The Cleansing of the Sanctuary & The 70 Weeks of Daniel

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Jun2u

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Shturt678

Just curious?

Regarding Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptads".....What's wrong with covering the time of Daniel to the consummation of all things at the end of time, ie, God's program for all ages?

When you get a chance,

Old Jack

btw, sorry, enjoying the thread too much.
The end of the second path that I shall show will also have begun with the first path but ends at the time of the "catching up" or "rapture" of the believers, which is the last day.

To God Be The Glory
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, DaDad.

DaDad said:
Hi brakelite.


What?!? You made several accusatory comments, which I rebuffed.

And now you suggest that being "rational" is based upon the eye-of-the-beholder. Simple logic dictates rationality, as Mr. Spock exemplified in the TV series "Star Trek".



There wasn't a SHRED of "prayerful thought". Who in their right mind would:

1. DISOBEY the Angelic instructions in Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9
2. IGNORE the shibiym inconcise Masculine gender text; and treat it as though it were the shabuwa concise Feminine gender text
3. DISREGARD that the "going forth of the Word" inferred a DIRECT GOD dictate; and ascribe it to a MAN-MADE dictate
4. TWIST Scripture from the "seven" as one duration and the "sixty-two" as a second duration; and ascribe a SINGLE duration of sixty-nine
5. CONTRIVE that there was not ONE anointed one after the seven and a SECOND anointed one after the sixty-two; but ascribe s SINGLE anointed one after the sixty-nine
6. ABUSE what is an end-time fulfillment; and arrive to a historically IMPOSSIBLE ancient history assertion
7. DECEIVE an entire audience into believing that the seventieth week is not a coherent part of the seventy; but is magically transported to some distant future fulfillment
8. CONNIVE the Peace Agreement seventieth week; as though it were the "Tribulation" duration

ALL these things are known to the scholars, but they are unable to resolve the fulfillment. So then the commentators apparently feel compelled to have a "solution" and they make lies out of whole cloth.

And it's out of their prevarications that your purported "fulfillment" lays.



Perhaps you could use some DISCOVER, DIALOGUE, and ACKNOWLEDGEMENT. And if you're interested, I'd be more than happy to present what Scripture ACTUALLY says, and what History ACTUALLY fulfills.


With Best Regards,
DD
And, when are YOU going to understand that there is NOTHING about "shiviym" (NOT "shibiym") that is an "irregular masculine gender!" Gender in Hebrew adjectives (such as numbers) must have the same gender as the words which they modify! IF the word is different from one place to another, then the NOUNS which those adjectives modify HAVE CHANGED!

Just because others (who also are unfamiliar with Hebrew) THINK there is an irregularity, doesn't mean that they are correct! LEARN HEBREW BEFORE you try to understand a Hebrew text!
 

DaDad

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Hi Retrobyter,

Retrobyter said:
And, when are YOU going to understand that there is NOTHING about "shiviym"...
Please provide your thoughts to Walvoord, "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", and correction to Young, Keit, & Kliefoth:


Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218



With Best Regards,
DD

Hi Jun2u,

Jun2u said:
Brakelite,

... your post is the only one I've read that comes close to understanding the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9, ...
[SIZE=12pt]Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all., P.218

Per Montgomery:
"... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217[/SIZE]



Perhaps you could advise the scholars who have researched the problems and come up to NO solution, -- rather than the commentators who apparently feel compelled to have a solution without the cumbersome problems.


With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
Hi Retrobyter,


Please provide your thoughts to Walvoord, "Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation", and correction to Young, Keit, & Kliefoth:


Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218



With Best Regards,
DD

Hi Jun2u,


[SIZE=12pt]Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all., P.218

Per Montgomery:
"... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217[/SIZE]



Perhaps you could advise the scholars who have researched the problems and come up to NO solution, -- rather than the commentators who apparently feel compelled to have a solution without the cumbersome problems.


With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you again for caring!

Only an insignificant posit from of a very low paygrade level, eg, Dan.25, ie, let's not omit the very important - the separating Atnach under shaveah, ie, the two parts of v.25 contain the statements regarding the two portions of the whole period, the seven and the sixty two, and are separated.

Old Jack's two-bits

btw I'm an "Amillennialist"
 

DaDad

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shturt678 said:
Dan.25, ... contain the statements regarding the two portions of the whole period, the seven and the sixty two, and are separated.
Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html



shturt678 said:
btw I'm an "Amillennialist"
Although Mauro correctly anticipated,[SIZE=12pt] "a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks[/SIZE]", he failed to perceive that the seventieth week lasts seven years, "[SIZE=12pt] but an indefinite period for the last seven years[/SIZE]". And I would propose that Mauro also missed the fulfillment which has NOTHING to do with Jesus.



Perhaps the scholars should have heeded the angelic instructions, which would have placed the fulfillment approximate to 1948:

Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

And toward this, please be aware that with the advent of modern transportation and the computer, both travel and knowledge have increased.



With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewton.ca/daniel_apocalypse/pt1ch10.html




Although Mauro correctly anticipated,[SIZE=12pt] "a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks[/SIZE]", he failed to perceive that the seventieth week lasts seven years, "[SIZE=12pt] but an indefinite period for the last seven years[/SIZE]". And I would propose that Mauro also missed the fulfillment which has NOTHING to do with Jesus.



Perhaps the scholars should have heeded the angelic instructions, which would have placed the fulfillment approximate to 1948:

Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

And toward this, please be aware that with the advent of modern transportation and the computer, both travel and knowledge have increased.



With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your response, and caring!

Interesting you being forth Mr. Newton, ie, we had him decades ago, used as an excellent example of what a modern Arian looked like - no offense imntended, and non-Trinitarian, soul not immortal, and etc. all due to Mr. Newton not understanding the ancient languages, and interpreting going from the ancient languages forward to the English like I stated before.

For example, Dan.12:4 grammatically and contextually has to do with perusing the Bible, and not the worldly wisdom that also has increased.

Old, now Millennialist, Jack

btw also remember Mr. Philip Mauro with his future "Millennial" approach to eschotology, however has been decades.
 

DaDad

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Hi shturt678,

shturt678 said:
... to Mr. Newton not understanding ...
With all due respect, why would someone discount another? I presume you are not without sin, therefore what, -- is everything you say a lie? Isn't the TRUTH of a matter independent of the presenter?

"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


As such, Newton's point stands without recourse, -- unless you have some evidence that numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.


shturt678 said:
Dan.12:4 grammatically and contextually has to do with perusing the Bible, and not the worldly wisdom that also has increased.
Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”


Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, but how in the world do you defend your purported "context"? Are you perchance a Mennonite, where you only use a horse and buggy? Most people use air travel.

And what of Moore's Law? When in world history has knowledge doubled roughly every two years?!? Or once again, do you use a piece of charcoal and the back of a shovel? Most people have computers.



Sorry, I forgot you're an Amillennialist.

With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,


With all due respect, why would someone discount another? I presume you are not without sin, therefore what, -- is everything you say a lie? Isn't the TRUTH of a matter independent of the presenter?

"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


As such, Newton's point stands without recourse, -- unless you have some evidence that numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.



Daniel 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”


Certainly you're entitled to your opinion, but how in the world do you defend your purported "context"? Are you perchance a Mennonite, where you only use a horse and buggy? Most people use air travel.

And what of Moore's Law? When in world history has knowledge doubled roughly every two years?!? Or once again, do you use a piece of charcoal and the back of a shovel? Most people have computers.



Sorry, I forgot you're an Amillennialist.

With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your response again, and caring!

If Mr. Newton's prediction of the end of the world in 2060 does come to pass then I'll recant all regarding his non-Trinitarian view, and etc., however I won't be around waaay before that time for sure?

If the following is a fallacious interpretation of Dan.12:4, then I'll also recant all my views of Daniel:

Dan.12:4b, "...many shall diligently peruse it, and knowledge shall be increased." "Many shall peruse it." The verb shut does not mean primarily "run to and fro." But with reference to a book that would mean to let the eyes run to and fro, that is, "peruse" it. Since it's an intensive form of the verb (yeshotetu), thus the shade of meaning would be "diligently peruse." They will read, reread, and check on what they have read, and so ponder these words diligently in their heart as did Mary on another occasion. And in the process of such earnest searching "knowledge shall be increased," not speakng of 'rocket science,' and etc. grammatcially or contextually.

"Let him that readeth understand," Matt.24:15.

Old Jack's opinion
 

DaDad

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Hi shturt678,

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response again, and caring!

If Mr. Newton's prediction
Once again, if you've made ONE mistake, then EVERYTHING you do or say is FALSE. -- Is this how you judge others AND YOURSELF?


"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


This TRUTH stands, -- just as Scripture stands --, independent of the presenter. Please do not impugn the TRUTH because you have an hidden agenda.
Secondly, if you wish to discount Newton's observation, then please provide ONE citation where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.


shturt678 said:
Dan.12:4b,
Blue Letter Bible
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=12&t=KJV#s=t_conc_862004

But,thou, O Daniel, h1840 Daniye'l
shut up h1840 catham
the words, h1697 dabar
and seal h2856 chatham

the book, h5612 cepher

even to the time h6256 `eth
of the end: h7093 qets
many h7227 rab
shall run to and fro h7751 shuwt
and knowledge h1847 da`ath
shall be increased h7235 rabah


... how in the world do you defend your purported "context"? Are you perchance a Mennonite, where you only use a horse and buggy? Most people use air travel.

And what of Moore's Law? When in world history has knowledge doubled roughly every two years?!? Or once again, do you use a piece of charcoal and the back of a shovel? Most people have computers.



With Best Regards,
DD



PS You might wish to consider that "peruse" means BOTH a casual and a an intensive evaluation:



pe·ruse
verb \pə-ˈrüz\

: to look at or read (something) in an informal or relaxed way
: to examine or read (something) in a very careful way




1.a : to examine or consider with attention and in detail : study

b : to look over or through in a casual or cursory manner


2
: read; especially : to read over in an attentive or leisurely manner
pe·rus·al noun
pe·rus·er noun


  1. He perused the newspaper over breakfast.
  2. <perused the manuscript, checking for grammatical errors>
 

Jun2u

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To All

In understanding God’s teachings in any part of the Bible, we know we have not arrived at a satisfactory conclusion until every phrase of the passage in question can be understood. In other words, while it may be readily possible to find a solution that aligns with a few of the key phrases in a passage, we can know that our conclusion is still pos-sibly unsatisfactory if it does not harmonize with all the phrases of the passage.

Moreover, a further test must be applied. Our conclusion must harmonize with the other teachings of the Bible that relate in any way to the passage in question. We will suggest a solution to the 70 weeks which we believe meets the above criteria. Every phrase in these verses finds its logical place within this solution. The solution as a whole agrees with everything else the Bible offers insofar as the nature of God’s salvation program is concerned, including the coming of Christ.

A most serious problem in interpreting this passage is to discover the meaning of the words of Daniel 9:25:
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore
and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore
and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The event of the setting forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem appears to be the beginning of the 70 weeks or sevens. In order to obtain any light from the rest of the passage it does appear that we must determine when this commandment was given.

Most Bible students, theologians, and writers of commentaries understand the language of restoring and building Jerusalem to refer to a physical rebuilding of the literal city of Jerusalem. However, as we shall see, this kind of understanding is not required by the Bible, nor is it possible to find a solution to the 70 weeks by this means. We shall discover that the key to the 70 weeks is to understand that the Bible frequently uses Jerusalem as a figure or type of Christ’s body of believers. The command to restore and to rebuild, therefore, will be found to mean that the Word of God was proclaimed so that believers could come into the Kingdom of God. We shall develop this as we go along.

Is Nehemiah a Candidate?

One of the most commonly accepted beginning points for the 70 weeks is the year 445 B.C., when Nehemiah, who was the cup bearer for the Persian King Artaxerxes, asked the king for permission to go to Jerusalem to rebuild the walls. In a period of 52 days, he did indeed rebuild the walls of Jerusalem.

Nehemiah, however, is not a possible answer to our question of when the 70 sevens began. First of all, while King Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah permission to build the walls, he did not command the re- building of the walls. Moreover, nowhere do we read that God gave such a command either to the Persian king or to Nehemiah. Therefore, Nehemiah cannot be related to Daniel 9:25, where God states that a command was given. Furthermore, no matter how we try, we cannot go through the 70 sevens from a time standpoint and arrive at anything that properly relates to the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is one solution, beginning with Nehemiah, that has been suggested; namely, that we take all the days between 445 B.C. and A.D. 32, assuming 365¼ days in a year, and then divide this product by 360 days. By following this computation, we get exactly 69 sevens, or 483 years of 360 days, from 445 B.C. to A.D. 32. One can read about this in almost any study on the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. While this solution may seem interesting and intriguing, it does not appear at all valid. There is no place in the Bible where this kind of computation, wherein time is first calculated on the basis of 365¼ days in a year and then divided by 360 days, is utilized. Therefore, we have no Biblical authority for it.

Christ was Crucified in A.D. 33

Moreover, Christ was not crucified in A.D. 32. We know from the Bible that He was crucified in A.D. 33. In Luke 3:1, as God describes the preaching of John the Baptist at the time Jesus was baptized, we read:

Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being
governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip
tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of
Abilene
. . .
This piece of information give us an historical time clue. We know from very accurate secular records that Tiberius Caesar began to reign alone in the year A.D. 14. His fifteenth year, therefore, was A.D. 29. We also know from carefully reading the Gospel of John, that Jesus actually preached for about 3½ years. Since He was crucified at the Passover, which was observed in the spring of the year, His baptism would have been in the fall of a previous year. Thus, 3½ years following A.D. 29 brings us to A.D. 33, when He was crucified.

Furthermore, because of the moon phases which governed the timing of the Jewish feasts, the year A.D. 32 could not possibly have been the year He was crucified. The timing of the Passover Feast was related to the full moon. Only A.D. 30 or A.D. 33 were possible years that would agree with the timing of the Passover observed at the time Jesus was crucified. Therefore, the Biblical evidence appears to point to the year A.D. 33 as the year that Christ was crucified. When we understand the 70 sevens of Daniel 9, we will see that it also shows us that A.D. 33 was the year of His crucifixion. For all of the foregoing reasons, therefore, we must reject Nehemiah’s activity in Jerusalem as being a solution to our problem.

Is King Cyrus a Possibility?

A second solution has been suggested by some. While it appears to be attractive in some ways, it, too, will not meet all the criteria demanded by Daniel 9. This solution involves a predecessor of Artaxerxes, a king named Cyrus, who defeated Babylon in 539 B.C. We read about him in II Chronicles 36:22-23:

Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken
by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit
of Cyrus king of Persia, that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom,
and put it also in writing, saying, Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, All the kingdoms
of the earth hath the LORD God of heaven given me; and he hath charged me to
build him an house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah. Who is there among you of all
his people? The LORD his God be with him, and let him go up.

Indeed, in 537 B.C., about 50,000 Israelites who had been captives in the land of Persia, as a result of the command given by God to Cyrus to rebuild His house in Jerusalem, did return to Jerusalem; and they did lay the foundation of the temple. Significantly, this activity of Cyrus was predicted almost 200 years earlier by Isaiah, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, when he declared in Isaiah 44:28:

That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to
Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Thus, we see that Cyrus meets two qualifications demanded by Daniel 9:25; namely, that the command was of the Lord and that the command concerned itself with the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, there is one fatal flaw to his candidacy being considered the beginning of the 70 weeks. There is no possible way to relate the year 537 B.C., on a 70-week basis, to the Lord Jesus, who was baptized in the year A.D. 29 and crucified in the year A.D. 33. Thus, Cyrus, as well as Nehemiah, must be reluctantly set aside as a solution to Daniel 9:24-27.

Ezra Returns to Jerusalem

Now we must consider a third possibility, which, we shall see, meets all the requirements of Daniel 9. This solution relates to the return of Ezra to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes. This was the year 458 B.C., at which time Ezra returned to Jerusalem to reestablish the law. While preaching the Word of God or teaching the law of God seem quite unrelated to building a city, we will see that the Bible does show us an intimate relationship between these two activities. Therefore, we should examine the Scriptures to show that a command to reestablish the law was indeed equivalent to a command to build Jerusalem.

Let us look at Cyrus again. As we study the language concern- ing him, we will begin to see the close relationship that exists between the physical building of Jerusalem and the sending forth of the Gos- pel. While he was commanded to build Jerusalem and lay the foundation of the temple, the prophecy of Isaiah 44:28 quoted above speaks of Cyrus as God’s shepherd. King Cyrus was not a shepherd. He was a king. When the Bible speaks of a shepherd, we immediately think of the Lord Jesus Christ, who was the Good Shepherd. While God uses the name Cyrus in Isaiah 44 and 45, and while in a physical sense the prophecy of Isaiah concerning Cyrus was fulfilled when the foundation of the temple was laid about 537 B.C., in another sense the language is pointing altogether to the Lord Jesus Christ. God uses Cyrus as a type of figure of Christ. Even as Cyrus, the king of the Persians, destroyed Babylon in 539 B.C., so Christ, typified by Cyrus, destroyed the kingdom of Satan by going to the cross. We know, of course, from passages such as Revelation 18, that the kingdom of Satan is typified by Babylon. Cyrus was commanded by God to build a literal house of God, and Christ was commanded by God to build a spiritual house. The temple and the city that Christ came to build is His body. This can be seen in Isaiah 45:13, where God, in speaking of Cyrus, declares:

I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build
my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD
of hosts

. He goes on in verse 17:

Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be
ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Thus, God is equating the building of a city with salvation, which is everlasting. Therefore, when God speaks in the Book of Isaiah about Cyrus building a city and a temple, in its spiritual fulfillment, God has in mind the Lord Jesus Christ, who builds Christ’s body

The Body of Christ: A Temple and A City

The concept that the temple of God and Jerusalem are figures of the body of Christ is amply seen in the Bible. For example, God speaks of Israel and the fact that peoples from the world will come to build its walls, and says in Isaiah 60:14: “they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.” In Isaiah 62:12, we read:

And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou
shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.”

In both of these passages, God equates Israel with a city. In the New Testament, we see the same truth as God uses the word Jerusalem. In Revelation 21, God presents the picture of the bride of Christ coming down out of heaven. The bride is called the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. The bride of Christ is a people, the people who are the body of Christ. The bride cannot be a physical city, and yet it is portrayed in Revelation 21 as a city with foundations, gates, and a wall. In the New Testament, God speaks about building walls and building the ruins and doing so in the context of sending forth the Gospel. For example, Acts 15 gives an account of the leaders of the New Testament church puzzling about and wondering what to do with the Gentiles who were coming into the body of Christ, so they held a council in Jerusalem to discuss the problem. Finally, James stood up to speak about the phenomenon of the Gentiles coming in. He said in verses 15-17:

And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is writ- ten, After this I will
return, and will build again the tab- ernacle of David, which is fallen down;
and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue
of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name
is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

James saw that the inclusion of Gentiles in the body of Christ was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies about the rebuilding of the walls and the ruins of Jerusalem. In other words, bringing the Gospel is an effort to build the city of Jerusalem. The same figure is used in Ephesians 2, which speaks of the believers as building blocks in the temple of God. We are not a physical temple, of course, but we read about the body of Christ in Ephesians 2:20-22:

And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself
being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth
unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an
habitation of God through the Spirit.

God also speaks of believers as lively stones in the house of God in I Peter 2:4. In the Bible, God distinctly uses the figures of Jerusalem and the temple to refer to the body of believers. I believe that this is the clue with which we can break open, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the 70 sevens of Daniel 9. This is the key to the correct solu- tion of these 70 weeks.

Unfortunately, most theologians get tangled up looking for a command to rebuild a literal city. So often, in relation to salvation and in relation to God’s salvation program, we keep our eyes on this sin-cursed world, and we never look beyond. We never look at the true nature of salvation. Salvation is concerned with something far more precious and exciting than this sin-cursed world. Salvation has to do with the people of God; salvation is eternal in character. When we understand that Daniel 9:25, where God speaks about rebuilding Jerusalem, relates to bringing the Gospel, then the 70 sevens can be understood in every detail.

Ezra’s Bringing the Law Equals Building the City

Returning to Ezra, you will recall that in the year 458 B.C., Ezra was commanded by King Artaxerxes to reestablish the law in Jerusalem. We read of Artaxerxes in:

Ezra 7:12-13: Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law
of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time. I make a decree, that
all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which
are minded of their own freewill to go up toJerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:23: Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be diligently
done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath against
the realm of the king and his sons?

Ezra 7:10 tells us: “For Ezra had prepared his heart to seek the law of the LORD,
and to do it, and to teach in Israel statutes and judgments.”

To reestablish the law is the equivalent of bringing the Gospel, and bringing the Gospel is the equivalent of building the city, as we have just seen. Therefore, God, through the king, had effectively given a command to Ezra to rebuild the city. This command agrees with the statement of Daniel 9:25, which places the beginning of the 70 weeks at the time when the command was given to rebuild the city. Therefore, we are on very safe Biblical ground to begin the 70 weeks at the year 458 B.C., when Ezra was given the command to reestablish the law in Jerusalem.

In fact, Ezra, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, relates the teaching of the law to a literal building activity. Ezra 7:10 indicates that Ezra, the priest of God, was first concerned with teaching the law of God, but in Ezra 9:9, in a prayer concerning the command of God through King Artaxerxes, Ezra uses language that relates to normal building activity.

Ezra 9:9: For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but
hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to
set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a
wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.

From this verse, we see that God’s command to King Artaxerxes to send Ezra to reestablish the law, in the year 458 B.C., meets all the requirements of Daniel 9:25, where it speaks of a command going forth to restore and build Jerusalem. We read in Daniel 9:24:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We have learned that the holy city actually refers to the people of God, but to what do the other phrases in this verse refer, and when do they find fulfillment?
An Exact Path is Found to Satisfy Daniel 9:24
By answering the question as to when the phrases of Daniel 9:24 find fulfillment, we will also discover to what they refer. When did God demonstrate the finishing of the transgression on behalf of those who are being saved? When did He demonstrate making an end of our sins? When did He demonstrate making reconciliation for iniquity? Immediately you might say, “Why, it was at the cross, of course. Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate how before the foundation of the world He paid for our sins. This verse is speaking of the cross.” Yes, indeed, this verse is pointing to the cross. At the cross, Christ demonstrated how He made reconciliation for iniquity. He demonstrated how He made an end of our sins. He demonstrated how He suffered under the judgment of God in order that we might be saved. Does the timing of the crucifixion of Christ in A.D. 33 re-late to 458 B.C.? Indeed it does! From 458 B.C., when Ezra was mandated by King Artaxerxes I to go to Jerusalem to reestablish the law (that is, to bring the Gospel or to build the spiritual city), to A.D. 33, when Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate making atonement for sins, is precisely 490 years. Let us see how this computation works out.

In going from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we must add the Old Testament years to the New Testament years. From this sum, we must subtract 1 to get the actual number of years be- tween the two events, one of which took place in the Old Testament and the other in the New Testament. This is because there is no year 0.

Ezra to the Cross Equals Seventy Weeks

Ezra went to Jerusalem to build a city, that is, to reestablish the law, in the year 458 B.C. Christ hung on the cross in A.D. 33. If we add 458 to 33, the sum is 491. Subtract 1 from 491, and we have 490 actual years from the going forth of the command to rebuild the city to the time of the cross when Christ demonstrated he He brought in everlasting righteousness, when He made reconciliation for iniq- uity, when He finished the transgression. God put His seal on the vision and prophecy at the cross. And 490 years equals 70 weeks; that is, 70 x 7 = 490. Immediately we see the precise fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-25. The phrase “seal up [or seal] the vision and prophecy [or prophet]” can be understood to mean that when Christ hung on the cross, God demonstrated how He put His seal on the whole program of salvation and upon Christ as the Savior. It was the official declara- tion that God’s salvation program was absolutely certain. The phrase “anoint the most Holy” points to the cross, at which time Christ es- tablished His Kingship. The “most Holy” identifies with the “holy of holies.” Inasmuch as Christ is the sanctuary (John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”), He is the one who is anointed in the sense that He is officially our King, as well as Everlast- ing Prophet and High Priest. Four hundred and ninety years equal 70 sevens, as called for in Daniel 9:24. Therefore, we see a direct path from 458 B.C., when Ezra was commanded to reestablish the law, that is, to rebuild the city, until Christ hung on the cross. Thus, we have discovered one certain solution to the 70 weeks of Daniel 9. That is only part of the prophecy, and in the next chapter, we will see that God has laid out another path which also goes from the time of the command to Ezra to reestablish the law to the time of the coming of Christ.

WE WILL SEE THAT THE OTHER PATH IN DANIEL 9 BRINGS US TO THE END OF TIME, WHEN CHRIST COMES AGAIN!

To God Be The Glory
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,


Once again, if you've made ONE mistake, then EVERYTHING you do or say is FALSE. -- Is this how you judge others AND YOURSELF?
Thank you for your repsonse again!

I questioned one of my most esteemed ancient language profs. long ago, ie, "Why do you never admit error when a student once in a great while in light of IITim.3:16 reveals where you're mistaken?" Never will forget his response as I heartfully realized and actually learned something valuable. His response: "If the students see I could be wrong in one interpretation of Scripture, then it follows that I could be wrong in other Scriptures."

Let me never carry the burden of always having to be that correct, and absolutely be refutable at any point, eg, Mr. Newton's rejection of the Trinity for starters is error in the essentials thus forever not good, eg, Jesus had to carry the sins of the world as both God and man otherwise He didn't succeed.

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Old Jack[/SIZE]





"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."


Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


This TRUTH stands, -- just as Scripture stands --, independent of the presenter. Please do not impugn the TRUTH because you have an hidden agenda.
Secondly, if you wish to discount Newton's observation, then please provide ONE citation where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.



Blue Letter Bible
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Dan&c=12&t=KJV#s=t_conc_862004

But,thou, O Daniel, h1840 Daniye'l
shut up h1840 catham
the words, h1697 dabar
and seal h2856 chatham
the book, h5612 cepher
even to the time h6256 `eth
of the end: h7093 qets
many h7227 rab
shall run to and fro h7751 shuwt
and knowledge h1847 da`ath
shall be increased h7235 rabah


... how in the world do you defend your purported "context"? Are you perchance a Mennonite, where you only use a horse and buggy? Most people use air travel.

And what of Moore's Law? When in world history has knowledge doubled roughly every two years?!? Or once again, do you use a piece of charcoal and the back of a shovel? Most people have computers.



With Best Regards,
DD



PS You might wish to consider that "peruse" means BOTH a casual and a an intensive evaluation:

pe·ruse
verb \pə-ˈrüz\

: to look at or read (something) in an informal or relaxed way
: to examine or read (something) in a very careful way




1.a : to examine or consider with attention and in detail : study

b : to look over or through in a casual or cursory manner


2
: read; especially : to read over in an attentive or leisurely manner
pe·rus·al noun
pe·rus·er noun


  1. He perused the newspaper over breakfast.
  2. <perused the manuscript, checking for grammatical errors>
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
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Hi shturt678,

shturt678 said:
"If the students see I could be wrong in one interpretation of Scripture, then it follows that I could be wrong in other Scriptures."
An excellent response to LIFE in general. For Scripture says to judge the prophets:

1 Cor 14:29
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged ...


Thus:
"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html



And as GOD also says:


Isaiah 1:18

18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord ...



So once again, can you cite ANY society or Scripture where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax? Or did you dismiss both Newton and Scripture?

Daniel 9 (RSV)
25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off ...




Per the above, I would advise you to assert your doctrines responsibly:

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all make many mistakes,

... for you will stand before GOD without excuse.




With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,


An excellent response to LIFE in general. For Scripture says to judge the prophets:

1 Cor 14:29
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged ...


Thus:
"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html



And as GOD also says:


Isaiah 1:18

18 “Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord ...



So once again, can you cite ANY society or Scripture where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax? Or did you dismiss both Newton and Scripture?

Daniel 9 (RSV)
25 Know therefore and understand: from the time that the word went out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the time of an anointed prince, there shall be seven weeks; and for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with streets and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 After the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off ...




Per the above, I would advise you to assert your doctrines responsibly:

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness. 2 For we all make many mistakes,

... for you will stand before GOD without excuse.




With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you again for your response and caring!

btw one of the forever benefits that I have being the antithesis of any Biblical scholar of today, our Lord doesn't expect that much out of me regarding my opinions or conjectures.

Let's rationally take another look at the concepts we're dealing with, eg, the number "7" symbolical meaning: As Jesus was united with the divine, God, at conception, so the number "3" God's number united with men, man's number "4" = "7" noting you are good at math. Simply God's redounding man's salvation = "7".

Dan.9:25, "...seven heptads.....And for sixty-two heptads..." Let's eliminate the spurious right from the git go, eg, "...seven weeks.....And for sixty-two weeks..." Heptad = general season of divine activity. Agape that separating, again, "Seven heptads" with the clause to mark the duration of the first major period, and "sixty-two heptads" with the next clause to mark off the second major period. Ergo never did take the former as one number, and doubt ever will.

Again, contextually with v.24, the first seven heptads come to a culmination in one who is designated as "An Anointed One, a Prince," ie, the Godman Lord Jesus Christ's 1st Coming.

Old Jack's bottom of the heap's opinion only.

btw appreciate you and your words sir.
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
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Hi shturt678,

shturt678 said:
the number "7" symbolical meaning:
Re:
"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


The question was and remains:

please provide ONE citation where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.



Lacking a DIRECT response to a DIRECT question, I can only presume that you are a lawyer. Please be a Christian.



With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,


Re:
"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html


The question was and remains:

please provide ONE citation where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.



Lacking a DIRECT response to a DIRECT question, I can only presume that you are a lawyer. Please be a Christian.



With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your response again!

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Long ago I was of a much higher paygrade; however it wasn't the fall that hurt, it was that sudden stop after falling eating that last painful humble pie no longer not wanting to offend our Lord Godman Jesus Christ anymore.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.399999618530273px]Old lowest paygrade Jack[/SIZE]
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
541
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Hi shurt678,


Newton make a valid point regarding Daniel 9:25:

DaDad said:
Re:
"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html

... then you slander Newton:

shturt678 said:
.... all due to Mr. Newton not understanding the ancient languages, and interpreting going from the ancient languages forward to the English like I stated before.


...and when challenged:


DaDad said:
The question was and remains:

please provide ONE citation where numbers are summed typical of a hammer costing $3 plus $18 plus tax.



Lacking a DIRECT response to a DIRECT question, I can only presume that you are a lawyer. Please be a Christian.

... you feign humility, and excuse yourself from the discussion:

shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response again!

[SIZE=14.4px]Long ago I was of a much higher paygrade; however it wasn't the fall that hurt, it was that sudden stop after falling eating that last painful humble pie no longer not wanting to offend our Lord Godman Jesus Christ anymore.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14.4px]Old lowest paygrade Jack[/SIZE]



This type of behavior is NOT of Christ. However, there is one who is as such. Perhaps it is he that you are intent on pleasing.




With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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South Point, Hawaii (Big Island)
DaDad said:
Hi shurt678,


Newton make a valid point regarding Daniel 9:25:



... then you slander Newton:




...and when challenged:




... you feign humility, and excuse yourself from the discussion:





This type of behavior is NOT of Christ. However, there is one who is as such. Perhaps it is he that you are intent on pleasing.




With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you again for your response!

Making a false statement damaging Mr. Newton's reputation or making a statement regarding Jn.8:51, "...If anyone shall guard my word, death he shall not at all see forever"? Might as well pull in IITim.3:16 also. Mr. Newton is not a Trinitarian and I am, ie, we agree to disagree, ie, no slander here?

Old flatter Jack
 

Jun2u

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Where are the commentators to this thread? Why do you still reason together as if you understand the subject matter that is before you?

Has anyone read my post #50? It has been posted three days and no one has made a comment. Are you afraid that you might actually learn something about the things of God, specially in how to discern and find the solution (biblical) to the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9?

Go ahead, read it and then correct me (by scripture references only) if you think the solution entered to one of the most intriguing passages in the Bible, was not faithful to the word of God.

Has anyone interpreted Scripture by comparing spiritual things with spiritual as we are told by God to do?

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Brakelite

Your date of the beginning of the 70 Weeks is incorrect in that your premise is wrong.

Where is the author of this OP?

To God Be The Glory
 

Jun2u

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Most of the Comemntators I accessed strongly feel Dan.9:24, the symbolical "70 weeks" describes the time from the days of Daniel unto the end of time.

Old signified Jack
From post #50

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We have learned that the holy city actually refers to the people of God, but to what do the other phrases in this verse refer, and when do they find fulfillment?

An Exact Path is Found to Satisfy Daniel 9:24

By answering the question as to when the phrases of Daniel 9:24 find fulfillment, we will also discover to what they refer. When did God demonstrate the finishing of the transgression on behalf of those who are being saved? When did He demonstrate making an end of our sins? When did He demonstrate making reconciliation for iniquity? Immediately you might say, “Why, it was at the cross, of course. Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate how before the foundation of the world He paid for our sins. This verse is speaking of the cross.” Yes, indeed, this verse is pointing to the cross. At the cross, Christ demonstrated how He made reconciliation for iniquity. He demonstrated how He made an end of our sins. He demonstrated how He suffered under the judgment of God in order that we might be saved. Does the timing of the crucifixion of Christ in A.D. 33 re-late to 458 B.C.? Indeed it does! From 458 B.C., when Ezra was mandated by King Artaxerxes I to go to Jerusalem to reestablish the law (that is, to bring the Gospel or to build the spiritual city), to A.D. 33, when Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate making atonement for sins, is precisely 490 years. Let us see how this computation works out.

In going from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we must add the Old Testament years to the New Testament years. From this sum, we must subtract 1 to get the actual number of years be- tween the two events, one of which took place in the Old Testament and the other in the New Testament. This is because there is no year 0.

Ezra to the Cross Equals Seventy Weeks

Ezra went to Jerusalem to build a city, that is, to reestablish the law, in the year 458 B.C. Christ hung on the cross in A.D. 33. If we add 458 to 33, the sum is 491. Subtract 1 from 491, and we have 490 actual years from the going forth of the command to rebuild the city to the time of the cross when Christ demonstrated he He brought in everlasting righteousness, when He made reconciliation for iniquity, when He finished the transgression. God put His seal on the vision and prophecy at the cross. And 490 years equals 70 weeks; that is, 70 x 7 = 490. Immediately we see the precise fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-25. The phrase “seal up [or seal] the vision and prophecy [or prophet]” can be understood to mean that when Christ hung on the cross, God demonstrated how He put His seal on the whole program of salvation and upon Christ as the Savior. It was the official declaration that God’s salvation program was absolutely certain. The phrase “anoint the most Holy” points to the cross, at which time Christ established His Kingship. The “most Holy” identifies with the “holy of holies.” Inasmuch as Christ is the sanctuary (John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”), He is the one who is anointed in the sense that He is officially our King, as well as Everlast- ing Prophet and High Priest. Four hundred and ninety years equal 70 sevens, as called for in Daniel 9:24. Therefore, we see a direct path from 458 B.C., when Ezra was commanded to reestablish the law, that is, to rebuild the city, until Christ hung on the cross.

Symbolic? I don't think so.

To God Be The Glory