The Biblical Basis for Catholic Distinctives

[Christian Believer]

There are other hungers- for love, for immortality for life, for affection, for being cared, for forgiveness, for mercy. This hunger can be satiated only by the bread that comes from above. Jesus himself is the living bread that gives life to the world (cf. Jn 6:51). His body offered for our sake on the cross, his blood shed for the pardon of the sins of humanity is made available to us in the bread and wine to the Eucharist transformed in the consecration.

But the Eucharist does not end with the partaking of the bread and blood of the Lord. It leads us to solidarity with others. The communion with the Lord is necessarily a communion with our fellow brothers and sisters. And therefore the one who is fed and nourished by the very body and blood of Christ cannot remain unaffected when he sees his brothers suffering want and hunger. (Homily for the Feast of Corpus Christi, 5-30-13)

Therefore the Eucharistic Celebration is much more than simple banquet....


@Illuminator
I do agree with you 100% about the "bread". But the Catholic church again took this into many unintended directions.
God's one and only focus is the redemption plan, and how to execute it in the new covenant, to reconcile humans to Him. If people understand God's intentions, and properly follow Jesus' teaching, there would not be any famines, suffering, wars etc.. Because God's blessings would be poured out on them, just as He told us in the Sermon on the Mount - seek God 1st, then all these things will be added.

Jesus always meant the "bread" to be His body. And the Lord's Prayer IS a DIY form of receiving the body of Jesus without the church's Eucharist. There is nothing wrong with the Eucharist; it is indeed sacred, as a weekly symbolic celebration of the last supper. But we can receive the body of Jesus spiritually by reciting the Lord's Prayer in our hearts. And we receive it "daily", just as Jesus instructed in the prayer itself. And all churches should teach this point. This is as in the vine and branches parable - "we remain in Him, and He remains in us".

You'll like my parallel description of the Christianity and Judaism in my post here.

About Protestant churches, I am full of sorrow they don't see the "bread" as the body of Jesus. I used to like some protestant churches after I left the Catholic church years ago. But then when I found this fact about them, I realized all churches have crucial faults in them. And that the only way is to become simply, Christian. As in by the Bible only, uninfluenced by churches agendas.
Protestants would tell you, "Jesus gave this prayer to the Jews" or that "He could not have possibly meant the bread as His body, because He was not dead yet" or because "Paul did not preach it, and Paul was the apostle of the gentiles...". So sad, because Jesus spent a long time in the 2nd half of John chapter 6 explaining about this. Jesus before His death, sitting under a tree and telling the Jews that He was the bread, and to eat His body and drink His blood. But the Protestants continue to insist that's a Catholic thing; it does not concern them.

 

[Christian Believer]

Sorry post went in wrong; must be something I did. Here it is again.

@Illuminator
I do agree with you 100% about the "bread". But the Catholic church again took this into many unintended directions.
God's one and only focus is the redemption plan, and how to execute it in the new covenant, to reconcile humans to Him. If people understand God's intentions, and properly follow Jesus' teaching, there would not be any famines, suffering, wars etc.. Because God's blessings would be poured out on them, just as He told us in the Sermon on the Mount - seek God 1st, then all these things will be added.

Jesus always meant the "bread" to be His body. And the Lord's Prayer IS a DIY form of receiving the body of Jesus without the church's Eucharist. There is nothing wrong with the Eucharist; it is indeed sacred, as a weekly symbolic celebration of the last supper. But we can receive the body of Jesus spiritually by reciting the Lord's Prayer in our hearts. And we receive it "daily", just as Jesus instructed in the prayer itself. And all churches should teach this point. This is as in the vine and branches parable - "we remain in Him, and He remains in us".

You'll like my parallel description of the Christianity and Judaism in my post here.

About Protestant churches, I am full of sorrow they don't see the "bread" as the body of Jesus. I used to like some protestant churches after I left the Catholic church years ago. But then when I found this fact about them, I realized all churches have crucial faults in them. And that the only way is to become simply, Christian. As in by the Bible only, uninfluenced by churches agendas.
Protestants would tell you, "Jesus gave this prayer to the Jews" or that "He could not have possibly meant the bread as His body, because He was not dead yet" or because "Paul did not preach it, and Paul was the apostle of the gentiles...". So sad, because Jesus spent a long time in the 2nd half of John chapter 6 explaining about this. Jesus before His death, sitting under a tree and telling the Jews that He was the bread, and to eat His body and drink His blood. But the Protestants continue to insist that's a Catholic thing; it does not concern them.

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife
Thank you. So if it means Eucharist, then we can equally receive the body of Jesus either by reciting this prayer in our hearts, or by eating the actual bread during communion in the church? It would be the same?

Not sure how that's possible.
Eating His flesh is eating His flesh - not simply praying about it.

In the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6 - Jesus says:
John 6:53-58
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

Interestingly, the Greek word John uses here is NOT the norman word used for human eating (Phagon). He uses the word for the way an animal rips aprt his food and gnaws on it (Trogon). This is to show that "eating" is NOT merely symbolic here - but actual consumption.

This is wjhy the people were so shocked and MANY of them left and returned to their former way of life (v. 66). In fact - this marks the ONLY time in the Gospels that Jesus's followers left Him for doctrinal reasons.
Hr meant what He said.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks be to The LORD JESUS CHRIST, my SAVIOUR For Ever & EVER!
I would rather be history IGNORANT, Than To Be BIBLE ignorant!
Amen?

GRACE And Peace...

It's important not to be ignorant of EITHER.
Remember - those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

[Christian Believer]

"Not sure how that's possible.
Eating His flesh is eating His flesh - not simply praying about it."

@BreadOfLife
But in an earlier post you said the "bread" in the prayer, "could mean His Body".

The "bread" in the prayer, meaning His body fits perfectly. Because this sentence then becomes so clear:
"Give us this day our daily Bread and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
The forgiveness of sins is the result of receiving the Bread. It is the body of Jesus, the bread of life that God gives. He always meant it as spiritual bread, which can also be represented by actual bread for symbolic praying.

 

[Mink57]

I don't need a copy.

So be it.

You need a copy to prove or disprove that it claims of the pope that "thou art another God on earth".

If you say so...

Why is your priest afraid to provide you with a copy?

What in the...?! When did I ever say that? When did I ever allude to that?
1. I was posting to you at 12:30 a.m. this morning. My priest was probably fast asleep.
2. Today is Sunday. My priest will be conducting Masses throughout the day.
3. The administrative office doesn't even open until 10 a.m. tomorrow.
4. Even if I do get to see my priest tomorrow, I'm not even sure if he has a copy himself, or if the church has a copy. Heck, I don't even know if the Diocese has a library. If they do have a library, I don't know if the library would have a copy. If it does have a copy, I don't even know if the copy is available for the public. If it is available to the public, I'm not sure if it's a copy of the original which would be in Latin...which I do not speak, read or write.

Could it be because it confirms the aforementioned claim?

A baseless assumption.

 

[BreadOfLife]

"Not sure how that's possible.
Eating His flesh is eating His flesh - not simply praying about it."
@BreadOfLife
But in an earlier post you said the "bread" in the prayer, "could mean His Body".

The "bread" in the prayer, meaning His body fits perfectly. Because this sentence then becomes so clear:
"Give us this day our daily Bread and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”
The forgiveness of sins is the result of receiving the Bread. It is the body of Jesus, the bread of life that God gives. He always meant it as spiritual bread, which can also be represented by actual bread for symbolic praying.

I see where you're confused.

I NEVER saud that reciting the prayer was the same as EATING His flesh.
I said that the phrase "give us this day our daily bread" could include the idea of the Eucharist.

As to your statement that Jesus wasa talking about "spiritual" bread in John 6 and NOT His flesh is wrong.
I think you need to explain several thing for that to be true - namely:
- The language changes I pointed oit (Phagon/Trogon)
- The Passover Lamb was eaten - Jesus, our Paschal Lamb is also eaten
- His followers leaving (v. 66) - with ZERO explanation from Jesus as He always did when there was a misunderstanding.
- He doesn't even explain to His Apostles - which He ALWAYS did in cases like this.
In fact - He doubles down by asking them, "Do you ALSO want to leave?" (v. 67)
- At the Last Supper - He says, "This IS my Body and "This IS my blood" - not "symbols"

 

[Brakelite]

That's complete nonsesne and YOU know it.
I can spew the SAME manure aboiuyt you SDAs worshiping Ellen G. White - and it would be as equally-stupid as your claom.

We don't have EGW seated on a Great White Throne (unintentional pun) between two cherubim and surrounded by 4 living creatures.

 

[Brakelite]

That's complete nonsesne and YOU know it.
I can spew the SAME manure aboiuyt you SDAs worshiping Ellen G. White - and it would be as equally-stupid as your claom.

If a man assumes the authority to overturn God's Commandments, then he is claiming a higher authority than God.

 

[Christian Believer]

I see where you're confused.

I NEVER saud that reciting the prayer was the same as EATING His flesh.
I said that the phrase "give us this day our daily bread" could include the idea of the Eucharist.

As to your statement that Jesus wasa talking about "spiritual" bread in John 6 and NOT His flesh is wrong.
I think you need to explain several thing for that to be true - namely:
- The language changes I pointed oit (Phagon/Trogon)
- The Passover Lamb was eaten - Jesus, our Paschal Lamb is also eaten
- His followers leaving (v. 66) - with ZERO explanation from Jesus as He always did when there was a misunderstanding.
- He doesn't even explain to His Apostles - which He ALWAYS did in cases like this.
In fact - He doubles down by asking them, "Do you ALSO want to leave?" (v. 67)
- At the Last Supper - He says, "This IS my Body and "This IS my blood" - not "symbols"

@BreadOfLife
These are good points, but not enough for us to just run with it as you're saying. Because if we're wrong, we're missing a very crucial truth. If the "bread" in the prayer is indeed His body, it would be a truth that is just as center-stage as the crucifixion of Jesus itself! And it would rattle the very foundations of all churches, not only Catholic, but all Protestants too.

And I think you have a good idea about me now. I'm not in it to win an argument, no agenda, no earthly loyalties to any church; I'm a true God seeker, only loyal to God. All I'm asking is open our minds and our hearts, and consider this, just in case it is what Jesus meant:

So Jesus, God Himself in the flesh, comes to earth in person, for the sole purpose of accomplishing God's redemption plan, a one-time event, the grandest event in the history of mankind, and he gives us instructions to pray for our daily bread? As in mere earthly necessities? As if we didn't know how to do that, and He showed us how to? People were already praying for food. God, who is very focused on His redemption plan, meant it differently.

He Himself kept repeatedly drilling us on the following:

• Don't worry about earthly things, seek God 1st, then earthly things come. (Sermon on the Mount).
• "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you." John 6:26-27.
  
• "This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:58
• "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. Luke 11:13. Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer, in Luke 11:2-4. Which means the prayer leads to receiving the Holy Spirit.

• And Paul said:
  • 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. Without instructing the early church to do a Eucharist.
  • 2 Corinthians 4:16: …our inner person is being renewed day by day. "day by day" as in the Lord's Prayer "daily Bread"

I really think there is enough there to make us look again closely at the scripture.
I actually have a good related post here: Christianity & Judaism - A Parallel

 

[BreadOfLife]

We don't have EGW seated on a Great White Throne (unintentional pun) between two cherubim and surrounded by 4 living creatures.

We son't "have" the Pope seated anywhere.
He sits where he wants.

Why - iis that supposed to mean something?

[/QUOTE]

 

[BreadOfLife]

If a man assumes the authority to overturn God's Commandments, then he is claiming a higher authority than God.

I don't know of any man who assumea that authority.
Do YOU?

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife
These are good points, but not enough for us to just run with it as you're saying. Because if we're wrong, we're missing a very crucial truth. If the "bread" in the prayer is indeed His body, it would be a truth that is just as center-stage as the crucifixion of Jesus itself! And it would rattle the very foundations of all churches, not only Catholic, but all Protestants too.

And I think you have a good idea about me now. I'm not in it to win an argument, no agenda, no earthly loyalties to any church; I'm a true God seeker, only loyal to God. All I'm asking is open our minds and our hearts, and consider this, just in case it is what Jesus meant:

So Jesus, God Himself in the flesh, comes to earth in person, for the sole purpose of accomplishing God's redemption plan, a one-time event, the grandest event in the history of mankind, and he gives us instructions to pray for our daily bread? As in mere earthly necessities? As if we didn't know how to do that, and He showed us how to? People were already praying for food. God, who is very focused on His redemption plan, meant it differently.

He Himself kept repeatedly drilling us on the following:

• Don't worry about earthly things, seek God 1st, then earthly things come. (Sermon on the Mount).
• "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you." John 6:26-27.
  
• "This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:58
• "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. Luke 11:13. Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer, in Luke 11:2-4. Which means the prayer leads to receiving the Holy Spirit.

• And Paul said:
  • 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. Without instructing the early church to do a Eucharist.
  • 2 Corinthians 4:16: …our inner person is being renewed day by day. "day by day" as in the Lord's Prayer "daily Bread"

I really think there is enough there to make us look again closely at the scripture.
I actually have a good related post here: Christianity & Judaism - A Parallel

Whooooaaa there.
You're putting words in my moiuth. If you want to have a serious and charitable conversation - then please listen to what I said.

I never said that the "Bread" in the Lord's Prayer was the "indeed" the Eucharist. I said that, along with our daily needs - it CAN be considered as well.

As to you second comment above in RED - Jesus was teaching the crowd HOW to pray to the FATHER.
They were used to praying to their GOD - but He was not a "Father" to them. Their Father-figues were all human (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.). In the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus was teaching them how much theit FATHER in Heaven loves them. and that they could go to Him AS thgeir Father.

 

[Christian Believer]

Whooooaaa there.
You're putting words in my moiuth. If you want to have a serious and charitable conversation - then please listen to what I said.

I never said that the "Bread" in the Lord's Prayer was the "indeed" the Eucharist. I said that, along with our daily needs - it CAN be considered as well.

As to you second comment above in RED - Jesus was teaching the crowd HOW to pray to the FATHER.
They were used to praying to their GOD - but He was not a "Father" to them. Their Father-figues were all human (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc.). In the Sermon on the Mount - Jesus was teaching them how much theit FATHER in Heaven loves them. and that they could go to Him AS thgeir Father.

@BreadOfLife
Sorry that's not what I meant. The sentence I wrote was misleading. I did not mean you said that! I'll try that post again here; I don't want it butchered because I'm making good points:

@BreadOfLife, you make good points, but not enough for us to just run with it as you're saying. Because if we're wrong, we're missing a very crucial truth.

If my interpretation that the "bread" in the prayer is indeed His body, it would be a truth that is just as center-stage as the crucifixion of Jesus itself! And it would rattle the very foundations of all churches, not only Catholic, but all Protestants too.

And I think you have a good idea about me now. I'm not in it to win an argument, no agenda, no earthly loyalties to any church; I'm a true God seeker, only loyal to God. All I'm asking is open our minds and our hearts, and consider this, just in case it is what Jesus meant:

So Jesus, God Himself in the flesh, comes to earth in person, for the sole purpose of accomplishing God's redemption plan, a one-time event, the grandest event in the history of mankind, and he gives us instructions to pray for our daily bread? As in mere earthly necessities? As if we didn't know how to do that, and He showed us how to? People were already praying for food. God, who is very focused on His redemption plan, meant it differently.

He Himself kept repeatedly drilling us on the following:

• Don't worry about earthly things, seek God 1st, then earthly things come. (Sermon on the Mount).
• "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you." John 6:26-27.
  
• "This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever." John 6:58
• "If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him. Luke 11:13. Jesus said this right after he taught them His prayer, in Luke 11:2-4. Which means the prayer leads to receiving the Holy Spirit.

• And Paul said:
  • 1 Corinthians‬ ‭10:16-17: …there is one loaf… we all share the one loaf. Without instructing the early church to do a Eucharist.
  • 2 Corinthians 4:16: …our inner person is being renewed day by day. "day by day" as in the Lord's Prayer "daily Bread"

I really think there is enough there to make us look again closely at the scripture.
I actually have a good related post here: Christianity & Judaism - A Parallel

 

[Taken]

Mink57 ~

Thank you.

 

[Taken]

BOL -

Per usual

 

[Brakelite]

We son't "have" the Pope seated anywhere.
He sits where he wants.

Why - iis that supposed to mean something?

[/QUOTE]


I'm sorry, I thought you would have been following this thread more closely, so you must have missed this...

I don't know of any man who assumes that authority.
Do YOU?

Not personally, no. But historically, I am well aware of the role played by the church in changing the Sabbath to Sunday. Surely you, being the educated defender of everything Catholic, must be aware of the sole reason the Council of Trent, under the auspices of the Jesuits, managed to boast in the end of its success in establishing that tradition may be exalted above scripture if the church proclaims such is so? As in the change to the 4th commandment? Were not the doctrines and dogmas promulgated at the council of Trent declared infallible, and the defense of tradition put forth by the Archbishop of Reggio seen as proof of the primacy of tradition?

 

[Illuminator]

@BreadOfLife
Sorry that's not what I meant. The sentence I wrote was misleading. I did not mean you said that! I'll try that post again here; I don't want it butchered because I'm making good points:

@BreadOfLife, you make good points, but not enough for us to just run with it as you're saying. Because if we're wrong, we're missing a very crucial truth.

If my interpretation that the "bread" in the prayer is indeed His body, it would be a truth that is just as center-stage as the crucifixion of Jesus itself! And it would rattle the very foundations of all churches, not only Catholic, but all Protestants too.

We see the Eucharistic Sacrifice in the upper room as one and the same as the Sacrifice on the Cross. So I am not rattled in the least. You don't have to build an either/or argument. It can be both/and. Both spiritual food and physical food. But I am not convinced that Jesus was concerned with just our stomachs when He taught The Lord's Prayer, I think you would agree with me.

 

[Christian Believer]

We see the Eucharistic Sacrifice in the upper room as one and the same as the Sacrifice on the Cross. So I am not rattled in the least. You don't have to build an either/or argument. It can be both/and. Both spiritual food and physical food. But I am not convinced that Jesus was concerned with just our stomachs when He taught The Lord's Prayer, I think you would agree with me.

@BreadOfLife
Yes I fully agree. The bread in the Lord's Prayer and the bread in the Eucharist is the same. It's not either/or. This is very consistent with Jesus' teaching.
My whole point is, that churches don't clarify this. And I think it is crucial enough that they should, and should stress the importance of it. People are either not praying the Lord's Prayer, or if they are, they are not meaning it correctly. Jesus used these exact words: "this is how you should pray..." And in the prayer it says to pray it daily, to receive Jesus' body for the forgiveness of sins. No church is teaching this today.

Here's a comparison of God's 2 covenants. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant when He died on the cross.

The key takeaway from this table is:
The Jews had a long list of strict commandments, and detailed and sometimes difficult requirements, to execute twice a day, and all for what? Forgiveness of their sins! All this work, daily, for the forgiveness of sins!! And today, Christians don't want to simply pray the Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of their sins - "No that's works. Do I have to say it verbatim? Do I have to say it every day? That's repetitive. I prefer to use my own words. No the bread is not Jesus' body because He was alive when He taught them this prayer, etc.." I just want to cry! I bet a Jewish person today, upon seeing Jesus clearly as the Messiah, can become the best true Christian believer on earth. Because he will need no explanation! The rest of the shenanigans with these answers here, calling themselves Christians (these are usually Protestants), will never be true believers!

 

[Christian Believer]

@BreadOfLife
Yes I fully agree. The bread in the Lord's Prayer and the bread in the Eucharist is the same. It's not either/or. This is very consistent with Jesus' teaching.
My whole point is, that churches don't clarify this. And I think it is crucial enough that they should, and should stress the importance of it. People are either not praying the Lord's Prayer, or if they are, they are not meaning it correctly. Jesus used these exact words: "this is how you should pray..." And in the prayer it says to pray it daily, to receive Jesus' body for the forgiveness of sins. No church is teaching this today.

Here's a comparison of God's 2 covenants. Jesus fulfilled the old covenant when He died on the cross.

The key takeaway from this table is:
The Jews had a long list of strict commandments, and detailed and sometimes difficult requirements, to execute twice a day, and all for what? Forgiveness of their sins! All this work, daily, for the forgiveness of sins!! And today, Christians don't want to simply pray the Lord's Prayer for the forgiveness of their sins - "No that's works. Do I have to say it verbatim? Do I have to say it every day? That's repetitive. I prefer to use my own words. No the bread is not Jesus' body because He was alive when He taught them this prayer, etc.." I just want to cry! I bet a Jewish person today, upon seeing Jesus clearly as the Messiah, can become the best true Christian believer on earth. Because he will need no explanation! The rest of the shenanigans with these answers here, calling themselves Christians (these are usually Protestants), will never be true believers!