucified. ) it should be noted that the great city is no longer called the Holy city and for good reason because it has now become great in evil being compared as sexually decadent as Sodom and corrupt with enslavement as Egypt once was. that is what is being expressed. With literal emphasis clearly added on the locality ( which is also where our Lord was crucified ) which being Jerusalem and certainly not Rome. Whilst Rome did reluctantly give the final authority of Christ’s crucifixion it was at the continued behest of the Jewish authorities. And it was still physical Jerusalem that this passage is referring to. Oh Israel Oh Israel thou that killest the prophets does come to mind just as with the 2 future witnesses who shall met their fate in Jerusalem too. Face2face we simply disagree to disagree I guess.

I agree with your understanding 99.9%.
However, what is not understood by most is, the two witnesses were sent by God to the Jews First, and have been witnessing by their recorded words, ever since Pentecost, for all of the time of God's Age of Grace continues. The two witnesses have been John the Baptist and Jesus, which was a joint ministry.
The ministry of John lasted 6 months.
The ministry of Jesus lasted for 3 years. Both combined equals 3.5 years, aka 1260 days.
Rev.11[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses [two anointed- Zech. 4:11-14], and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The two witnesses are not Moses and Elijah or anyone else. Therefore, the prophecy of Malachi 4:5 was fulfilled. Listen closely, as to how Jesus explained it in
Matt.11:11-15
[11] Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not RISEN a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
(The "least" of all of God's servants unto His will, is Jesus Himself).

To this day the church is still foolishly looking for two witnesses to come, pointing to the Transfiguration as being something for evidence, when in reality, Jesus told them beforehand what they would see:
John.1[51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Thank you for your confirmation of His Truth. I hope that what I have said helps.
Earburner

 

[Jack]

Behold, you have a problem with the verse you quoted. Careful reading is very important and in this case you have thought "I'll give him a verse which states hell & fire and that will do!" Only problem is, in the same verse you have Jesus teaching to cut your hand off if it offends and I'm really hoping you haven't taken that verse literally. It would certainly make typing a response rather difficult.

So here is your challenge.

Explain to me the spiritual significance of the Lord's teaching concerning the hand being cut off and then further explain the spiritual significance of going into hell where the fire is unquenchable. Jesus is using imagery to teach you - are you teachable that is the question.

Maybe now you can see why I asked you to find a verse which showed this fire.

Even a little child could understand what Jesus said. "it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into e fire that never shall be quenched:" It takes Kingdom Hall to twist it to not mean what Jesus said!

 

[Earburner]

Even a little child could understand what Jesus said. "it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into e fire that never shall be quenched:" It takes Kingdom Hall to twist it to not mean what Jesus said!

Actually, the Fire that IGNITES the fire to burn up "hell" (the graves) is God's all consuming Fire of His Eternal self. Therefore, once all the earth, the unsaved, and the works therein (grave digging is a work) are burned up by fervent heat, the Lake of Fire (molten lava over the entire globe) will leave nothing left.
KJV 2 Peter 3[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved [on another topic], be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day [the current Age of God's Grace].
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of His salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[10] But [back to the first topic] the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
When there is nothing left (no fuel for the fire) that fire, ignited by His Eternal Fire of Himself, will go out.

 

[face2face]

Actually, the Fire that IGNITES the fire to burn up "hell" (the graves) is God's all consuming Fire of His Eternal self. Therefore, once all the earth, the unsaved, and the works therein (grave digging is a work) are burned up by fervent heat, the Lake of Fire (molten lava over the entire globe) will leave nothing left.
KJV 2 Peter 3[6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
[7] But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
[8] But, beloved [on another topic], be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day [the current Age of God's Grace].
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise [of His salvation], as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[10] But [back to the first topic] the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up
When there is nothing left (no fuel for the fire) that fire, ignited by His Eternal Fire of Himself, will go out.

Have you considered His covenant with Noah?
Not total destruction as there is plenty of evidence to show the nations will still be in force when Christ takes power.

 

[Earburner]

14:28 You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.

Mary probably assumed he had merely returned to his old life, and did not understand the extent of his victory over death.

A few thoughts for you to ponder.

And here is a single thought for you to ponder:
So when will it be/was it that "the KoG cometh not with observation", and how long shall/was His Second Coming/manifestation suppose to last?

 

[Earburner]

Have you considered His covenant with Noah?
Not total destruction as there is plenty of evidence to show the nations will still be in force when Christ takes power.

Yes. Only eight persons were saved. The covenant was for the future that God would not destroy the world with water again, but....... with fire? Yes, that He will surely do!
Therefore you should reconsider that how the earth was re-populated after Noah, it IS NOT going to be a literal, similar outcome when Jesus comes the third time.

1 Cor. 2[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Regurgitations of church-ianity, using the Pre-mil doctrine, to filter all scripture through, is not good.
1 Corinthians 2:5

 

[face2face]

And here is a single thought for you to ponder:
So when will it be/was that "the KoG cometh not with observation", and how long shall/was His Second Coming/manifestation suppose to last?

Well, lets look at the first reference in Luke 17:20 (red text to show context)

17:20 Now at one point the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God was coming, so he answered, “The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, 17:21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

The Pharisee "demanded", which is the meaning of "to ask", which captures the spirit of inquiry! Thankfully your question wasn't given in the same spirit

Context is important!

If Jesus is the Messiah, where is all the evidence of a dramatic Jewish revival? (this view was based on many prophecies the Jews thought would be fulfilled in the Messiahs coming - expected a Lion and they got a lamb!)

Have you looked at the meaning of “Not with observation”?

The translators struggled with interpreting it's meaning:

NET notes:
tn Or “is not coming in a way that it can be closely watched” (L&N 24.48). Although there are differing interpretations of what this means, it probably refers to the cosmic signs often associated with the kingdom’s coming in the Jewish view (1 En. 91, 93; 2 Bar. 53–74). See D. L. Bock, Luke (BECNT), 2:1412–14, also H. Riesenfeld, TDNT 8:150.

My view on this text should be read "not with careful watching”. Only other occurrence is a related word used of their critical watching of him See Mark 3:2, Luke 14:1; Luke 20:20

The kingdom would come, not with their careful watching but will burst upon them expectantly!

Then we have Luke 17:21 to finish Jesus' lesson

“Lo here, lo there” – to mean it (KoG) will not be announced by men, nor will it be just a local phenomena “The kingdom of God” – Grk. signifies “sovereignty” - royal power and majesty.

“Gods royal majesty is among you” “Within you” – Of course it wasn't ‘within’ the Pharisees. It was “in the midst of you” or better translated “among you”!

So the Pharisees forcibly ask of the signs of the Kingdom knowing it would manifest with mighty signs and wonders - this was a way of interrogating the Lord to try and make him slip up as they wanted him to do.

What they didn't realise is God's royal presence (through His Son) as the center of God’s kingdom was already in their midst and they couldn't recognize him. Matthew 12:28

The same will happen when Christ returns a second time but this time orthodox Christianity will take the place of the Pharisee.

I wont go into that now as it's difficult to control this type of knowledge in a forum setting.

As a side note; so few Christians read with context in mind so they misquote a Scripture - very few being shown this are humble enough to say okay I got that wrong and I have much to learn. Most will try to force the Scripture to mean something else.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Yes. Only eight persons were saved. The covenant was for the future that God would not destroy the world with water again, but....... with fire? Yes, that He will surely do!
Therefore you should reconsider that how the earth was re-populated after Noah, it IS NOT going to be a literal, similar outcome when Jesus comes the third time.

1 Cor. 2[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Regurgitations of church-ianity, using the Pre-mil doctrine, to filter all scripture through is not good.
1 Corinthians 2:5

A tip for your Bible reading and study - have a look at imagery which is exaggerated. Exaggeration is a common technique in the Scripture to communicate the severity of something. When you read of total destruction it's not a literal event but rather showing the reader its going to be a time of great judgement. If you want examples let me know.

 

[face2face]

Behold not so sure about Face2face being a troll. After it be his post.

It's interesting how convinced some Christians can be and invested in this false understanding of the fate of the wicked. @Behold I assume you saw my post and am I to assume you will let that one fall to the ground? Hoping for humility over ignor-ance.
F2F