The 'blessed virgin Mary'

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BreadOfLife

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"Greek experts" according to you? lol
You're trying to rewrite our Bible because you don't like it.
Nope - Greek experts according to Protestant scholars.
MOST of the expert scholarship I presented was PROTESTANT.

Nobody is "rewriting" anything.
Just showing you things about Scripture that YOU are ignorant of . . .
 

kcnalp

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Nope - the Catholic church has never taught that.

Since you believe that she is the mother of Jesus, who is GOD - that makes her the mother of GOD.
It doesn't make her the mother of the Trinity.
Ok, I'm quite pleased that you don't believe that Mary is God!
 

kcnalp

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It's a stupid question because anybody with half a brain knows that this is NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church.
Do you have at least half a brain?
Honestly it doesn't even take "half a brain" to know Mary was not sinless.

Romans 3:23 (NKJV)
23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
 

kcnalp

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Nope - Greek experts according to Protestant scholars.
MOST of the expert scholarship I presented was PROTESTANT.

Nobody is "rewriting" anything.
Just showing you things about Scripture that YOU are ignorant of . . .
That's a LIE. You're trying to rewrite the Bible.
 

BreadOfLife

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That's a LIE. You're trying to rewrite the Bible.
It's a "LIE" that the Angel referred to Mary as "Kecharitomene"??
Time for another Bible Lesson . . .

In the original Koine Greek (not English) in which the New Testament was written, the phrase that Luke uses is:
"χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη", which translates as, "Rejoice, Kecharitomene" (Luke 1:28)

As I schooled you a few posts back - the word "Kecharitomene" translates as "one having been completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace".

Jerome used the phrase "Gratia plena" (full of grace) in his Latin vulgate because there is no good single word that can be directly translated from "one having been completely, perfectly and enduringly endowed with grace".

It's NOT about "rewriting" the Bible.
It's about having enough brains to go to reputable Greek scholarship to find out what the original language is actually saying.
 

BreadOfLife

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Honestly it doesn't even take "half a brain" to know Mary was not sinless.
Romans 3:23 (NKJV)
23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Does that include Jesus?
After all - He is part of "ALL".

Does that include babies, who are completely unable to sin?
They're part of "ALL", too.

How about the unborn?
Aren't they part of "ALL"??
 

Illuminator

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You should have known that before posting your idiotic question . . .
kcnalp is goading.
goad
[ɡōd]
VERB
goading (present participle)
  1. provoke or annoy (someone) so as to stimulate some action or reaction.
    "he goaded her on to more daring revelations"
    synonyms:
    provoke · spur · prick · sting · prod · egg on · hound · badger · incite · rouse ·
    [more]
  2. drive or urge (an animal) on with a goad.
 
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Illuminator

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Honestly it doesn't even take "half a brain" to know Mary was not sinless.

Romans 3:23 (NKJV)
23 All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
"Mary a sinner" contradicts all the reformers, it was not a reformist issue, but a post-reformist invention. It crawled out of the sewage of false 18th century philosophies of the Enlightenment era. Before that, every Protestant church on the planet accepted the reformist view that Mary was conceived without sin. In reaction to Protestant liberalism and modernism, the Fundamentalist movement began in 1906. Modernism was condemned by the pope as "The Synthesis of all Heresies". in 1907.
"Mary a sinner" is a 200 year old man made tradition that has infected sections of Protestantism like a virus.
 

Illuminator

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Luke 1:28
Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language).

(some) Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).
The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . .
The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .

(Kittel, 1304-1305)

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:

1. Grace saves us.

2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.
continued...
 
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Illuminator

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In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.

One possible quibble might be about when God applied this grace to Mary. We know (from Luke 1:28) that she had it as a young woman, at the Annunciation. Catholics believe that God gave her the grace at her conception so that she might avoid the original sin that she otherwise wouldhave inherited, being human. Therefore, by God's preventive grace, she was saved from falling into the pit of sin, rather than rescued after she had fallen in.

All of this follows straightforwardly from Luke 1:28 and the (primarily Pauline) exegesis of charis elsewhere in the New Testament. It would be strange for a Protestant to underplay grace, when they are known for their constant emphasis on grace alone for salvation. (We Catholics fully agree with that; we merely deny the tenet of "faith alone," as contrary to the clear teaching of St. James and St. Paul.)

Protestants keep objecting that these Catholic beliefs are speculative; that is, that they go far beyond the biblical evidence. But once one delves deeply enough into Scripture and the meanings of the words of Scripture, they are not that speculative at all. Rather, it looks much more like Protestant theology has selectively trumpeted the power of grace when it applies to all the rest of us Christian believers, but downplayed it when it applies to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

What we have, then, is not so much a matter of Catholics reading into Scripture, as Protestants, in effect, reading certain passages out of Scripture altogether (that is, ignoring their strong implications), because they do not fit in with their preconceived notions

Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/full-of-grace-and-the-linguistic-and-exegetical-considerations-by-dave-armstrong/
 
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Taodeching

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That's a LIE. You're trying to rewrite the Bible.

Just because you don't have the intelligent capacity in your arguments like BreadofLife does not mean Breadoflife is lying. You make some erroneous assumptions like the Bible was dropped from Heaven in English (and before you bust a blood vessel saying you don't we can all see your action speaks otherwise). The second erroneous assumption you make is that everyone has to be a Greek scholar when that isn't true, the Greek Bible is still around with direct translation and it is quite easy to see what the word in Greek is.

If your going to debate then you need to do your homework and stop making assumptions, it makes your arguments look stupid when you have no idea what your talking about.
 
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robert derrick

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No, I reject a man made adulterated list of books...

And I reject a man made adulterated list of canons... (No matter how loud their bang)

And the answer is final. Catholics of the Catholic religion are not washed in the blood of the Lamb, even as their religion is not found on the Scriptures of Jesus...

Engaging them personally is as trying to convince unbelieving Jews and Islamists of Scriptural truth. The Jews have rabbinical fathers' traditions, the Muslims have Mohamed traditions, and the Catholics have catholic fathers' traditions: none of which are by the sure Word of God and prophecy of Jesus Christ.

'Mary' is no more Mother of God, than Demeter is Mother of earth.
 

BreadOfLife

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And I reject a man made adulterated list of canons... (No matter how loud their bang)

And the answer is final. Catholics of the Catholic religion are not washed in the blood of the Lamb, even as their religion is not found on the Scriptures of Jesus...

Engaging them personally is as trying to convince unbelieving Jews and Islamists of Scriptural truth. The Jews have rabbinical fathers' traditions, the Muslims have Mohamed traditions, and the Catholics have catholic fathers' traditions: none of which are by the sure Word of God and prophecy of Jesus Christ.

'Mary' is no more Mother of God, than Demeter is Mother of earth.
I ALSO reject a man-made canon of Scripture.

That's why I reject the Protestant Canon of the OT, which ejects 7 Books and parts of Daniel and Esther that were ejected by the POST Christ, POST Temple rabbinical council during the 2nd century that was declared by a FALSE prophet (Rabbi Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE Messiah (Simon Kohkkbar).
Why on earth Protestants would adhere to this perverted canon at is BEYOND me.

As for Mary NOT being the Mother of God - that is simply due to YOUR blasphemous rejection of Jesus Christ as God.
Good luck telling HIM that when He judges you . . .
 

Hemlock

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Greek-only parts of Daniel have Daniel spending a whole week in the lion's den - the account in everyone's Bible has Daniel spending only one night in the den.

In this spurious week-long stay - Daniel is brought food by the prophet Habakkuk.

Thing is - Habakkuk had died about a CENTURY before the lion's den incident
 

Philip James

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What really puzzels me, is why anyone would be surprised, that the mother of the Groom has a place of honour at the Feast?

Is it not fitting?

Peace be with you!
 

robert derrick

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Greek-only parts of Daniel have Daniel spending a whole week in the lion's den - the account in everyone's Bible has Daniel spending only one night in the den.

In this spurious week-long stay - Daniel is brought food by the prophet Habakkuk.

Thing is - Habakkuk had died about a CENTURY before the lion's den incident
Only puzzles that the Catholic religion could like. They love puzzles and mysteries that ought not be puzzling nor mysterious.

The truly puzzling and mysterious thing about it all is that some people just love complication more than simplicity.

Mystery Babylon hates the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus, because for some reason they prefer another name like 'Mary' and another religion like 'Catholic'.

Maybe it's the whole thing of being washed in the icky blood of the Lamb. I'm thinking, yes, that's it.

"I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (John 5)

"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." (2 Cor 11)
 

robert derrick

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"What really puzzles me, is why anyone would be surprised, that the mother of the Groom has a place of honour at the Feast?"

And the most puzzling thing of all is why Catholics washed in the milk of Mary and firmly in the tank of their own Canons care one whit for Scripture they decry as flawed in the first place?

Those not washed in the blood of the Lamb having nothing to do with the man Christ Jesus. So why do they bother with His written words?

Afterall, they have Mary's and their religion's tradition of fathers.

Seriously, why do they even bother trying to somehow justify their own religion and canons with the Bible?? They rewrite it, they decry it, they declare it insufficient, and yet they keep going back to it for justification of their own beliefs.

Children. That's it. Never-grown children of a Mother that doesn't exist. (Also, someone needs to report this guy to the Vatican for calling the Blessed Virgin and Mother Mary a little 'mother'...)
 
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Truth7t7

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No, I reject a man made adulterated list of books...

And I reject a man made adulterated list of canons... (No matter how loud their bang)

And the answer is final. Catholics of the Catholic religion are not washed in the blood of the Lamb, even as their religion is not found on the Scriptures of Jesus...

Engaging them personally is as trying to convince unbelieving Jews and Islamists of Scriptural truth. The Jews have rabbinical fathers' traditions, the Muslims have Mohamed traditions, and the Catholics have catholic fathers' traditions: none of which are by the sure Word of God and prophecy of Jesus Christ.

'Mary' is no more Mother of God, than Demeter is Mother of earth.
Mary dosent bring the gift of salvation as the Roman Catholic Church Falsely Teaches.

From The RCC Catechism #969 Before Your Eyes, Mary briging the gift of eternal salvation?

Mary, The Catechism Of The Catholic Church

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation … Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."