The Baptism With The Holy Spirit (A Scriptural Study)

[242006]

Watchman-2 says:
the gifts listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10 are merely the skills each of us possess and they are given by God at birth
there is no such thing as tongues being the evidence upon becoming a true believer
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1 Corinthians 12

Spiritual Gifts: Unity in Diversity
[sup]
[sup][/sup]1[/sup] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant: [sup]
[sup][/sup]2[/sup] You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led. [sup]
[sup][/sup]3[/sup] Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed,
and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

The word 'gifts' is italicized, which means it does not exist in the Bible manuscripts. It is very easy to verify if you check out the scripture with Strong's Concordance numbering -

1Co 12:1​

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Now[sup]G1161 concerningG4012 spiritualG4152 gifts, brethren,G80 I wouldG2309 notG3756 have youG5209 ignorant.G50

​

[/sup]There is no Strong's number associated therewith 'gifts', thereby confirming that it does not exist in the Bible manuscripts.

Whereas Apostle Paul did have the word rendered as 'gifts' in his lexicon/vocabulary as proven by this scripture -

Rom 11:29​

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For[sup]G1063 theG3588 giftsG5486 andG2532 callingG2821 of GodG2316 are without repentance.G278

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[/sup]Certainly, if Paul intended 1 Cor. 12:1 to read 'spritual gifts', it was within his vernacular to do so. Conversely, since Paul did not say 'gifts' [G5486] in 1 Cor. 12:1 when the word was within his vocabulary, one can only conclude that it was an improper insertion by the translators.

[sup]4[/sup] There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

[sup]
[sup][/sup]5[/sup] There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
[sup]6[/sup] And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. [sup]
[sup][/sup]7[/sup] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:
[sup]8[/sup] for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
[sup]9[/sup] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[sup][/sup] Spirit, [sup]
[sup][/sup]10[/sup] to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits,
to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.

Just like I have been telling you dunderheads, these diversities of gifts are the ordinary skills that we are given at birth by God -- irrespective of whether one is a Christian or not. See Rom. 11:29 above.

In 12:7, the Spirt is the manifestation. The word 'of' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts. Check it out in Strong's -


[sup]1Co 12:7 But[sup]G1161 theG3588 manifestationG5321 of theG3588 SpiritG4151 is givenG1325 to every manG1538 toG4314 profitG4851 withal.

[/sup]<P style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>There is no Strong's number associated therewith. Once again, the word 'of', which also means 'from', was within Pauls vocabulary as shown in this scripture.

Rom 1:3​

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Concerning[sup]G4012 hisG848 SonG5207 JesusG2424 ChristG5547 ourG2257 Lord,G2962 whichG3588 was madeG1096 ofG1537 the seedG4690 of DavidG1138 accordingG2596 to the flesh;G4561

​

[/sup]If Paul intended to mean that the manifestation was given by the Holy Spirit in 12:7, he would have actually used the word 'of' [G1537]. Since Paul did not, one correctly concludes that the 'manifestation' spoken of in 12:7 IS the Spirit.

11 [/sup]But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Just what I have been telling you dunderheads, it is the Spirit working with the skills given by God ['all these things'-- listed above in 12:8-10].

The deity "He" does not exist in the manuscripts in this scripture -

1Co 12:11​

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But[sup]G1161 allG3956 theseG5023 workethG1754 that oneG1520 andG2532 theG3588 selfsameG846 Spirit,G4151 dividingG1244 to every manG1538 severallyG2398 asG2531 he will.G1014

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[/sup]The word 'will' means -

<B>

G1014

​

</B>

βούλομαι

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boulomai

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boo'-lom-ahee

​

Middle voice of a primary verb; to "will", that is, (reflexively) be willing: - be disposed, minded, intend, list (be, of own) will (-ing). Compare​

G2309.

​

The scripture is not speaking of the Holy Spirit's 'will', but is referring to those of mankind that 'are willing'. The Holy Spirit works with those gifts given by God within those that are willing.

Referring to 12:1,
"Spiritual gifts here may refer to spiritual things or spiritual persons." (Nelson's NKJV Study Bible)

In 1 Cor. chapters 12, 13, 14 ... "gifts" is usually in italics, meaning the word was added.

So, the 9 "gifts" in purple are NOT really gifts, but manifestations of the Spirit.

Your first quote in red ... complete and total rubbish.

Your second quote in red ... true statement.
Tongues are the confirmation of receiving the H.S. baptism (not salvation).

Nonsense -- already addressed above!

"Well, I met the burden of proof -- there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts." - Watchman


-- Watchman, read the post just before this one. Then open your eyes.

I did open my eyes -- it is the same drivel all tongue-twisters and charismatics throw at Christians.

It is time for you to open your eyes -- your religion is not Bible based.

 

[John Zain]

Greetings, Watchman-2 ...

Too bad you didn’t read my entire post before responding.

Romans 11:29 ---- God never takes back gifts that are given,
i.e. He never changes His mind about giving them.

This has nothing to do with God giving these at birth to ALL people.

We hope you are humble enough to accept correction.

When I was evangelising in Bulgaria in 1994, flying along dangerous
mountain roads with no guard rails, etc., God spoke to me and said
He had given me these gifts and abilities to do this work for Him.

But, at birth, or before, or later?
Was I predestined (to do this) before the foundation of the world,
Or was I chosen and called during my lifetime?
This is the question we had back then.

Of course, the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in the 9 spiritual “gifts”.
Tongues, as an example, certainly is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
These things certainly have nothing to do with any abilities of the believer.

The scripture is not speaking of the Holy Spirit's 'will',
but is referring to those of mankind that 'are willing'.
The Holy Spirit works with those gifts given by God
within those that are willing.

I believe it is obvious that BOTH the Holy Spirit and the believers must be willing.

 

[veteran]

John,

I agree there are some denominations that say The Holy Spirit doesn't work today as in the days of Christ's Apostles anymore. I was raised in a Church that taught that, but I don't believe it. I very much believe The Holy Spirit still manifests within Christ's Body today as in the days of Christ's Apostles, just maybe more in foreign nations outside the Christian west, as signs.

And there is an issue with those who claim one must show a manifestation of 'tongues' to prove receiving of The Holy Spirit. Let me address that:

In Acts 2, per the Bible manuscripts, The Holy Spirit manifested through Christ's Apostles on Pentecost with known languages of the world, not unrecognizable tongues which no one, or only a few could understand. Acts 2 per the Greek even reveals what those present at Pentecost heard were 'dialects' of known languages, the very dialects of their birth they heard the Apostles speak. That was the "cloven tongue" which in the Greek is 'parted languages' (diamerizo glossa).

If you'll recall in Genesis, all nations originally spoke one language prior to the tower of Babel event. Most likely, that's what the cloven tongue is. In Zeph.3:9 God said He will eventually return us to a pure speech or language, which I think is what the Apostles spoke on Pentecost. The main point is, that it's about clear communication, hearing even in the dialect of one's natural birth.

I've heard witness from some missionaries that preached to foreign peoples say the cloven tongue manifested to the people present in the same way as on Pentecost. I would not doubt that at all, because it would mean the people present heard in their own dialects of natural birth, and that means with understanding, the exact way the cloven tongue manifested through the Apostles on Pentecost per Acts 2.

Another issue, is that in 1 Cor.14, the word "unknown" in the KJV phrase "unknown tongue" was added by the translators. It's not in the Greek manuscripts. Apostle Paul was not speaking of an 'uknown tongue'; he was speaking of a 'tongue' (glossa), a known language of the world.


And yet another issue, a huge one:

The majority of those I personally know that claim to speak in unknown tongues also hold to a Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine, which doctrine began in 1830's Britain and cannot be supported within God's Holy Writ, nor in the writings of the early Church fathers. If 'unknown tongues' are a sign of The Holy Spirit working, then how is it so many claiming that are so deceived about the signs of the end of this world leading up to our Lord Jesus' return? And why do their teachers tell them they don't even need to watch our Lord's signs, but just be ready at any moment to be raptured out, before the great tribulation?

One of the signs of the end our Lord Jesus gave specifically involves a manifesting of The Holy Spirit through His servants that are to give a Testimony for Him DURING the great tribulation (Mark 13). How is it those who claim having The Holy Spirit through proof of tongues instead believe they won't go through the tribulationn?

The Edward Irving Church in 1830's Britain claimed all sorts of spiritual manifestations by The Holy Spirit from which John Darby believed whole-heartedly at first. But even Darby came to admit later how much of those manifestations turned out to be false. Margaret McDonald herself in her own letter, later admitted that the spirit prognostications she experienced "felt evil".

That reveals there also is a counterfeit movement with spiritual manifestations in these last days, a working by another spirit other than The Holy Spirit, and so all believers on Christ Jesus need to be especially careful. We shouldn't be surprised, for the false prophets and sorcerers in Moses' day in Egypt were able to copy some of God's miracles. In contrast, The Holy Spirit will never go against Holy Writ.

 

[John Zain]

Veteran,

Many thanks for the great post.
From Scripture, I was under the impression of the tongues confirmation.
Plus, I've never heard or seen anyone receiving without them.
I totally agree about the falsity of the pre-trib rapture.
Years ago, I read McDonald's testimony in the original pre-trib book.
26 years ago, my pastor in a Calvary Chapel church was dead serious
about being ready to go up tomorrow (he expected it soon).
Years ago, I attended a post-trib conference and was mightily impressed.
Believers going through tribulation is very biblical,
but "the great tribulation" is very special indeed, so ...

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

Many thanks for the great post.
From Scripture, I was under the impression of the tongues confirmation.
Plus, I've never heard or seen anyone receiving without them.
I totally agree about the falsity of the pre-trib rapture.
Years ago, I read McDonald's testimony in the original pre-trib book.
26 years ago, my pastor in a Calvary Chapel church was dead serious
about being ready to go up tomorrow (he expected it soon).
Years ago, I attended a post-trib conference and was mightily impressed.
Believers going through tribulation is very biblical,
but "the great tribulation" is very special indeed, so ...

That's good that you agree with the problem of a Pre-trib secret rapture, but I still cannot accept the idea that if one doesn't speak in 'tongues' then they have not received The Holy Spirit. That kind of requirement is not Biblical. In 1 Cor.12-14, Paul showed that manifesting of "divers kinds of tongues" is only ONE manifestation of The Holy Spirit. He makes no requirement that all believers must show manifestation of tongues to prove The Holy Spirit working through them. Instead, Paul shows just the opposite... that The Holy Spirit may manifest through any one of the mentioned operations:

1 Cor 12:6-12
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God Which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
(KJV)

And that's where you and I must disagree, for I agree with Apostle Paul that there are "diversities of operations" by The Holy Spirit, manifesting as one operation through one person while manifesting as another one of those operations with another person.


AND also, it still appears you may not agree with the Scripture definition of what "tongues" Paul is actually speaking of there, for it means known languages of the world, not the 'cloven tongue' of Pentecost. Paul is speaking of the God-given talent some have for learning and speaking many different languages fluently. Some scholars are blessed with the ability of becoming fluent in many languages. That's really what Apostle Paul is talking about in 1 Cor.12-14, known languages of the world, and not the cloven tongue of Pentecost.

The cloven tongue of Acts 2 is a different working of The Holy Spirit, for it manifests without the person having had to first learn the languges it manifests as.


Thus it would seem, that you are accepting a doctrine of men concerning proofs of The Holy Spirit manifesting through Christ's Body. I have experienced The Holy Spirit manifesting when covering a Bible topic in presence of others, and it had nothing to do with speaking in tongues (I have not spoken in the cloven tongue of Pentecost). It had to do with a manifesting of wisdom that I in no way could claim of myself, for The Holy Spirit was instructing even me during the manifesting, giving me what to say. I have experienced this kind of working manifesting through pastors and ministers when they were teaching God's Word. I've even experienced it with one who was deceived that one day showed they understood a matter in God's Word perfectly, and the next day it was like they had never ever heard it (a sign for me, to not push the "strong meat" to that person). I've gone to places I've never set foot in before, when out of the blue others I'd never met started asking me Bible questions they were struggling with, in which they later said they knew I had been sent to them.

There must be a balance in understanding this, between those who say The Holy Spirit doesn't work through God's people anymore, vs. those who say one must speak in tongues to prove existence of The Holy Spirit. That balance is what Aposlte Paul was teaching there in 1 Cor.12:6-12, that The Holy Spirit may manifest through any one of those operations he named, and not just with the idea of languages.

 

[Foreigner]

"I did open my eyes -- it is the same drivel all tongue-twisters and charismatics throw at Christians.

It is time for you to open your eyes -- your religion is not Bible based." -- Watchman


-- Sorry Watchman but my "religion" is simply Bible-based Christianity.
It seems that your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused by facts.
That is of course your choice. But you ignoring the truth doesn't make it any less the truth.
You are missing out on so much.

 

[John Zain]

I still cannot accept the idea that
if one doesn't speak in 'tongues' then they have not received The Holy Spirit. That kind of requirement is not Biblical.

I am not 100% positive about this point. But, realize that every time in Scripture that people receive
the baptism with the Holy Spirit ... it does not have to be mentioned that they spoke in tongues.
Perhaps you don't believe in the conclusions (the linkages) of my chart in post #1?
If A happens when B happens, and if C happens when B happens, then C happens when A happens.

 

[242006]

Greetings, Watchman-2 ...

Too bad you didn’t read my entire post before responding.

I did read it -- that's why I labeled it as nonsense!

Romans 11:29 ---- God never takes back gifts that are given,
i.e. He never changes His mind about giving them.

This has nothing to do with God giving these at birth to ALL people.

It is true that God never takes back the gifts given. The question is when and to whom does God give the gifts. As 11:29 states, the gifts are given without repentance, which means that the gifts are not solely given to Christians. Hence, there is no basis in scripture to claim that God breathes special gifts into anyone when they become a Christian. Hence, by default, it is the gifts we are born with.

As a second reference, see 1 Cor. 12:4 -- there are diversities of gifts. For the deeper student, it is the skills we had in the first earth age.

We hope you are humble enough to accept correction.

Of course I am -- however, you are the one in error here, and, you have yet to acknowledge your gross error.

When I was evangelising in Bulgaria in 1994, flying along dangerous

mountain roads with no guard rails, etc., God spoke to me and said
He had given me these gifts and abilities to do this work for Him.

You do lie!! You are supporting Satan's Doctrine, Rapture! If God actually spoke to you, you would not be in a false religion.

But, at birth, or before, or later?

Was I predestined (to do this) before the foundation of the world,
Or was I chosen and called during my lifetime?
This is the question we had back then.

Well, the answer is very simple! See 1 Pet. 5:8. The devil roams the earth looking for spirits to corrupt. He found you and you accepted the devil! You were not predestined to follow the devil. The entire purpose of this second age is to test people like you, who sat on the fence or followed Satan in the first age.

To determine whether you have received the Holy Spirit or are giving heed to seducing [Satanic] spirits [1 Tim. 4:1], all one has to do is see what God's Word has to say about the subject.

2Ti 3:16​

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

​

The true man of God uses the Word of God for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness. In other words, he/she rightly divides the Word of Truth [2 Tim. 2:15]. Conversely, a person [like you], who claims 'spiritual gifts', when no such concept exists in the Bible manuscripts, and then cannot rightly divide the word, or accept correction therefrom, cannot have the Holy Spirit within. It is blasphemy for you to claim that the Holy Spirit led you to Satan's Doctrine, the Rapture.

Without question, you are a LIAR!

Of course, the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in the 9 spiritual “gifts”.
Tongues, as an example, certainly is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
These things certainly have nothing to do with any abilities of the believer.

There is no such thing as manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the Bible manuscripts. See post #62 on this topic.

I believe it is obvious that BOTH the Holy Spirit and the believers must be willing.

I already proved you wrong in the prior post. It is your right to be wrong, if you so choose.

"I did open my eyes -- it is the same drivel all tongue-twisters and charismatics throw at Christians.

It is time for you to open your eyes -- your religion is not Bible based." -- Watchman


-- Sorry Watchman but my "religion" is simply Bible-based Christianity.
It seems that your mind is made up and you don't want to be confused by facts.
That is of course your choice. But you ignoring the truth doesn't make it any less the truth.
You are missing out on so much.

Obviously, you are doing the ostrich and sticking your head in the sand so that you do not hear or see any truth regarding your unbiblical religion. There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts', 'manifestations of the Holy Spirit', and 'unknown tongues' in the Bible manuscripts. Those are facts which render your religion false.

If you want to believe in fallacies, it is certainly your right to do so. However, please do not denigrate Christ by claiming your damned religion is 'Christian'.

 

[Foreigner]

If you want to believe in fallacies, it is certainly your right to do so. However, please do not denigrate Christ by claiming your damned religion is 'Christian' - Watchman


-- Right back at you, big guy.
There is none so blind as to those that will not see. Sounds like your membership card to that group is number is 0001.
I actually feel sorry for you Watchman.

 

[242006]

If you want to believe in fallacies, it is certainly your right to do so. However, please do not denigrate Christ by claiming your damned religion is 'Christian' - Watchman


-- Right back at you, big guy.
There is none so blind as to those that will not see. Sounds like your membership card to that group is number is 0001.
I actually feel sorry for you Watchman.

Just show me where in the Bible manuscripts that there are 'spritual gifts', 'manifestations of [by] the Holy Spirit', and 'unknown tongues'. Until you can [and you cannot], the proof is on my side.

I agree with your general assessment of blindness -- unfortunately, it is you that is blind.

Enjoy your trip!

 

[John Zain]

Just show me where in the Bible manuscripts that there are 'spritual gifts',
'manifestations of [by] the Holy Spirit', and 'unknown tongues'.

1 Cor.12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to ...

 

[242006]

1 Cor.12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to ...

See post #62 in this topic. The word 'of' does not exist in the Bible manuscripts in this scripture. It was inappropriately added by the translators in the English rendering. The manifestation spoken of in this scripture IS the Holy Spirit. There are no manifestations dished out by the Holy Spirit -- no 'spiritual gifts'.

Your religion is a farce!

 

[Foreigner]

Just show me where in the Bible manuscripts that there are 'spritual gifts', 'manifestations of [by] the Holy Spirit', and 'unknown tongues'. Until you can [and you cannot], the proof is on my side.

I agree with your general assessment of blindness -- unfortunately, it is you that is blind.

Enjoy your trip!

-- Said the blind man lol.
They have been shown and reshown. You have also spoken with people here, myself included, who have experienced them in praise and worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wise up.

 

[242006]

-- Said the blind man lol.
They have been shown and reshown. You have also spoken with people here, myself included, who have experienced them in praise and worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wise up.

Yeah -- I have already addressed your experience. All of you tongue twisters give heed to seducing [Satanic] spirits [1 Tim. 4:1]. Your religion is only pseudo-christian in that you think that you worship Christ; however, you have accepted Satan's Doctrine, the Rapture.

Enjoy your trip!

 

[Anastacia]

The speaking in tongues done today is not biblical. It is a false doctrine. The biblical speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews, and the sign was given.

We can see from the scriptures that speaking in tongues was prophesied about in the Old Testament, that the Lord would speak to the Jews, as stated in Isaiah 28:11-12. And this prophecy was being fulfilled in the New Testament, as confirmed by Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21. Since the biblical speaking in tongues were for a sign, and the sign was given for the purpose as prophesied in the Old Testament, it would make sense to believe that speaking in tongues is a gift that would stop.

This scripture explains to us that tongues will be stopped.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.


In Acts 2:5 we see that there were JEWS from EVERY NATION. The Jews are the people God said that He would speak to through men of strange tongues.....

Acts 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

And in Acts 2:6 we see that the Jews from every nation spoke in many different languages....

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

Acts 2:8-Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

(Notice that the word for 'foreign languages' clearly is called 'tongues' in Acts 2:11.)



God in His infinite wisdom, knew that the Gentiles speaking in tongues would be a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles are also included in salvation. Can you imagine how necessary it was for the Jews to have the sign that salvation is for the Gentiles too? See scriptures Acts 10:44 to Acts 11:18 how the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles, as was evident by the Gentiles speaking in tongues and praising God.

So you can see that the speaking in tongues of the Gentiles showed the Jews that God granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.

The New Testament is of very special times, to say the least. Salvation is given to us by God through Jesus Christ, that God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spririt distributed according to his will (Hebrew 2:1-4). The gift of tongues is a gift given during the laying of the foundation of the church. The foundation has been laid (Eph 2:19-22). And speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews, a sign fulfilled. Yet many Christians believe their glossolalia is the tongues speaking as in the bible.

When people spoke in tongues, they spoke mysteries (1 Corinthians 14:2). The mysteries of the gospel has been given (Ephesians 6:19).

People who claim to speak in tongues nowadays also claim that they are speaking the language of angels.

The Bible says that angels are ministering spirits to those who will inherit salvation. The people of the earth are those who will inherit salvation. So, the angels need to know all the languages of the people on earth!

Hebrews 1:14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

So even if the biblical speaking in tongues did not sound like any earthly language, (as many nowadays tongue speakers claim it is not an earthly language), speaking in tongues was still heard and understood as different earthly foreign languages....by the foreigners themselves (see Acts 2:6 and 2:11).

Acts 2:6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Acts 2:11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

Again, the language angels need to minister to us is with our earthly languages. So, like the foreigners who understood those speaking in tongues, in their native language, we too would need to understand in our language what the angels were saying to us

God's Truth keeps us close to Him. Not UNsupernatural speaking in tongues performed by many today.

 

[Foreigner]

Yeah -- I have already addressed your experience. All of you tongue twisters give heed to seducing [Satanic] spirits [1 Tim. 4:1]. Your religion is only pseudo-christian in that you think that you worship Christ; however, you have accepted Satan's Doctrine, the Rapture.

Enjoy your trip!

-- Ah yes, apparently "Judge not let ye be judged" doesn't apply to you.
To call everything you do not agree with "Satanic" shows you limited scope of reasoning.
Plus, you have never heard me say I that I believe in the Rapture. I have said that those who criticize those that believe in it need to be more respectful. But you apparently just want to yell "Satan!"at everything you don't embrace. Stay classy.
Watching people speak in tongues during Christiain worship services that have also involved incredible healings, (eventually fulfilled) prophecies and the movement of the Holy Spirit hardly supports someone saying speaking in tongues 'twisted' or 'Satanic.'





Anastacia,

As far as you quoting Corinthians:
"1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Do you really not understand what that is referring to?

It is referring to what will happen to your gifts IF/WHEN you lose love. If you were to read more than just one verse of the chapter it would be obvious.

Perhaps you should look at the first verse of that chapter:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." - 1 Cor. 13:1

You will notice I hope that that is an if / then statement for a current or potentially future event.

It also points out that those gifts only become "a resounding gong or clanging symbol" IF love is lost.

If love is present then those gifts still have purpose and value.

 

[John Zain]

1 Corinthians 13:8
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge,
it will pass away."
This is referring to what will happen to your gifts IF/WHEN you lose love.

Perhaps you should look at the first verse of that chapter:
"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love,
I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." - 1 Cor. 13:1
You will notice I hope that that this is an if / then statement for a current or potentially future event.
It also points out that those gifts only become "a resounding gong or clanging symbol" IF love is lost.
If love is present, then those gifts still have purpose and value.

Watchman_2,
Are you understanding any of this?
Or is it just a waste of good forum space?

 

[Anastacia]

Anastacia,

As far as you quoting Corinthians:
"1 Corinthians 13:8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."

Do you really not understand what that is referring to?

It is referring to what will happen to your gifts IF/WHEN you lose love. If you were to read more than just one verse of the chapter it would be obvious.

Perhaps you should look at the first verse of that chapter:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." - 1 Cor. 13:1

You will notice I hope that that is an if / then statement for a current or potentially future event.

It also points out that those gifts only become "a resounding gong or clanging symbol" IF love is lost.

If love is present then those gifts still have purpose and value.

Yes, Foreigner, I really understand what 1 Corinthians 13:8 means. I'm sorry that you believe I only looked at the first verse of that chapter, you are wrong about that. 1 Corinthians 13:8 is about what it says, and that is: that tongues will be "stilled" and prophecies will "cease" and knowledge will "pass away." There are often just one scripture, that if people would only believe and obey, then false doctrines would not even get started. God's powerful word in 1 Corinthians 13:8 nullifies at least two false doctrines, the false speaking in tongues and prophecies.

 

[Foreigner]

Yes, Foreigner, I really understand what 1 Corinthians 13:8 means. I'm sorry that you believe I only looked at the first verse of that chapter, you are wrong about that. 1 Corinthians 13:8 is about what it says, and that is: that tongues will be "stilled" and prophecies will "cease" and knowledge will "pass away." There are often just one scripture, that if people would only believe and obey, then false doctrines would not even get started. God's powerful word in 1 Corinthians 13:8 nullifies at least two false doctrines, the false speaking in tongues and prophecies.

-- I am sorry Anastacia, but you are taking it entirely out of context. It states flat out that those things will happen IF you do not have love in your heart. It really is that simple. Please quit compromising the scripture in order to fulfill your incorrect point.




"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." - 1 Cor. 13:1

-- Read it yourself. It says that if you do these things but do not have love, THEN AND ONLY THEN are they "a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." If you have love in your heart then when you do these things they are NOT that way.



"If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." - 1 Cor. 13:2

-- This states that having these things are worthless ONLY if you do not have love. That implies they exist, are of value and will discontinue if you do not have love.



"If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing." - 1 Cor. 13:3

-- The very next verse and again listing things of value that will mean little to God if you do not have love. The scripture puts this on the same footing as the previous two verses.



"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away." -- 1 Cor. 13: 4-8

-- All the continuation of the same idea. It is warning that if we lose love THEN those gifts will be lost. For you to be correct Paul had to have thrown in a random, unrelated statement instead of staying with the theme. Not likely.



And while we are in Corinthians...

"Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit." - 1 Cor 14:1-2

-- Paul encourages people to seek the very gift that you state is going away. Where exactly did he mention a time stamp where they should stop?

Also, you notice he mentions "for anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God." Tell me again Watchman how exactly this is speaking to God via tongues..."of Satan."

 

[Anastacia]

Foreigner, 1 Corinthians 13:8 says that love never fails. Period. Then it says "But" "where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."
How you can believe it to mean what you say is proof that you love your religion, and it is hard for you to give up your religion for the Truth. Hopefully you will have a change about that one day.

You also ask "where exactly did he mention a time stamp where they should stop?" The New Testament is of very special times, to say the least. Salvation is given to us by God through Jesus Christ, that God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spririt distributed according to his will (Hebrew 2:1-4). The gift of tongues is a gift given during the laying of the foundation of the church.

The foundation has been laid (Eph 2:19). Since the foundation has been laid, and since speaking in tongues were for a sign to the Jews, and the sign has been fulfilled, you could come to see that it is not the gibberish practiced by many today.