The Blended Gospel

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tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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heretoeternity said:
What are you a cannibal?
It's a simple question: According to you, since you believe his words are easy to understand, what is the context of those words by Jesus? Are we eating his flesh and drinking his blood like he says or is it just a metaphor?
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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heretoeternity said:
What are you a cannibal?
Cannibalism is the act or practice of humans eating the flesh or internal organs of other human beings. If the people that walked and talked with Jesus ate his flesh or internal organs then they would be cannibals.

Since we Christians do not eat his flesh or organs we are not cannibals.

You are basically asking what the Jews asked Jesus when he told them we must eat his body/blood: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

My answer to you is His answer to them: Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[a] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”

I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

I find these words of Jesus easy to understand. Don't you?

I know it is a hard saying for you as it was for the Jews but I believe what Jesus said. Do you? Or are you going to walk away also?
 

FHII

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tom55 said:
How did we get the gospel (scripture)?

Thru MEN via the Holy Spirit.

So is it POSSIBLE the men of the Catholic Church are teaching the true gospel thru the Holy Spirit?
I'd like to backtrack to keep proper context. Someone asked who teaches the true gospel. H. Richard said the Holy Spirit and you responded as noted above.

I absolutely agree that it comes by the Holy Spirit through men. Yes, in the Bible it has come directly to men (some of them were not even apostles or ministers, but simply directly to disciples or "sheep"). But in most cases it will come through a chosen vessel in the form of a minister of some sort.

The second part Tom, about whether it is possible that it could come from a Catholic minister.... Yes, absolutely it is possible. But the Holy Spirit is NOT going to contradict the Bible.

It should be obvious to everyone that some of us don't think the doctrine of the Catholic Church violates the Bible and some think it does. I think several doctrines do go against what the Bible says.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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FHII said:
I'd like to backtrack to keep proper context. Someone asked who teaches the true gospel. H. Richard said the Holy Spirit and you responded as noted above.

I absolutely agree that it comes by the Holy Spirit through men. Yes, in the Bible it has come directly to men (some of them were not even apostles or ministers, but simply directly to disciples or "sheep"). But in most cases it will come through a chosen vessel in the form of a minister of some sort.

The second part Tom, about whether it is possible that it could come from a Catholic minister.... Yes, absolutely it is possible. But the Holy Spirit is NOT going to contradict the Bible.

It should be obvious to everyone that some of us don't think the doctrine of the Catholic Church violates the Bible and some think it does. I think several doctrines do go against what the Bible says.
Let's say the Holy Spirit was guiding Martin Luther when he protested about some of the Churches doctrines because those doctrines were "against what the Bible says" or he felt inspired that they 'contradicted the bible'. Was he the chosen vessel?

Let's say the Holy Spirit was guiding the men of the Catholic Church to come up with those doctrines that Martin Luther disagreed with.

How do we know which one had the Holy Spirit guiding them? Only one can be right. Which one and how do we know?
 

TopherNelson

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tom55 said:
If you are going to say that the Catholic Church does not teach the true gospel then you must know WHO teaches the "true gospel" if you know that the Catholic Church doesn't.

Who teaches the true gospel?
Me.
 

kerwin

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Aug 17, 2016
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tom55 said:
Who has the authority to properly instruct (teach) me or you on how to receive and walk according to the Spirit?

Who has the authority to say that I am currently walking according to the Spirit? Where are the guidelines in scripture to let us know who is walking according to the Spirit?
God will teach you through his Spirit if you come to him as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us what it takes to be his disciples in the gospel.

The hardest instruction I find to follow is "deny yourself" though "pick up your cross" may be as daunting.
 

FHII

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tom55 said:
Let's say the Holy Spirit was guiding Martin Luther when he protested about some of the Churches doctrines because those doctrines were "against what the Bible says" or he felt inspired that they 'contradicted the bible'. Was he the chosen vessel?

Let's say the Holy Spirit was guiding the men of the Catholic Church to come up with those doctrines that Martin Luther disagreed with.

How do we know which one had the Holy Spirit guiding them? Only one can be right. Which one and how do we know?

I'm not going to play the "what if" games. Bottom line: If you or your minister contradict the Bible, it isn't the Holy Spirit.
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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דוד חֵן (David) said:
I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic.

If you are not being sarcastic I am concerned for you and your soul.

If you are being sarcastic your response is evidence that you can not logically back up what you believe.
 

kerwin

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Aug 17, 2016
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tom55 said:
It's a simple question: According to you, since you believe his words are easy to understand, what is the context of those words by Jesus? Are we eating his flesh and drinking his blood like he says or is it just a metaphor?
They are easy to understand by those that have Spiritual ears and eyes but others may misinterpret them even when they consider the consider the context.

By the context it is a reference to the b-attitude about those that hunger and thirst for righteousness are filled. (Matthew 5:6) Paul also mentions "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ". (Romans 3:21-22)

Test what I said by the Spirit of God to see if it is true.

Others may hear other messages by the context. Those messages may or may not come from God which is why we are instructed to test the Spirit of what we hear and believe.
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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kerwin said:
God will teach you through his Spirit if you come to him as a disciple of Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us what it takes to be his disciples in the gospel.

The hardest instruction I find to follow is "deny yourself" though "pick up your cross" may be as daunting.
Are you saying all of us have the authority to properly teach if we walk according to the Spirit? Thru his Spirit I will know the truth of Scripture?

I, Tom55, feel like I am walking according to the Spirit and I suspect you think you are also.

Let's pretend you have great respect for me and my interpretation of the bible and we have decided to discuss 10 important subjects in the Bible. On subject #10 we get to the issue of baptism and I teach you that Baptism is only a symbol and I back it up with Scripture. You then go to someone else by the name of Joe you highly respect that agrees with me on the first 9 subjects however he teaches you opposite of what I just taught you about baptism and Joe backs up his belief with Scripture.

Who is walking according to the Spirit? If it is me then in the future you can't trust anything Joe tells you about the bible.

If it is Joe then in the future you can't trust anything I teach you about the bible.

How do you choose?
 

tom55

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Sep 9, 2013
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kerwin said:
They are easy to understand by those that have Spiritual ears and eyes but others may misinterpret them even when they consider the consider the context.
By the context it is a reference to the b-attitude about those that hunger and thirst for righteousness are filled. (Matthew 5:6) Paul also mentions "the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ". (Romans 3:21-22)
Test what I said by the Spirit of God to see if it is true.
Others may hear other messages by the context. Those messages may or may not come from God which is why we are instructed to test the Spirit of what we hear and believe.
You didn't answer the question: Are we eating his flesh and drinking his blood like he says or is it just a metaphor?

Since you agree with heretoenternity that scripture is easy to understand it should be very easy for you to answer that very simple question.
 

tom55

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FHII said:
I'm not going to play the "what if" games. Bottom line: If you or your minister contradict the Bible, it isn't the Holy Spirit.
No what if games here since I never wrote the words "what if"; you did!!

In my above example either Martin Luther or the Catholic Church was contradicting the bible therefor one of them was not being guided by the Holy Spirit. That may be a topic you don't want to discuss so let's try it a different way.

Here is an actual scenario (not a "what if" scenario) that is being played out today:

A large number of Christians believe that Scripture clearly states that the act of baptism is necessary to be saved.

Some believe that Scripture clearly says it is not necessary to be saved and that it is just a public act to show you are a Christian; a symbolic gesture.

Who is contradicting the bible when both groups, being led by ministers, believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of Scripture. Since the Holy Spirit is NOT going to contradict the Bible only one of them can be right.
 

FHII

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tom55 said:
No what if games here since I never wrote the words "what if"; you did!!

In my above example either Martin Luther or the Catholic Church was contradicting the bible therefor one of them was not being guided by the Holy Spirit. That may be a topic you don't want to discuss so let's try it a different way.

Here is an actual scenario (not a "what if" scenario) that is being played out today:

A large number of Christians believe that Scripture clearly states that the act of baptism is necessary to be saved.

Some believe that Scripture clearly says it is not necessary to be saved and that it is just a public act to show you are a Christian; a symbolic gesture.

Who is contradicting the bible when both groups, being led by ministers, believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of Scripture. Since the Holy Spirit is NOT going to contradict the Bible only one of them can be right.

Those are what if scenerios. Usin the term "lets say.." is the same thing as what if.

Don't care about martin luther either. Again, the bottom line is....
 

kerwin

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Aug 17, 2016
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tom55 said:
No what if games here since I never wrote the words "what if"; you did!!

In my above example either Martin Luther or the Catholic Church was contradicting the bible therefor one of them was not being guided by the Holy Spirit. That may be a topic you don't want to discuss so let's try it a different way.

Here is an actual scenario (not a "what if" scenario) that is being played out today:

A large number of Christians believe that Scripture clearly states that the act of baptism is necessary to be saved.

Some believe that Scripture clearly says it is not necessary to be saved and that it is just a public act to show you are a Christian; a symbolic gesture.

Who is contradicting the bible when both groups, being led by ministers, believe they are being led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of Scripture. Since the Holy Spirit is NOT going to contradict the Bible only one of them can be right.
What if both are led by their human desires and the bible is their battlegrounds?

Luther's complains were not even that much in difference from what Catholics teach and there was no council held to resolve the difference. For instance he objected to indulgences which were illegal in Germany but never the less practiced.

He claimed that salvation was by faith and grace while the Catholic Church claims it was by works. According by Scripture it is by faith in God, the grace of God, and the works of God done through believers. In short both parties were incorrect.

Martin Luther was correct about the primacy of the bible but others were also speaking of that at the time.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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FHII said:
Those are what if scenerios. Usin the term "lets say.." is the same thing as what if.

Don't care about martin luther either. Again, the bottom line is....
Dang....You have seen thru my RUSE.

You have realized that you can not logically answer my question/scenario without destroying your own theory. As you may have noticed I used YOUR words and logic to frame the question. So in reality the question I have asked was not constructed by me; it was constructed by YOU.

None the less it now seems you can't answer the question based on the logic you used.

Take your time. Do some research and get back with me when you can answer my very logical, factual and not a "what if" scenario without destroying your own fallacious belief.

PS...There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't have an answer for you Tom".
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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kerwin said:
What if both are led by their human desires and the bible is their battlegrounds?

Luther's complains were not even that much in difference from what Catholics teach and there was no council held to resolve the difference. For instance he objected to indulgences which were illegal in Germany but never the less practiced.

He claimed that salvation was by faith and grace while the Catholic Church claims it was by works. According by Scripture it is by faith in God, the grace of God, and the works of God done through believers. In short both parties were incorrect.

Martin Luther was correct about the primacy of the bible but others were also speaking of that at the time.
He claimed that salvation was by faith and grace while the Catholic Church claims it was by works. (not a factual statement but we can discuss it in another thread)

OK then.....lets go with YOUR scenario. Who was right if both are allegedly being guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth?

They can't both have the truth...can they??
 

kerwin

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Aug 17, 2016
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tom55 said:
He claimed that salvation was by faith and grace while the Catholic Church claims it was by works. (not a factual statement but we can discuss it in another thread)

OK then.....lets go with YOUR scenario. Who was right if both are allegedly being guided by the Holy Spirit to the Truth?

They can't both have the truth...can they??
Neither of them were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Both parties were walking according to their flesh.

My source for the first post is History.

The bottom line is that the disagreement led to Martin Luther's being excommunicated by the RCC Pope of that time so the Pope obviously saw a disagreement or did it for political reasons.
 

tom55

Love your neighbor as yourself
Sep 9, 2013
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kerwin said:
Neither of them were guided by the Holy Spirit.

Both parties were walking according to their flesh.

My source for the first post is History.

The bottom line is that the disagreement led to Martin Luther's being excommunicated by the RCC Pope of that time so the Pope obviously saw a disagreement or did it for political reasons.
You believe that neither were guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the question on how to obtain salvation.... which is a pretty serious matter...but I digress.

Historically we know they had a "disagreement" on the matter. Since one needs to know how to obtain salvation so they can go to heaven and both Luther and the RCC can't be right in what they believed/preached...Who was right? Who had the truth?

I understand YOU believe they were both "walking according to their flesh". But only one of them can be right. So who do YOU, kerwin, think was right in this "disagreement"?
 

FHII

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tom55 said:
Dang....You have seen thru my RUSE.

You have realized that you can not logically answer my question/scenario without destroying your own theory. As you may have noticed I used YOUR words and logic to frame the question. So in reality the question I have asked was not constructed by me; it was constructed by YOU.

None the less it now seems you can't answer the question based on the logic you used.

Take your time. Do some research and get back with me when you can answer my very logical, factual and not a "what if" scenario without destroying your own fallacious belief.

PS...There is nothing wrong with saying, "I don't have an answer for you Tom".

I have no idea what you are even taljing about, Tom. What words did I use that even remotely resemble your comparing martin luther to whatever it was.... Where did i talk about baptism? I actually agreed with you in sayin the Holy Spirit can come to a Catholic Priest. I just also noted thatthe HS isn't going to contradict the Bible.

Do you disagree?

Then I said i disagree with much of the Catholic teaching. Is news to you? And what does luther have to do with it?

THAT question I can answer: instead of defending your doctrine you attacked someone else's.

I ain't playing that game.
 

kerwin

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Aug 17, 2016
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tom55 said:
You believe that neither were guided by the Holy Spirit when it comes to the question on how to obtain salvation.... which is a pretty serious matter...but I digress.

Historically we know they had a "disagreement" on the matter. Since one needs to know how to obtain salvation so they can go to heaven and both Luther and the RCC can't be right in what they believed/preached...Who was right? Who had the truth?

I understand YOU believe they were both "walking according to their flesh". But only one of them can be right. So who do YOU, kerwin, think was right in this "disagreement"?
In the case you mentioned neither was correct though each was partially correct.

The Roman Catholic Church error is that Scripture and their interpretation of it has become a top down moral code. In doing this they lost track of the message of how God writes his Law on the hearts and minds of believers.

Martin Luther saw corruption is the RCC attributed it to the later's teaching of salvation by works. His response was reject that teaching and come up with an alternative gospel of salvation by grace and faith. In doing so he also rejected the same message the RCC did.

In short neither party teaches the message will fulfill the promise that the those that deeply desire to be righteous will be filled with a righteousness that like God's. Many continue to make that same error today.