The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Your answers in RED
· The angel is symbolic of Christ. >Okay, you added this to the list, good. No Catholic or Prostestant would identify this angel as Jesus. Angel is not symbolic for Jesus. Jesus is not an angel. He created angels. This view puts you in the category of a Non-Trinitarian. So you have more problems then just being an Amillennialist. No symbolism here! error
· The key is symbolic of authority. > The angel was given authority and a key. No symbolism. error
· The chain is symbolic of restrainment. >A chain restrains. You are just describing what it literally does – no symbolism. 1/2 pt.
· The dragon / serpent is symbolic of the Devil. > Okay, he has many names but I am not so sure those names aren’t his actual literal appearance. 1/2 pt.
· The binding is symbolic the condition of restraint > binding is a literal restraint – its real, not symbolism. 1/2 pt.
· The abyss is symbolic of that place of restraint. > The Abyss is the name of the a place, The Bottomless Pit, or Tarturus … it’s real, not symbolic! 1/2 pt
· The 1,000 years is symbolic of ‘a long period of time’. > I believe it is literal. It is a long period of time and a precise amount of time. 1/2 pt
· Gog and Magog is a symbol of the wicked. > Nope, a Satanic Prince (who is wicked) and has been in charge of a region for a long time. Magog is a region north and east of Jerusalem. 1/2 pt
· The camp of the saints is symbolic of the Church. > camp is a place, not symbolic for something else. Wherever the saints are, since the body of believers is the Church, there is no symbolism. 1/2 pt
You left out your symbolic meanings for the following:
* Blessed and holy
* first resurrection
* priests
* reign with Him
* prison
* nations
* war
* the beloved city
* fire came down from heaven
* lake of fire and brimstone
*the beast
* false prophet
* tormented day and night
forever
* great white throne
*Him
* the book of life
* dead judged
* the sea
*Death
* Hades
* the lake of fire
* the second death
You couldn’t come up with any symbolism for the above words and phrases so you inadvertently left them out. Why?Because you know we are supposed to take these literally. If you were taking an exam in a Seminary and you left out 20 questions on a 31 question test, you would automatically flunk the test. The way I see it is you scored 3.5 out of 31. You couldn't even answer the ones you chose correctly! I’m not even sure you understand what symbolism means?
Conclusion: Your claim that Revelation 20 is all symbolism is not true and you cannot show us that it is. You've consistently held up your sign, paraded around with it, but it is just a house of cards. Typical MO.
Your test grade is F But thanks for the effort, you need to go back to a different school.
Who writes your script for you?
Genesis 16:11-13: “the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Genesis 18:1-3: “And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said,My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
In Genesis 22:15 we see the Lord speaking from heaven. He is there described as an angel. We learn, “And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Genesis 32:24-32: “And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me … And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
Hosea 12:2-4 explains: “The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us.”
Exodus 3:2-6: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Judges 2:1: “And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Judges 6:12-15: “And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee? And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father's house. And the LORD said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Judges 13:21 says, "the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Isaiah 63:7-9 declares: “I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD,according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour. In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Revelation 10:1 affirms: “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud.”
Is this a literal angel or is this the Lord?
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well they didn't. Amillenialism was not even a concpet born yet.
John did not even teach millenialism with his writing of the 1,000 years of people reigning with Jesus!
Amillenialism and premillenialism are much later coined terms to define what people think the bible taught.
But as to the Apostles believing was going to establish a kingdom on earth:
Acts 1
King James Version
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
See!!!! The Apostles knew the promise of Messiah reigning on an earthly kingdom with Israel as the major focus. Jesus did not rebuke them, correct them, tell them they are wrong.
What jesus said, I don't know when, only th eFather knows when the Kingdom will be restored to Israel. Thien He said, but instead of being concrned with that- You are going to get power and evangelize everywhere!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I see you are still nothing but a crude petulant ranting child. but bring your infallible defenders. I will just hold to Scripture. I see you are still suffering from multiple personalit disorder as well.
Well feel free to have all of your personalities bring your warriors!
The two verses that go before Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) support the idea of a spiritual kingdom. The two verses that follow Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) show the Lord giving a spiritual response to their question.
In your opinion, but not in Scripture. You're manipulating Scripture to support your error. That is what all the cults do.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
No that is you stretching a simple statement to make it say more than needed. It was a simple statement by Jesus to wait in Jerusalem until they were filled with the Spirit.
But if it implies a spiritual kingdom beginning as demanded, then where are the should raised who were beheaded for not wearing the mark of worshipping the image of the beast!
all it means that the task at hand requires the strength of god in us working throuh us- no mention or implication foa kingdom beginning.
You are so blinkered by your hyper-literal Pharisaical hope that you force your whole physical hyper-literal scheme of thought into that statement, something that is totally unknown to New Testament teaching. In fact, you have nothing in the New Testament. There is nothing about Israel been elevated to her previous athlete position. There is nothing about the rebuilding of her theocracy. There is nothing about her taking back her ancient borders. That all stopped with the termination of the old covenant. The new covenant is a new arrangement that relates to all nations equally. It is time for you to move from the old to the new covenant.
Your Pharisaical hope is misplaced. You should learn from their mistake and learn from history. There is nothing new under the sun! They missed the boat with their faulty hope. In Luke 17:20-21 Christ was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”
Christ replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
The kingdom of God, which Christ continually spoke of, related not to a physical Jewish kingdom that could be viewed with human sight. The kingdom of God relates to the unseen realm where the people are governed by their mediator King. Christ rules this kingdom, not by force, but love. Those that subject to His authority are administered by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Premil denies Christ His current kingship over His spiritual domain with its constant future focus upon the kinship of Christ. Whilst there is a future aspect to Christ’s kingship, there is also the current reality.
Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, not temporal, earthly material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”
The kingdom is marked by:
· righteousness
· peace
· joy
The kingdom of God is not primarily directed toward the physical needs of man but rather his spiritual needs.
It was also not of this world – it was a heavenly kingdom. John 18:36, saying, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.”
The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.
Did Jesus disqualify these brethren from salvation?...
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The election were the beloved remnant saved by grace. (Romans 11:5)
Those not of the election were enemies of the gospel.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
No one.
When we see passages that say "angel of the LORD, it is called a Christophany, an appearance of God in the form of a man or angel. The pre-incarnate Christ appeared many times in the Old Testament. How do we known it is not just an angel? Well for instance in Gen. 16:13, Hagar says, "You are the God who sees me." It was God appearing in physical form. GOD told her He would increase her descendants - angels can't do that. He also comforts her. Other passages you quoted are more examples: Gen. 18:1-3;
Gen. 32:24; Ex. 3:5 (receiving worship), Ex. 23:21 ( forgiving sin); Judges 6:11-14, 13:22.
Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego survived a firey furnace with who do you think? Outside they saw a fourth man with them. They did not know what they saw. It was God in the form of a man. Angels come in the form of a man as well. Man could only conceive that it was an angel, He looked like one, but again, angels are not worshipped, they cannot create an increase of one's descendants, they cannot forgive sins.
Remember the Prince and the Pauper? Folks did not know they were in the presence of a Prince, because he came down below their level. Jacob was wrestling with someone who he thought was a man or an angel but it was the LORD, Whom he received a blessing from.
The election were the beloved enemies of the church...
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes...
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes...but as touching the election, they are beloved
Never and nowhere in Scripture are enemies of the gospel identified as the elect(ion).
The elect(ion) are solely and exclusively believers in Christ, His Church.
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