The answer of hell and its origins
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Those that truly believe are the ones who exercise faith in that ransom sacrifice. There will be many who will not exercise faith in that ransom sacrifice. Just because you say Jesus is the son of God and you say he sacrificed his life for mankind doesn't mean you're exercising faith in that ransom sacrifice.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Nearly every English translation says you're wrong. Even the JW Bible.
"They will be tormented day and night FOREVER and EVER!
Greetings Brother, Freing Patrick, I am tired and losing where I got things from. Keep me in prayer for compete shoulder Surgery and care giver of 9 other Seniors.
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
“You will note that the SAME Greek word, “αἰώνιος” is used for the English, “eternal”. The one is for the “unrighteous”, and the other, for the “righteous”. BOTH must have the same force and therefore the same duration. There is NO reason, except for one’s theological bias, to suppose that the meaning of “αἰώνιος” is different in both places. To say that hell is not “eternal”, you must also say that neither is heaven, for the righteous!”(this may be from A.T. Robertson's Word Studies set).
Looks like it has been discussed here before: The meaning of αἰώνιος/aionios and αἰών/aion.
www.blueletterbible.org
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For those arguing for some form of temporal punishment for non-believers citing the Greek word aiōnion, which they say may not be eternal but only age long, I ask for consistency. To be consistent, the advocates of temporal punishment would have to say for believers that life eternal may be only age long or temporal. To argue this is absurd since the same Greek word for everlasting punishment and life eternal is used in the Matthew passage.
The proponents of temporal punishment are committing a fallacy that is known as amphiboly, which comes from the Greek word “indeterminate.” This fallacy is similar to equivocation. Here, the ambiguity results from an inconsistent grammatical misreading. Consequently, since the same Greek word used to refer to both “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal,” it is a biblical conclusion that both believers and non-believers have an eternal/immortal soul."
G166 - aiōnios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (niv)
G166 - αἰώνιος aiṓnios, ahee-o'-nee-os; from ; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):—eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
www.blueletterbible.org
"
For those arguing for some form of temporal punishment for non-believers citing the Greek word aiōnion, which they say may not be eternal but only age long, I ask for consistency. To be consistent, the advocates of temporal punishment would have to say for believers that life eternal may be only age long or temporal. To argue this is absurd since the same Greek word for everlasting punishment and life eternal is used in the Matthew passage.
The proponents of temporal punishment are committing a fallacy that is known as amphiboly, which comes from the Greek word “indeterminate.” This fallacy is similar to equivocation. Here, the ambiguity results from an inconsistent grammatical misreading. Consequently, since the same Greek word used to refer to both “everlasting punishment” and “life eternal,” it is a biblical conclusion that both believers and non-believers have an eternal/immortal soul."
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
A ransom is a price paid to provide a release from captivity, punishment, suffering, sin, or even an obligation. The price is not always monetary. (Isaiah 43:3)
For example, all firstborn boys or male animals in Israel belonged to Jehovah, and a ransom, or redemption price, needed to be paid to release them from exclusive use in Jehovah’s service. (Numbers 3:45, 46; 18:15, 16)
To take refuge in YHWH God, then, we must exercise faith in Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, because it was YHWH God who provided this Ransom for mankind. We can't just simply acknowledge the ransom’s value in helping vast numbers of people. Instead we have to exercise faith that the ransom applies to you personally. (Gal. 2:20, 21) Have faith that the ransom is the basis for forgiving your sins. Having faith that the ransom offers you the hope of eternal life. Jesus’ sacrifice is Jehovah’s gift to mankind.
The apostle Paul wrote: “With the heart one exercises faith.” (Rom. 10:10) A person must not only believe the truth but also value it. Only then will he be motivated to exercise faith, that is, to ACT IN HARMONY with the TRUTH. (Jas. 2:20) A person who does not have heartfelt gratitude for the truth will reject even convincing evidence if he stubbornly holds on to preconceived ideas or seeks to excuse his fleshly desires. (2 Pet. 3:3, 4; Jude 18) This is why in Bible times, not all who witnessed miracles developed faith.They saw the miracles but when you read the scriptures about Jesus Christ the majority of the Jews didn't agree with the things he said even though they were the truth. (Num. 14:11; John 12:37) God’s holy spirit produces faith only in people whose heart favors the truth over lies.—Gal. 5:22; 2 Thess. 2:10, 11.
What I'm trying to say is that there are many people who say Jesus is the Son of God and who say it was the son of God who died for them and he was resurrected three days after his death by God. But they refuse to believe the truths about him. Like today many believe Jesus to be God. They don't believe he was and is the only begotten Son of God who is the Word who became flesh. But as long as they believe such an idea they are not confessing it was the only begotten Son of God who is the Word who became flesh and came to the world of mankind. So they don't exercise faith in the truth about Jesus. They instead believe it was God who is the Word who became flesh and came to the world of mankind. So not believing the truth about God and his only begotten Son even though they say they believe John 3:16 isn't truly exercising faith in the truth that's in the scriptures.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
But those verses were speaking of an age and what it's saying is that, prior to the resurrection of ALL people, some will be sent to Heaven for the remainder of the age(s) and some will be sent to the Lake of Fire for the remainder of the age(s). At the end of that age(s), all are resurrected and join God in his kingdom in the new Earth, or at least this is my understanding.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Well, if "Hell" is indeed FOREVER, then a whole bunch of verses in the Bible are FALSE, such as 1 Timothy 4:10 and MANY others.
1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
A Biblical Response:
First, while in some texts the word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) may refer to "the age to come" or "age" (Luke 1:70, etc.) in Matthew 25:46 we read:
The Greek word [aionios] is used numerous times in the New Testament. In addition to being used for, an eternal covenant (Heb 13:20), an eternal kingdom (2 Pet 1:11), an eternal dominion (1 Tim 6:16), an eternal gospel (Rev 14:6), an eternal redemption (Heb 9:12), an eternal salvation (Heb 5:9), an eternal inheritance (Heb 9:15), an eternal comfort (2 Thess 2:16), an eternal weight of glory (2 Cor 4:17-18; cf. 2 Tim 2:10; 1 Pet 5:10), and an eternal house (2 Cor 5:1), it is also used (1) three times to describe God's eternal nature (Rom 16:26; 1 Tim 6:16; Heb 9:14), (2) numerous times to describe the unending happiness of the redeemed (Rom 5:21; 6:23; 1 John 1:2, et. al.); and (3) five times to refer to the punishment of the wicked (Matt 18:8; 25:41, 46; 2 Thess 1:9; Jude 1:7).
In Matthew 25:46, the identical word "eternal" (Greek, aionios) is mentioned twice: (1) once in regard to the righteous and (2) and again in regards to the unrighteous. So, if the punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is merely temporary and if the Annilhilationist is consistent in thier interpretation method, then Heaven, God's covenant, God's kingdom, God's dominion, the Gospel, the saint's redemption, the saint's salvation, the saint's inheritance, the saint's comfort, God's and the saint's glory, the saint's eternal home, the saint's happiness, AND God's very nature are all temporary too! If the Annihilationist doesn't believe in the necessary conclusion of their interpretation, then they need to repent and abandon the false doctrine of Annihilationism. If they fail to abandon Annihilationism then; "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).
In Matthew 25:46 the contrast is clear that there is a different quality of existence that is "endless" in both cases. Moreover, when this verse is read in its fuller context, including Matthew 25:41, speaking of the unbeliever in "eternal fire," a conscious state of torment and painful judgment is clearly understood. The "eternal fire" that unbelievers are cast into (Matt 25:41) is the same "eternal fire" the devil and his angels are cast into; where they are tormented "forever and ever" (Rev 20:10). Therefore, in context "eternal" must mean "forever and ever," "endless," "everlasting," or "eternity" (cf. 2 Thess 1:9). Hell is forever; it is an endless place of torment!
Second, God lives "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:18; 10:6; 15:7), and glory, which includes God's holy and just wrath against the wicked (Isa 5:16; Rom 9:22-23; cf. Rev 18:20; 19:2-3), is to be given to him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 1:6; 4:9-10; 5:13; 7:12), and since the righteous in Christ shall reign with him "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 22:5), then the wicked surely will be tormented day and night "for ever [aion] and ever [aion]" (Rev 20:10; cf. Rev 14:11).
Third, "eternal life" means more than a mere "eternal existence." A rock has an existence, but it's not alive. Eternal life has a living beginning point; so does eternal damnation. John 3:36 states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Here as in other places "eternal life" is spoken of as a present possession (John 5:24; 6:54; 1 John 5:11, 13). As "eternal life" is a present (John 17:3) and future reality (Matt 25:46), so the unbeliever is under the living "wrath of God" now (John 3:36) and in the future (Matt 25:46). So, eternity has already begun and will never end. The wrath of God upon the unbeliever has already begun; they are "condemned already" (John 3:18).
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
God is eternal and has no "beginning point". Nothing else is eternal.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
If Hell is forever, then this verse is false.
2 Samuel 14:14, ESV: We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
2 Samuel 14:14, ESV: We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.
Hi Brother, I will be kicked off by my wife soon. We both know context matters.
1 Timothy 4
Easy-to-Read Version
A Warning About False Teachers
4 The Spirit clearly says that in the last times some will turn away from what we believe. They will obey spirits that tell lies. And they will follow the teachings of demons. 2 Those teachings come through people who tell lies and trick others. These evil people cannot see what is right and what is wrong. It is like their conscience has been destroyed with a hot iron. 3 They say that it is wrong to marry. And they say that there are some foods that people must not eat. But God made these foods, and those who believe and who understand the truth can eat them with thanks. 4 Everything that God made is good. Nothing he made should be refused if it is accepted with thanks to him. 5 Everything he created is made holy by what he has said and by prayer.Be a Good Servant of Christ Jesus
6 Tell this to the brothers and sisters there. This will show that you are a good servant of Christ Jesus. You will show that you are made strong by the words of faith and good teaching you have followed. 7 People tell silly stories that don’t agree with God’s truth. Don’t follow what these stories teach. But teach yourself to be devoted to God. 8 Training your body helps you in some ways. But devotion to God helps you in every way. It brings you blessings in this life and in the future life too. 9 Here is a true statement that should be accepted without question: 10 We hope in the living God, the Savior of all people. In particular, he is the Savior of all those who believe in him. This is why we work and struggle.11 Command and teach these things. 12 You are young, but don’t let anyone treat you as if you are not important. Be an example to show the believers how they should live. Show them by what you say, by the way you live, by your love, by your faith, and by your pure life.
13 Continue to read the Scriptures to the people, encourage them, and teach them. Do this until I come. 14 Remember to use the gift you have, which was given to you through a prophecy[a] when the group of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Continue to do these things. Give your life to doing them. Then everyone can see that your work is progressing. 16 Be careful in your life and in your teaching. Continue to live and teach rightly. Then you will save yourself and those who listen to your teaching.
Footnotes
- 1 Timothy 4:14 prophecy Something said about Timothy’s life before that thing happened.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
If ALL aren't saved, then this verse is FALSE.
Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Romans 11:32 esv
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
If Hell is FOREVER, then this verse is false.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as one trespass led to condemnation for all men so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men
Romans 5:18 Therefore as one trespass led to condemnation for all men so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men
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