The Church The Papacy Says You Should Join

[brakelite]

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all work together in harmony. One is not over the other. That is the biblical final authority on faith and morals. I challenge you, using scripture alone, to prove Tradition and the Magisterium are not necessary, or won't be necessary at some future point.

Clearly and succinctly put. For Catholicism, that is the standard. What I do not understand is why protestants who for Protestantism deny what you have stated as being appropriate for them, turn around and follow Catholic tradition in honouring Sunday. Which was the point of the OP.

 

[brakelite]

As usual - you posted a few SECONDARY sources.
You NEVER post primary sources because that would mean doing some actual homework and discovering that there AREN'T any.

oh please. Here speaks the guy who used law advertisements as evidence for abuse elsewhere. How secondary and biased can that be?

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is false. Jesus said, as recorded in John 17:17: "Make them holy by your truth; teach them your word, which is truth."
Jesus also affirmed the authority of the Old Testament in John 10:35. He said, "...the Scriptures cannot be broken." The gospels and the Epistles were accepted as Scripture from the very early Jewish-Christian days of the Church and the reading of such was simply added to the customary reading of the Tanakh.


That passage says: "With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you, both in person and by letter." The word of God and the Word of God is TRUTH---men do lie.

And you erroneously assume that ALL of God's truth and ALL of God's Word is revealed in the written form (Scripture).
NOWHERE does Scripture support this false Protestant invention.

The Word of God is revealed - as the Scriptures tell us - in Scripture and Tradition (Luke 10:16, 2 Thess. 3:6, 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15).
As to your rejection of 2 Thess. 2:15 - I suggest you take that up with GOD and not me. It's HIS word you're rejecting - not mine . . .

 

[brakelite]

@BreadOfLife I don't actually mind you pointing out the weaknesses in people's arguments, so long as you stay consistent and follow the same guidelines you set for others.

 

[BreadOfLife]

oh please. Here speaks the guy who used law advertisements as evidence for abuse elsewhere. How secondary and biased can that be?

It was simply to show that there is ALSO a sex abuse problem within YOUR sect.
I wasn't trying to change history like Phoneyman . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

@BreadOfLife I don't actually mind you pointing out the weaknesses in people's arguments, so long as you stay consistent and follow the same guidelines you set for others.

And I DO . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not really. If this Magisterium doctrine were true, the Eastern Orthodox would not have rejected it, being so close to the Catholic church. And they had a biblical reason for rejecting the papacy.

"It is the position of Orthodox Christianity that Roman Catholic arguments in support of the teaching have relied on proofs from Fathers that have either been misinterpreted or so taken out of context as to misrepresent their true intent. It is the position of Orthodox Christianity that a closer examination of those supposed supports would have the effect of either not supporting the argument or have the opposite effect of supporting the counter-argument."

There are TWO problems with this.
a) Doctrinally - the Orthodox are pretty much on par with Catholic teaching.
b) A schism is NOT "proof" for debunking Catholic doctrine. It simply shows a disagreement.

 

[brakelite]

It was simply to show that there is ALSO a sex abuse problem within YOUR sect.
I wasn't trying to change history like Phoneyman . . .

It was still a secondary source... An advertisement for crying out loud... But I did not deny that it pointed out a truth... Yes, there was an issue in our church, as there is in all churches, and my personal testimony is that the issue is being dealt with. Phoneman had cited a source you may disagree with, yet the historical evidence...a massively ornate and richly decorated building sitting in the heart of the Vatican... Testifies against you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

It was still a secondary source... An advertisement for crying out loud... But I did not deny that it pointed out a truth... Yes, there was an issue in our church, as there is in all churches, and my personal testimony is that the issue is being dealt with. Phoneman had cited a source you may disagree with, yet the historical evidence...a massively ornate and richly decorated building sitting in the heart of the Vatican... Testifies against you.

-
There is a HUGE difference between mine and Phoneyman's posts.

He claimed that he was stating historical fact about the Church "ordering" the selling of Indulgences. This is fiction.
I simply claimed that there was an abuse problem within the SDA church - and showed evidence of it.

If ALL I had posted was an advertisement - they I would be just as dishonest as Phoneyman.
However, I included it with SEVERAL articles about actual cases.

 

[brakelite]

-
There is a HUGE difference between mine and Phoneyman's posts.

He claimed that he was stating historical fact about the Church "ordering" the selling of Indulgences. This is fiction.
I simply claimed that there was an abuse problem within the SDA church - and showed evidence of it.

If ALL I had posted was an advertisement - they I would be just as dishonest as Phoneyman.
However, I included it with SEVERAL articles about actual cases.

Is not the very existence of St Peter's Basilica "an actual case" which supports the Vatican sorry for the sake of indulgences... And Tetzel was just the more controversial of many monks and priests who carried out that practice.
Neither phoneman nor I deny the abuse problem within our church. Our church does not deny it. But the Catholic problem BoL is of pandemic proportions. Your own church has admitted as much by paying out millions in compensation as well as confessions from all levels of administration of guilt and admittance of failure in dealing adequately with the issue, if at all. Phoneman I think is simply wondering when you are going to admit it?

 

[prism]

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium all work together in harmony. One is not over the other. That is the biblical final authority on faith and morals. I challenge you, using scripture alone, to prove Tradition and the Magisterium are not necessary, or won't be necessary at some future point.

I guess you haven't read through the thread. i'm contending that when tradition and magisterium are at odds, scripture trumps them all. IOW, i'm not for discarding the others but they must bow to the authority of Scripture

 

[BreadOfLife]

Is not the very existence of St Peter's Basilica "an actual case" which supports the Vatican sorry for the sake of indulgences... And Tetzel was just the more controversial of many monks and priests who carried out that practice.
Neither phoneman nor I deny the abuse problem within our church. Our church does not deny it. But the Catholic problem BoL is of pandemic proportions. Your own church has admitted as much by paying out millions in compensation as well as confessions from all levels of administration of guilt and admittance of failure in dealing adequately with the issue, if at all. Phoneman I think is simply wondering when you are going to admit it?

Nope.
If YOU actually believe that the Vatican was built purely on money from Indulgences - they you will have to PROVE that.
That's a pretty silly theory - and one I would LOVE for you to provide evidence for. 500 years of Catholic-hating Protestants haven't been able to do it - but if YOU think you can - more power to you . . .

As to the abuse scandal - I never denied that it happened - so I'm NOT sure why you would make that false claim.
As far as the money that has been shelled out - I already explained that and referred you to the book Pedophiles and Priests by Protestant author, Philip Jenkins.

He shows the pattern laid out by secular lawyers who went after the Catholic Church - and the Catholic Church ALONE because of its perceived wealth. They literally turned away from the smaller cases within Protestantism because many of those churches weren't INSURED. Jenkins explains that the reason the Catholic Church was in the "limelight" was because of the MONEY - not because of some great "crusade" by the press.

Whereas the problem is almost NON-EXISTENT in the Catholic Church of today - it is THRIVING in Protestant churches and public school systems across the country.

 

[prism]

I'm not sure why you're asking me thins - I already told you.

I believe as Christ and the Apostles taught - that His CHURCH is our final Authority here on earth (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess. 2:15). We don't have a "SOLE" Authority because we ascribe to the Scriptures, Sacred Tradition and Church Authority.

And I have asked you before, which Church? Rome? Eastern/Greek Orthodox? which? and on what basis?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I guess you haven't read through the thread. i'm contending that when tradition and magisterium are at odds, scripture trumps them all. IOW, i'm not for discarding the others but they must bow to the authority of Scripture

This is a false premise.
There is NO instance where the Magisterium and Scripture are at "odds".

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I have asked you before, which Church? Rome? Eastern/Greek Orthodox? which? and on what basis?

You must be new here . . .
I am a Catholic - not Eastern or Greek Orthodox.

By the way - Rome isn't a Church. I belong to the Catholic Church.
On what basis, you ask? On the words of Christ and the Apostles, as I presented them to you (Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess. 2:15).

 

[quietthinker]

It only takes ONE false prophecy to make a false prophet.
You don't need to have read every volume she wrote to find a false prophecy . . .

and what would that false prophecy be?

 

[Soverign Grace]

Hey, SG. Have you ever seen the relatively new Pope Paul VI Audience Hall? Check this out: The Dark Secrets Behind The Pope’s Audience Hall (It’s a Giant Reptilian)

They have a statue of supposedly Christ up behind the papal throne and it looks like it has a snake's head from both sides. You can only see "Jesus'" face from the front and it is a bizarre-looking statue at that. They made up some bla-blah about it but they haven't come up with any excuses about the design of the audience hall that I have heard. It is quite creepy.

I did see the hall that looks like a serpent and it's creepy! I think that statute of Christ is dishonoring. That really confirmed to me what this Pope is about. I'm unsure at what point the Vatican was taken over by evil - I haven't pieced it together yet. I recall that the illuminati said that "they just need the 'right' Pope.' They've infiltrated everything else.

I had great respect for my father, a staunch Catholic, so I don't believe that the denomination is what defines someone but I think that those supporting the Catholic Church should have their eyes opened that this Pope is not what he pretends to be. But that can also be true for any denomination. After being in a number of churches spanning 40 years I can say that most had serious issues: pride with the leadership was the worst. Then I saw certain people being singled out for praise or to go on trips.

It's comical when I look back at the one church we supported with our hard-earned money. The pastor and his good buddies used church funds to fly to some island to "evangelize it." The church was in a bad city and they could have walked out the front door of the church to evangelize. It was a lie that they pushed to use church donations to go on a trip. I saw where they lied to themselves and us.

 

[Soverign Grace]

1 John 4:20

“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”

 

[Soverign Grace]

While we're all arguing over doctrine, are you aware that our government signed it into law that they can legally kill Christians? It's called the 'Noahide laws.'

Now the Government can Legally Kill Christians

 

[BreadOfLife]

and what would that false prophecy be?

Where to begin??

For starters – Ellen G. White predicted the world would end in 1843, 1844, 1845 and 1851:
“the believers explained their mistake & gave reasons why they expected their Lord in 1844.”
(Early Writings, p.237)


White predicted that some of the people living in 1856 would live to see our Lord’s return:
“I was shown the company present at the Conference.
Said the angel: ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the 7 last plagues, some will be alive
and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.'’ (Vol. 1, p.131,132,
Testimonies for the Church)

This is clearly a false prophecy


She falsely predicted that England would declare war on the United states during our Civil War – and that we would be “humbled to the dust”:
“This nation will yet be humbled into the dust. England is studying whether . . . to make war
on her. When England does declare war, . . . there will be general war.”
(Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p.259).
As we know – this NEVER came to pass.


In 1850, White falsely predicted that Jerusalem would never be built up. Bible scholars at the time were teaching about the Jews returning to Palestine and about Jerusalem being restored.
White said, “I also saw that Old Jerusalem would never be built up.” (Early Writings, p.75)
Israel has indeed been greatly built up since its rebirth in 1948 – not to mention the Six Day War in 1967.

All it takes is ONE false prophecy to make a FALSE prophet.
I just showed you more than SIX . . .