The Cleansing of the Sanctuary & The 70 Weeks of Daniel

[brakelite]

Jun2u, I agree that he 70 weeks are literal years based on the day/year principle; 490 years. I would take issue however with one thing that I notice yopu disagree with me on; the toming of the crucifixion.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Jesus confirmed the covenant with Israel for one week, or 7 years, and in the midst of that week died on the cross thus putting away any significance to the sacrifice and the oblation. The first 3 and 1/2 years He ministered in person, the second 3and 1/2 years through His apostles. They wre instructed to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. This they did, and only very rarely was a Gentile offered the gospel. But as in the OT so in the new, Gentiles genuinely seeking truth were accomodated, eg the Ethioppian that Philip ministered to, and the centurian Peter visited. But generally, the Gentiles were ignored untip after the stoning of Steven and the dispersement of Christians at that time when the Jews began to persecute with greater intensity. And it was shortly after the stoning of Steven that Paul was converted and turned to the Gentiles full time after being rejected by the Jews. Thus we have the final week fulfilled, and the prophecy re the 70 weeks completed.

Also, the years of Artaxerxes' reign are among the most easily established dates of history. The Canon of Ptolemy, with its list of kings and astronomical observations, the Greek Olympiads, and allusions in Greek history to Persian affairs all combine to place the seventh year of Artaxerxes at 457 B.C. beyond any reasonable debate.. See Sir Isaac Newton, Observations Upon the Prophecies of Daniel, pp. 154-157

 

[Raeneske]

Where are the commentators to this thread? Why do you still reason together as if you understand the subject matter that is before you?

Has anyone read my post #50? It has been posted three days and no one has made a comment. Are you afraid that you might actually learn something about the things of God, specially in how to discern and find the solution (biblical) to the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9?

Go ahead, read it and then correct me (by scripture references only) if you think the solution entered to one of the most intriguing passages in the Bible, was not faithful to the word of God.

Has anyone interpreted Scripture by comparing spiritual things with spiritual as we are told by God to do?

1Co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Brakelite

Your date of the beginning of the 70 Weeks is incorrect in that your premise is wrong.

Where is the author of this OP?

To God Be The Glory

Right here. Hello Jun2u

The time given of 458 BC is incorrect. It is really close though. The correct year is 457 BC. If we jump ahead 69 weeks, or 483 years, we see that then the Messiah appears.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

If we subtract 483 from 457, we come out to -26. However, because there is a phantom "0" year that we have to contend with, we must add one more to 483, because 0 takes up one year. Thus, we would come out to -27. In 27 AD, Jesus was Baptized.

Christ did NOT die in 33 AD, but Christ died in the midst of the final week of Daniel.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ died in 31 AD. This then leaves 3 1/2 more years left, which ended in 34 AD. In 34 AD the Jews sealed their rejection of the gospel message by stoning Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

 

[shturt678]

From post #50

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

We have learned that the holy city actually refers to the people of God, but to what do the other phrases in this verse refer, and when do they find fulfillment?

An Exact Path is Found to Satisfy Daniel 9:24

By answering the question as to when the phrases of Daniel 9:24 find fulfillment, we will also discover to what they refer. When did God demonstrate the finishing of the transgression on behalf of those who are being saved? When did He demonstrate making an end of our sins? When did He demonstrate making reconciliation for iniquity? Immediately you might say, “Why, it was at the cross, of course. Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate how before the foundation of the world He paid for our sins. This verse is speaking of the cross.” Yes, indeed, this verse is pointing to the cross. At the cross, Christ demonstrated how He made reconciliation for iniquity. He demonstrated how He made an end of our sins. He demonstrated how He suffered under the judgment of God in order that we might be saved. Does the timing of the crucifixion of Christ in A.D. 33 re-late to 458 B.C.? Indeed it does! From 458 B.C., when Ezra was mandated by King Artaxerxes I to go to Jerusalem to reestablish the law (that is, to bring the Gospel or to build the spiritual city), to A.D. 33, when Christ hung on the cross to demonstrate making atonement for sins, is precisely 490 years. Let us see how this computation works out.

In going from the Old Testament to the New Testament, we must add the Old Testament years to the New Testament years. From this sum, we must subtract 1 to get the actual number of years be- tween the two events, one of which took place in the Old Testament and the other in the New Testament. This is because there is no year 0.

Ezra to the Cross Equals Seventy Weeks

Ezra went to Jerusalem to build a city, that is, to reestablish the law, in the year 458 B.C. Christ hung on the cross in A.D. 33. If we add 458 to 33, the sum is 491. Subtract 1 from 491, and we have 490 actual years from the going forth of the command to rebuild the city to the time of the cross when Christ demonstrated he He brought in everlasting righteousness, when He made reconciliation for iniquity, when He finished the transgression. God put His seal on the vision and prophecy at the cross. And 490 years equals 70 weeks; that is, 70 x 7 = 490. Immediately we see the precise fulfillment of Daniel 9:24-25. The phrase “seal up [or seal] the vision and prophecy [or prophet]” can be understood to mean that when Christ hung on the cross, God demonstrated how He put His seal on the whole program of salvation and upon Christ as the Savior. It was the official declaration that God’s salvation program was absolutely certain. The phrase “anoint the most Holy” points to the cross, at which time Christ established His Kingship. The “most Holy” identifies with the “holy of holies.” Inasmuch as Christ is the sanctuary (John 2:19: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up”), He is the one who is anointed in the sense that He is officially our King, as well as Everlast- ing Prophet and High Priest. Four hundred and ninety years equal 70 sevens, as called for in Daniel 9:24. Therefore, we see a direct path from 458 B.C., when Ezra was commanded to reestablish the law, that is, to rebuild the city, until Christ hung on the cross.

Symbolic? I don't think so.

To God Be The Glory

Thank you for your response!

Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptands are determined over thy people and over thy holy city...." The "seventy heptads" symbolically is designed to describe all future time from thne days of Daniel unto the end of time, the time fixed in God's councils for perfectly achieving His holy work as 7x7x10 suggests symbolically - God's program for all ages. "7" = God's number "3" working with men "4" redounding their salvation. "10" = complete perfection, ie, symbolism.

Obviously "to restrain the transgression...and to make atonement (reconciliation) for iniquity" = Jesus' 1st Coming.

"to bring everlasting rigtheousness....and to anoint the Most Holy." = Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Old Jack

 

[Raeneske]

Thank you for your response!

Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptands are determined over thy people and over thy holy city...." The "seventy heptads" symbolically is designed to describe all future time from thne days of Daniel unto the end of time, the time fixed in God's councils for perfectly achieving His holy work as 7x7x10 suggests symbolically - God's program for all ages. "7" = God's number "3" working with men "4" redounding their salvation. "10" = complete perfection, ie, symbolism.

Obviously "to restrain the transgression...and to make atonement (reconciliation) for iniquity" = Jesus' 1st Coming.

"to bring everlasting rigtheousness....and to anoint the Most Holy." = Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Old Jack

Hell Old Jack

It is not possible for the "seventy heptads" to be symbolical, for they are cut out of a literal time frame.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

This literal time frame is the 2300 days prophecy. Daniel is being called to consider "the vision". What vision? The one in the previous chapter, where Gabriel first appeared to him, the one where it is said that "none understood it".

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Thus 70 weeks are cut off, that is, marked out, from the 2300 days prophecy.

 

[shturt678]

Hell Old Jack

It is not possible for the "seventy heptads" to be symbolical, for they are cut out of a literal time frame.

Daniel 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.


This literal time frame is the 2300 days prophecy. Daniel is being called to consider "the vision". What vision? The one in the previous chapter, where Gabriel first appeared to him, the one where it is said that "none understood it".

Possibly the 70 may or may not be "symbolical," however the 2300 is symbolical without a doubt. FULL PERIOD OF DIVINE JUDGMENT.

Daniel 8:27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Thus 70 weeks are cut off, that is, marked out, from the 2300 days prophecy.

Old signified Jack, ie, aka, Jackster

 

[Raeneske]

Possibly the 70 may or may not be "symbolical," however the 2300 is symbolical without a doubt. FULL PERIOD OF DIVINE JUDGMENT.



Old signified Jack, ie, aka, Jackster

Hello Jack,

No, the 2300 years are not symbolical either. The 70 weeks were cut off from the 2300 days. The 70 weeks are part of the 2300 day prophecy. It was the first part 70 weeks of the prophecy. The 70 weeks were not literal and then the rest of the 2300 days symbolic. They are both a literal time frame.

 

[shturt678]

Hello Jack,

No, the 2300 years are not symbolical either. The 70 weeks were cut off from the 2300 days. The 70 weeks are part of the 2300 day prophecy. It was the first part 70 weeks of the prophecy. The 70 weeks were not literal and then the rest of the 2300 days symbolic. They are both a literal time frame.

Thank you for your response and caring!

Great, you also have an agape for Daniel! Dan.8:14 contains one of the major cruxes of the whole book. Long ago I seen that construing Dan.8:14 with v.17 narrows down the diverse interpretations. The angel said "...Unto 2,300 evenings-mornings: then shall the sanctuarty come into its right." The "2,300" = 1,150 days, correct? Historically speakijng the very fact that neither the logner period of almost 7 years nor the shorter of almost 3.5 can be made to tally with known historical facts should serfve to cause interpreters to cease continuing along this line. An entirely satisfactory exact arithmetical calculation has neither been found here, nor for the kndred periods in chapters 9 and 12 in Daniel.

This signified (symboical) number "2,300" is being characterized as the period of divine judgment, ie, not a full period. The fact that it's expressed in days reminds the troubled Israelites that the Lord will not let this period extend a day beyond what they can bear - I agree wtih Keil's explanation and not so much with Montgomery's where this last paragraph was summarized from.

When these days or the period that is not even a full period of divine judgment shall have comed to an end, "then shall the sanctuary come into its right."

Construed with Dan.8:17, we know the "end" is referred to as the absolute "end." Ie, a type back then for us today symbolically.

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

Your responses are not making sense?
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

Your responses are not making sense?
Floyd.

Brother Floyd, thank you again for your response!

I thought that I bridged the gap coherently, however obviously didn't. The 2300 are obviously viewed as symbolic, correct?

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

Brother Floyd, thank you again for your response!

I thought that I bridged the gap coherently, however obviously didn't. The 2300 are obviously viewed as symbolic, correct?

Old Jack

No; you are not "bridging" any gaps; you are opposing the truth!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

No; you are not "bridging" any gaps; you are opposing the truth!
Floyd.

Thank you again for your response and caring!

Great! We're working together to see how I'm opposing the 'truth' my brother. Let's be a little more specific using a difficult passage to reveal this oppostion, ie, Dan.8:14, 2,300 evenings-mornings;" A literal period of 2300 or 1,150 days? Or more symbolic? The literal view offer grave difficulties thus construe with Dan.8:17, referring to the time near the absolute end resulting in a symbolical 2,300.

Now let's construe with Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptads" which refers from the time of Daniel to the end of time thus wouldn't the symbolical 2,300 years be a part within Dan.9:24?

Old Jack, now my brother is the time where you can be a little more specific where the opposition is?

 

[Floyd]

Thank you again for your response and caring!

Great! We're working together to see how I'm opposing the 'truth' my brother. Let's be a little more specific using a difficult passage to reveal this oppostion, ie, Dan.8:14, 2,300 evenings-mornings;" A literal period of 2300 or 1,150 days? Or more symbolic? The literal view offer grave difficulties thus construe with Dan.8:17, referring to the time near the absolute end resulting in a symbolical 2,300.

Now let's construe with Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptads" which refers from the time of Daniel to the end of time thus wouldn't the symbolical 2,300 years be a part within Dan.9:24?

Old Jack, now my brother is the time where you can be a little more specific where the opposition is?

Where time is given in days for the Jewish prophecies; it always means times of trouble.
That is fully acknowledged by scholars.
In the case of Dan.8:14, the days relate to the "cleansing of the sanctuary"; and are not symbolic. This is the latter end of "Jacob's Trouble". Again not symbolic.
Dan.9:24 refers to the 490 years prophecy given to Daniel; of which 7 years are left.
When the 7 years are completed; Christ will return to earth in "Power and great Glory", to complete His Mission during 1000years of His Reign with "His and His Fathers Name One".

Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

Where time is given in days for the Jewish prophecies; it always means times of trouble.

One of the few times we can agree to agree, however I'm the antithesis of any scholar for sure.

Where we have to agree to disagree: Dan.8:14 If numbers such as 7, 10, 12, 40, and 70 and other numbers are contextually symbolic, and viewing the 2,300 as an historical-chronological perod of time may not be a symbolic number, but must receive a contextual symbolical meaning for sure. If I recall the (no scholar in the least for sure) Hebrew thinking of longer periods of time, they are usually reckoned not by days, but by weeks, months, or years.



That is fully acknowledged by scholars.
In the case of Dan.8:14, the days relate to the "cleansing of the sanctuary"; and are not symbolic. This is the latter end of "Jacob's Trouble". Again not symbolic.
Dan.9:24 refers to the 490 years prophecy given to Daniel; of which 7 years are left.
When the 7 years are completed; Christ will return to earth in "Power and great Glory", to complete His Mission during 1000years of His Reign with "His and His Fathers Name One".

Floyd

Hey, we finally agree to agree on something,

Old Jack.

 

[Floyd]

Quote

That is fully acknowledged by scholars.
In the case of Dan.8:14, the days relate to the "cleansing of the sanctuary"; and are not symbolic. This is the latter end of "Jacob's Trouble". Again not symbolic.
Dan.9:24 refers to the 490 years prophecy given to Daniel; of which 7 years are left.
When the 7 years are completed; Christ will return to earth in "Power and great Glory", to complete His Mission during 1000years of His Reign with "His and His Fathers Name One".

Floyd

Hey, we finally agree to agree on something,

Old Jack.

I am surprised and overwhelmed Jack!
Floyd.

 

[Cooter]

Daniel prophesied in his day the major coming events of the next 600 years starting from his day and projecting out to 70AD - the destruction and the scattering of the "Holy People." In his writings he uses the phrase "Abomination of Desolation" three times and each for a different importent historical event. The past fulfillment of each is as follows...

1. The AoD of 8:9 was fulfilled with the invasion of Antiochus in 167BC.
2. The second historical AoD was in reference to the trial of Jesus.
3. The third AoD was about the takeover of the Temple in 66AD by the Terrorists.

Daniel's 2,300 days has absolutely nothing to do with the 70 weeks. These two prophesies were to two different groups of people in two completely different periods of time within that 600 year period of time..

Daniel 8:13-14 (NIV2011)
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the LORD’s people?”14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then (afterward) the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”

How long would it take for the vision to be fulfilled? 2,300 evenings and mornings (two tamid lambs were sacrificed each day as a minimum requirement - one in the AM and one in the PM - 2:30PM) So we see that the number of sacrifices is 2,300 (two per day) or 2,300 divided by 2 equals 1,150 days. So Antiochus would be in control of the temple for 1,150 days.

After the 1,150 days the sanctuary would be cleansed. As we saw earlier Josephus tells us that this lasted for a total of 3 ½ years. So it took six months to cleanse the Temple of the pollution. The cleansing of the Temple was not just a matter of hosing the place down with lysol and a garden hose. They totally replaced the alter, walls, and floor. One report said that they removed the dirt from under the floor. An air gap was the only thing that would staunch the flow of corruption.

Using the Greek calendar - which was used in the time of Antiochus and assuming that the years of 146 and 148 were intercalary years, we can take the Maccabean dates of 9-15-145 to 9-25-148 and determine that the time interval is three years and ten days. And so we have...

3 x 360 equals ***************************1,080 days
2 x 30 (2 intercalary months)*************60 days
From 15th to 25th equals ****************10 days
Total ***************************************1,150 days

As I said before - Antiochus' intention was to totally destroy the People of God and their religion. Daniel fortold the end of this effort and its failure. The Bible uses the symbol of 3 1/2 years, or less, as a period of tribulation. The tribulation of Israel under Elijah (drought) was 3 1/2 years. The tribulation under Antiochus was 3 1/2 years: the "Tribulation of those days" (70AD) was 3 1/2 years. The tribulation of Nero was 3 1/2 years. The tribulation of Domitian was 3 1/2 years.

 

[DaDad]

Hi Cooter,

Daniel prophesied in his day the major coming events of the next 600 years starting from his day ...

Daniel 12:4 & 12:9 would disagree with an ancient fulfillment, as do the scholars, -- specifically, Montgomery, Young, Newton, Scallinger, and the "great Catholic chronographers".


Perhaps the church and commentators are simply giving you their best INCORRECT answer, because they don't have a CORRECT answer:


[SIZE=12pt]1. Per Walvoord:[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.[/SIZE]”, P.218

2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

7. Per Young, regarding "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem": "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224 -

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971


8. Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html



“New Bible Commentary: Revised.”
“This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[SIZE=8pt][1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Note: According to the dictionary a "legion" consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.[/SIZE] That's a lot of INCORRECT variations, each one proposing THEIR version is LESS INCORRECT than the others.





Have you considered a modern interpretation, which would comply with the specified advances in travel and information?

Dan. 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”




With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

Dan.8:14, "2,300" The vision serves as a type of what shall transpire at the end of the present world order - as in today's full blown apostasy.

Dan.9:24, "70" Describes all future time from the days of Daniel unto the end of time covering the Comings of Jesus.

Old Jack's opinion

btw bottom of the heap, antithesis of any 'scholar.'

 

[Cooter]

DaDad, on 26 May 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:
Hi Cooter,
Have you considered a modern interpretation, which would comply with the specified advances in travel and information?
Dan. 12
4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

All of Daniel 12 is about the fall of Jerusalem. The verse you quoted was written hundreds of years before christ. In the 3rd century BC there was a great explosion of knowledge that occurred. They started building libraries in every major metropolis. The greatest one of that time was the library of Alexandria. This library had 700,000 scrolls. This was a think tank where learned men would come to study. This began before christ and it is only common sense that since the Second Coming has been delayed over 2,000 years now that knowledge would continue to increase.
Daniel was talking about the latter days. Former days was before the exile and the latter days was counted after the return from Babylon. Peter said on the day of Pentecost that those last days were in 30AD.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[DaDad]

Hi Cooter,

All of Daniel 12 is about the fall of Jerusalem.

I believe you mis-spoke, and intended to cite Chapter 11. However, if you go back to 11:2, you should find that History does not agree with the "three more" and "fourth" ancient history assignments. Newton readily discounted the "classical" interpretation and wrote his own, but realized he too had failed, AND REFUSED TO PUBLISH.

Thus Newton deserves his "Sir", but the others simply deserve "liar".



With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Hi Cooter,


I believe you mis-spoke, and intended to cite Chapter 11. However, if you go back to 11:2, you should find that History does not agree with the "three more" and "fourth" ancient history assignments. Newton readily discounted the "classical" interpretation and wrote his own, but realized he too had failed, AND REFUSED TO PUBLISH.

Thus Newton deserves his "Sir", but the others simply deserve "liar".



With Best Regards,
DD

Thank you again for caring!

Old Jack

btw before I met the Godman Christ, I even lied about lying. ^_^