The Cleansing of the Sanctuary & The 70 Weeks of Daniel

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Raeneske

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In the vision of Daniel 8, we are given a brief view of the events that would take place in the world. It starts off in symbols, and then leads to two saints talking to one another.

Daniel 8:15-16 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. 16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

This is the first time Gabriel has appeared to Daniel. Gabriel to told to make David understand the vision.

Daniel 8:17-19 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. 18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright. 19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

This is what Gabriel sets out to do. However, after explaining the some symbols, and things pertaining to them, something happened to Daniel.

Daniel 8:26-27 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. 27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Daniel fainted. After fainting we find out that Daniel arises, and was astonished at the vision, but none understood it. What did Daniel not understand? The ram, the he-goat, even the little horn were explained to him. It could only be the part of the vision that was left almost entirely unexplained.

Daniel 8:13-14 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

What were these two saints talking about? When do the "two thousand and three hundred days" begin? When do they end? What is the cleansing of the sanctuary and how is the sanctuary cleansed? Daniel was troubled with this vision, and was without understanding for a portion of it as even Christians today are. Nevertheless, we are not left without an understanding. These things are directly answered for us to gain an understanding. In Daniel 9, Gabriel comes once again to speak to Daniel.

Daniel 9:21-22 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Who came to Daniel in Daniel 9? It is Gabriel, the man whom he had seen in the vision at the beginning. What is "the vision at the beginning"? It can be none other than the vision of Daniel 8, for in Daniel 8 is Gabriel's first appearance to Daniel. Gabriel informs Daniel that he then came forth to give Daniel skill and understanding.

Daniel 9:23-24 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Now, Gabriel stated to Daniel to understand the matter, and consider the vision. What vision? No doubt, the vision of Daniel 8, the one where Daniel did not understand. It is this vision which Daniel was to consider. This is absolutely confirmed when Gabriel opens us his understanding by starting with a set time, that being 70 weeks (490 days). Here Gabriel tells Daniel that 70 weeks were determined upon his people and upon the holy city. The word that is used for determined, actually means cut off.

H2852
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.

BLB (Blue Letter Bible) says:
to divide, determine
(Niphal) to be determined, be decreed, be settled, be marked out

This word châthak is only used once in the entire Bible. While it does indeed mean determined, it refers to a "marking out", that is a cutting off of one thing from another. 70 weeks were to be determined, to be decreed, settled, and marked out for Jerusalem and the people. What is it marked out from? From the previous vision which Daniel was to consider. 490 days are decreed, that is, cut off from the 2300 days for the people and the holy city.

However, are these 490 days literal days? It is commonly understood that these are not literal days, but years. In fact, this is partially where the 7 year tribulation comes from. The interpretation put forth is that 483 of said "days", that is, years, have passed, but the final seven have yet to be carried out. The Bible does indeed teach the "day for a year" type of understanding for prophecy. Consider these verses:


Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Ezekiel 4:5-6 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel. 6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

So indeed, it is 490 literal years, and not days. When do the 2300 year prophecy and the 490 year prophecy begin?

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

That means that Jerusalem was given 490 years of the 2300 years prophecy which began from the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. This brings forth a fact that many do not understand. The sanctuary that was to be cleansed in the 2300 days does not refer to any temple in Jerusalem. Only 490 years referred to Jerusalem, which began from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem.

The interpretation of the 7 year tribulation places a gap between 483 years, and the last 7 years of the 490 years prophecy. This gap is unknown time wise. However, such a gap is erroneous, and the 7 years have already expired. It is not possible that to this day, we are still waiting for 7 years to be fulfilled. Stopping such a prophecy would freeze the 2300 year prophecy. And if that was frozen, that would mean there would be 1817 years left of that prophecy. That is impossible. To many prophecies have been fulfilled in our day, and are being fulfilled for there to be 1817 years left of the prophecy. No, I am not setting a time and date. But we most assuredly can know the season.

One may attempt to place the 7 years as part of the final of the 2300 year prophecy, but this would mean that the 7 year tribulation took place from 1837 to 1844 (see more about 1844 below). Was there a 7 year tribulation from 1837 to 1844? Absolutely not.

The conclusion which has been made is that the 490 year prophecy stopped is incorrect. Why would a time prophecy cease? We have a perfect example from the book of Jonas.


Jonah 3:4-5 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. 5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

They were given 40 days before they were destroyed. However, was their destruction carried out in 40 days? No, because they repented. Israel had 490 years determined upon them. Did Israel repent? Did they "finish the transgression"? Did they accept everlasting righteousness? Were they reconciled back to God? Or did they kill Christ, stone Stephen (the first Christian martyr), and reject the Gospel truth?

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

It was necessary that the Word of God was first spoken unto Israel. However, seeing they put it from them, it went out to the Gentiles. Israel's probationary time as a nation was over in 34 AD. The 490 years had expired. The commandment went forth in 457 BC to restore and build Jerusalem.

Ezra 7:13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16-19 And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem: 17 That thou mayest buy speedily with this money bullocks, rams, lambs, with their meat offerings and their drink offerings, and offer them upon the altar of the house of your God which is in Jerusalem. 18 And whatsoever shall seem good to thee, and to thy brethren, to do with the rest of the silver and the gold, that do after the will of your God. 19 The vessels also that are given thee for the service of the house of thy God, those deliver thou before the God of Jerusalem.

(Please see all of Ezra 7). The 490 years began when this decree went out. Gabriel told us that from the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the time of Messiah the prince, shall be 7 weeks and 62 weeks. This is a total of 69 weeks. That is, 49 years for Jerusalem to be rebuilt, and 434 more years until the Messiah appeared. This brings us to 27 AD, the year in which Jesus was baptized. Now there were 7 years left of this prophecy.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

With many Jews, the covenant was indeed confirmed during the final week of Daniel. However, in the midst of the week, Christ caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. They were no more needed when Christ gave up His life for us, dying upon the cross in 31 AD. After Christ's death however, Jerusalem still had the truth preached to them. They had 3 more years left. However, they finally rejected the Gospel message, by themselves being guilty of not only the blood of the Messiah, but also guilty of the blood of the 1st Christian Martyr, Stephen, who was stoned by them in 34 AD.

Now, figure out 2300 years from the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem. That happened in 457 BC. Subtract 2300 years from 457, and you get -1843. But another year must be added to that, because there is no phantom zero year, which took up a number from our calculations. That brings us to 1844. It is that time which Daniel 8:14 points to.


Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

What then is the cleansing of the Sanctuary? What Sanctuary was to be cleansed? The one in Jerusalem? What would be the purpose of such a cleansing, since the temple veil ripped, and such a temple ceased to matter?

Mark 15:37-38 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. 38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.

If the temple in Jerusalem ceased to matter, then what sanctuary is being referred to here? What was to be cleansed? Answer: The great original Tabernacle.

Hebrews 8:1-2 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

There is a true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. The tabernacle that man pitched was not the original, but made after a pattern.

Exodus 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

The temple and it's services on earth were type's of the great anti-types. For example, the high priest on earth was a type of the Great High Priest in Heaven, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

The first covenant had ordinances of divine service and a worldly sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.

Indeed, as there was a worldly sanctuary, there is a heavenly sanctuary, which is the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. The worldly sanctuary was cleansed yearly, on the Day of Atonement. The heavenly sanctuary then, as well was to be cleansed, not yearly, but only once, just like Christ was sacrificed only once.

Hebrews 9:23-26 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The cleansing of the sanctuary of Daniel 8:14 refers to the heavenly Sanctuary, as we are in the Christian age. The Day of Atonement was a type of what is going on right now, the anti-typical cleansing of the sanctuary. On the Day of Atonement, the people and the sanctuary were to be cleansed from sin.

Leviticus 16:30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

Leviticus 16:33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.

Why though, would the sanctuary on earth need to be cleansed? Why would the sanctuary in heaven need to be cleansed? Well, we must start by understanding that the life of the flesh is in the blood, and without shedding of blood is in no remission of sins.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

In the OT, the Israelite transferred his sins to the victim, that is, the animal. The animal bore the sins of the guilty, and the life was taken, and the blood spilled. And by the blood were the sins transferred to the sanctuary.

Leviticus 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.

By the sprinkling of the blood upon the veil, the sins were transferred then to the sanctuary. However, the blood was not always brought into the holy place of the sanctuary. In other cases, the blood was transferred by the priest who ate the flesh of the animal that was slain for the sins of the people.

Leviticus 10:17 Wherefore have ye not eaten the sin offering in the holy place, seeing it is most holy, and God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation, to make atonement for them before the LORD?

In both ways were the sins of the Israelite transferred to the sanctuary. Thus, because the sins were transferred to sanctuary, there would be necessary then for the sins to be removed from the sanctuary.

Leviticus 16:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:

Now, in Hebrews 9:25 that Christ did not enter into the with a sin offering for himself, as the high priest's of old had to. But Christ was the sacrifice for others. On the Day of Atonment, there was likewise a sin offering for all the people of Israel.

Leviticus 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

Also, was the sanctuary atoned for.

Leviticus 16:16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

Thus, as the OT Sanctuary received cleansing, so too will the NT Sanctuary be cleansed from the sins of God's people. This is to be done by the blotting out of sins which are written down in the books. The hour of God's judgment has come.

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
 
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DaDad

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Sep 28, 2012
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Raeneske said:
In the vision of Daniel 8,
...
70 weeks were to be determined, to be decreed, settled, and marked out for Jerusalem and the people.
...
So indeed, it is 490 literal years, and not days. When do the 2300 year prophecy and the 490 year prophecy begin?

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
...
Now, figure out 2300 years from the going forth of the commandment to restore Jerusalem. That happened in 457 BC. Subtract 2300 years from 457, and you get -1843. But another year must be added to that, because there is no phantom zero year, which took up a number from our calculations. That brings us to 1844. It is that time which Daniel 8:14 points to.
Hi Raeneske,

I'm not sure where to begin. It appears you have missed the significance of the Daniel 8 Ram/Goat, turned the 2,300 days into an incorrect "years", followed the Daniel 9 mis-rendering of what is NOT a summed ~sixty-nine~, and the seventy "weeks" which are NOT sevens; and used mathematical gymnastics to arrive to a date which has no merit.

Hope this helps,
DaDad
 

Raeneske

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Sep 18, 2012
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DaDad said:
Hi Raeneske,

I'm not sure where to begin. It appears you have missed the significance of the Daniel 8 Ram/Goat, turned the 2,300 days into an incorrect "years", followed the Daniel 9 mis-rendering of what is NOT a summed ~sixty-nine~, and the seventy "weeks" which are NOT sevens; and used mathematical gymnastics to arrive to a date which has no merit.

Hope this helps,
DaDad
I'll tell you, what's mathematical gymnastics is how the 70 weeks of Daniel are somehow split up to mean 69 weeks in the past, and one week in the future. And then the prophecies of the 2300 days, the 1260 days, the 1290 days, the 1335 days, and many of the prophecies of Revelation are stuffed within the final week of Daniel. That's mathematical gymnastics.

The Ram and the Goat's significance have not been missed. I did not mention them in detail because they have no need to be mentioned in detail in this topic. The Ram and the Goat are bluntly explained by Gabriel, while the 2300 days are left almost wholly unexplained in Daniel 8. Gabriel comes in Daniel 9 to help give Daniel some understanding as to the 2300 days prophecy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I fail to see how seven weeks and threescore and two weeks do not equal sixty-nine weeks. I also do not understand how a week cannot equal seven. I did not say "sevens", that is something that is usually implied to mean something else. Yes, it is 7 years, but the term "sevens" did not come from me.

The date indeed has merit. In 1844, Christ moved from the holy place to the most Holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.
 

DaDad

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Sep 28, 2012
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Raeneske said:
I'll tell you, what's mathematical gymnastics is how the 70 weeks of Daniel are somehow split up to mean 69 weeks in the past, and one week in the future. And then the prophecies of the 2300 days, the 1260 days, the 1290 days, the 1335 days, and many of the prophecies of Revelation are stuffed within the final week of Daniel. That's mathematical gymnastics.

The Ram and the Goat's significance have not been missed. I did not mention them in detail because they have no need to be mentioned in detail in this topic. The Ram and the Goat are bluntly explained by Gabriel, while the 2300 days are left almost wholly unexplained in Daniel 8. Gabriel comes in Daniel 9 to help give Daniel some understanding as to the 2300 days prophecy.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I fail to see how seven weeks and threescore and two weeks do not equal sixty-nine weeks. I also do not understand how a week cannot equal seven. I did not say "sevens", that is something that is usually implied to mean something else. Yes, it is 7 years, but the term "sevens" did not come from me.

The date indeed has merit. In 1844, Christ moved from the holy place to the most Holy place in the heavenly sanctuary.
Hi Raeneske,

RE: SEVENTY WEEKS
I FULLY AGREE that the 70 "weeks" of Daniel ARE NOT broken. They are one continuous time line. However, they are not 70 WEEKS of years! Walvoord cites Young, who is in agreement with Keit and Kliefoth that the first sixty-nine are in the "unusual" inconcise masculine gender text.


RE: RAM/HE-GOAT
The Ram IS NOT the Medo/Persian Empire, and the He-Goat is NOT the Grecian Empire.


RE: SEVEN AND SIXTY-TWO
Newton discounted the summation of the seven and the sixty-two as though they should be presented as ~sixty-nine~. Thus your "Version" is incorrect. Please consider the Revised Standard Version (or equivalent).


RE: 1844
There are many dates which can be ascribed to Scripture/History. I do not believe that 1844 is one of them, -- especially HOW you have arrived at it.


With Best Regards,
DaDad
 

Raeneske

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DaDad said:
Hi Raeneske,

RE: SEVENTY WEEKS
I FULLY AGREE that the 70 "weeks" of Daniel ARE NOT broken. They are one continuous time line. However, they are not 70 WEEKS of years! Walvoord cites Young, who is in agreement with Keit and Kliefoth that the first sixty-nine are in the "unusual" inconcise masculine gender text.
The 70 weeks are certainly not literal weeks. The commandment to rebuild Jerusalem went forth in 457 BC. Jerusalem was not completely rebuilt in 457 BC.

DaDad said:
RE: RAM/HE-GOAT
The Ram IS NOT the Medo/Persian Empire, and the He-Goat is NOT the Grecian Empire.
Daniel 8:20-21 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

I disagree completely.

DaDad said:
RE: SEVEN AND SIXTY-TWO
Newton discounted the summation of the seven and the sixty-two as though they should be presented as ~sixty-nine~. Thus your "Version" is incorrect. Please consider the Revised Standard Version (or equivalent).
The RSV states that "from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." How are you reading this? Because this would make Scripture untrue. There were not 49 years from the commandment to to rebuild Jerusalem "unto" (as the KJV says) the appearance of the Messiah. This would mean Jesus appeared in 408 BC. And that is incorrect. KJV posted below.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From the commandment going forth to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince (that means, from one time to the other time) was to be 69 weeks.

DaDad said:
RE: 1844
There are many dates which can be ascribed to Scripture/History. I do not believe that 1844 is one of them, -- especially HOW you have arrived at it.


With Best Regards,
DaDad
I disagree completely. 2300 years from 457 B.C. is 1844. In 1844 Christ entered into the Most Holy place of the Heavenly Sanctuary.
 

DaDad

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Hi Raeneske,

Raeneske said:
The 70 weeks are certainly not literal weeks. The commandment to rebuild Jerusalem went forth in 457 BC. Jerusalem was not completely rebuilt in 457 BC.
You completely miss what has been plainly stated, -- the "weeks" are not 70 WEEKS of years! There is no ancient "start", no ancient "fulfillment", and no ancient expectation (per Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9). These are all prevarications of men who apparently feel compelled to answer ALL Scriptural Mysteries.

I would suggest that when Newton realized the impossibility of his own research, HE REFUSED TO PUBLISH. Thus he deserves his "SIR", but all others simply deserve "liar".



Raeneske said:
Daniel 8:20-21 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
I would propose that there is a different context than which you presume. Certainly there were never "kings" (shared reign) over the Medo/Persian Empire, but simply one king at time. Secondly, Dan. 2:39 establishes the premise for what you mistakenly has assigned to Alexander's empire.

And of course, historians correctly identify that the Grecian empire was broken up between FIVE Generals, not the four which others would deceive you in.



Raeneske said:
The RSV states that "from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." How are you reading this? Because this would make Scripture untrue.
On the contrary, the KJV rendering makes both Scripture and History untrue (per Newton, and Montgomery among others). The TRUTH is that there was an "anointed one" who was to come after the seven YEARS (inconcise Masculine Gender text); and another "anointed one" who was cut off (assassinated) after the sixty-two YEARS (inconcise Masculine Gender text). And then there was a one week (seven year -- concise Feminine Gender text) Peace Accord.

But once again, when the commentators defy the Angelic instructions, their result should be predictable.

-- And by the way, thanks for making the effort to evaluate what is actually the CORRECT translation! :)


With Best Regards,
DD
 
B

brakelite

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To deny the 2300 day/year principle is to deny the most spectacular Messianic prophecy in scripture, the 70 weeks...457BC-34AD...both time periods begin at the same time....from the going forth of the commandment etc...there is nothing of quote:prevarications of men needed to understand the historical fulfilment of these prophecies. Just discernment.

Daniel 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations. (YLT)
 

DaDad

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brakelite said:
To deny the 2300 day/year principle ...
...the 70 weeks...457BC-34AD...both time periods begin at the same time..
Hi brakelite,

To falsify both Scripture and History is to deny the most spectacular Prophetic passages in GOD's Word.

The merit of both Daniel 8 & Daniel 9 stand as presented.


With Best Regards,
DD


PS Please change your Bible "Version" to follow the RSV presentation of Dan. 9:25, -- as noted per Newton.
 

shturt678

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brakelite said:
To deny the 2300 day/year principle is to deny the most spectacular Messianic prophecy in scripture, the 70 weeks...457BC-34AD...both time periods begin at the same time....from the going forth of the commandment etc...there is nothing of quote:prevarications of men needed to understand the historical fulfilment of these prophecies. Just discernment.

Daniel 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations. (YLT)
Thank you for caring!

Only a head' up. Dan.9:24, "Seventy heptads..." (not "weeks") Begin from the time of Daniel and continue to the end of time covering both comings of Jesus sir.

Old Jack trying not to 'prevaricate' eating his 'waffles' this morning.

btw DaDad, we will also have to agree to disagree sir regarding Daniel chapters 8 & 9, ie, pass the syrup please.
 

DaDad

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shturt678 said:
btw DaDad, we will also have to agree to disagree
Hi shturt678,

I would propose that "Christianity" should not be an excuse to have difference, but rather come to agreements, -- so that the body is made whole. As such I would adjure you to seek the TRUTH regarding the Dan. 9:24 seventy shibiym, (inconcise Masculine Gender text, per Young, Keit, & Kliefoth) and the TWO anointed ones (per Newton) which both Scripture depicts, and History fulfills:

Dan. 9:25 RSV
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing




With Best Regards,
DD
 

Raeneske

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DaDad said:
Hi Raeneske,


You completely miss what has been plainly stated, -- the "weeks" are not 70 WEEKS of years! There is no ancient "start", no ancient "fulfillment", and no ancient expectation (per Dan. 12:4 & Dan. 12:9). These are all prevarications of men who apparently feel compelled to answer ALL Scriptural Mysteries.

I would suggest that when Newton realized the impossibility of his own research, HE REFUSED TO PUBLISH. Thus he deserves his "SIR", but all others simply deserve "liar".
They are weeks of years. The word weeks is shabuwa`. 19 times is the word translated to mean week, and one time it is translated to mean seven. Never in the entire KJV Bible is that word translated to simply years.

Genesis 29:27 Fulfil her week, and we will give thee this also for the service which thou shalt serve with me yet seven other years.

To fulfill the week, was to fulfill the seven years. The word shabuwa` can mean a literal week, or 7 years. So either it is 70 literal weeks, or it is 70 weeks of years. It cannot simply be 70 "years". Such a translation is incorrect of the original Hebrew word.

DaDad said:
I would propose that there is a different context than which you presume. Certainly there were never "kings" (shared reign) over the Medo/Persian Empire, but simply one king at time. Secondly, Dan. 2:39 establishes the premise for what you mistakenly has assigned to Alexander's empire.

And of course, historians correctly identify that the Grecian empire was broken up between FIVE Generals, not the four which others would deceive you in.
No they did not rule at the same time, but there are two "kings" refer to the dual empire of the two. Two different empires, making up one beast. The Bible plainly states the horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And it was Media and Persia that was conquered by Alexander the great. There is no mistake in history, but a mistake in what you are stating.

Daniel 8:20-21 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

As for historians stating that there were five generals, and not four, what they are stating is false.

DaDad said:
On the contrary, the KJV rendering makes both Scripture and History untrue (per Newton, and Montgomery among others). The TRUTH is that there was an "anointed one" who was to come after the seven YEARS (inconcise Masculine Gender text); and another "anointed one" who was cut off (assassinated) after the sixty-two YEARS (inconcise Masculine Gender text). And then there was a one week (seven year -- concise Feminine Gender text) Peace Accord.

But once again, when the commentators defy the Angelic instructions, their result should be predictable.

-- And by the way, thanks for making the effort to evaluate what is actually the CORRECT translation! :)


With Best Regards,
DD
Newton and Montgomery are incorrect. As for the years, I have already dealt with that. The word "weeks" is being made to mean something that it does not mean.

The most trustworthy translation is the KJV, which is based off the Textus Receptus and not the corrupt Alexandrian Manuscripts. The Alexandrian Manuscripts integrated the Apocrypha within the OT texts. The original KJV placed it between the OT and the NT for historic value, and not to be deemed as inspired. Not too mention, the Apocrypha was not even written in Hebrew.


brakelite said:
To deny the 2300 day/year principle is to deny the most spectacular Messianic prophecy in scripture, the 70 weeks...457BC-34AD...both time periods begin at the same time....from the going forth of the commandment etc...there is nothing of quote:prevarications of men needed to understand the historical fulfilment of these prophecies. Just discernment.

Daniel 9:25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader is seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26 And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end is with a flood, and till the end is war, determined are desolations. (YLT)
Not only is the most spectacular Messianic prophecy being denied, but also the great prophecy referring to the cleansing of the Sanctuary, which opened up the way for the great truth concerning God's forgotten memorial.
 

DaDad

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Sep 28, 2012
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Hi Raeneske,

Raeneske said:
They are weeks of years. The word weeks is shabuwa`. 19 times is the word translated to mean week, and one time it is translated to mean seven. Never in the entire KJV Bible is that word translated to simply years.
Perhaps the Strong's Concordance has taken a "short-cut" and has misrepresented the literal text for the "seventy", the "seven" and the "sixty-two". You might want to use an interlinear to validate the literal text. As such please expect to find that only the "seventieth" is the concise Feminine text, shabuwa. All else are the inconcise Masculine text shibiym, for which Young, Keit, & Kliefoth agree is NOT a duration of "seven" but are an "indefinite" duration.



Raeneske said:
No they did not rule at the same time, but there are two "kings" refer to the dual empire of the two. Two different empires, making up one beast. The Bible plainly states the horns are the kings of Media and Persia. And it was Media and Persia that was conquered by Alexander the great. There is no mistake in history, but a mistake in what you are stating.

Daniel 8:20-21 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
The Medo/Persian Empire is ONE entity as conceived under Cyrus the Great. To presume otherwise distorts both Scripture and History.

Now there were two regional powers which pre-dated the Babylonian empire, which consisted of the Medes, and the Persians, dating to 1100 to 800 B.C. Perhaps it is these pre-Metropolis entities which represented the Ram, and was destroyed by the new He-Goat Babylonian Metropolis model, as subsequent broken into four subsequent empires:

1. Gold, Babylonian -- Great Horn (IMAGE OF METALS - Metropolis Model)j
2. Silver, Medo/Persian -- Conspicuous Horn 1 of 4
3. Bronze, Grecian -- Conspicuous Horn 2 of 4
4. Iron, Roman -- Conspicuous Horn 3 of 4
5. Clay, "divided" -- Conspicuous Horn 4 of 4, -- consisting of the concurrent superpowers


Raeneske said:
Newton (is) incorrect.
Please provide a citation anywhere in Scripture or any society in world history where a pair of shoes cost $7, plus $62, plus tax.
Please note that a dozen and a half, four score and ten, one thousand four hundred fifty and two, -- are all legitimate increments. Per Newton, seven and sixty-two as one number does "violence" to Scripture. Thus the RSV is accurate as previously provided.


[SIZE=12pt]"We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", [/SIZE]



With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,

I would propose that "Christianity" should not be an excuse to have difference, but rather come to agreements, -- so that the body is made whole. As such I would adjure you to seek the TRUTH regarding the Dan. 9:24 seventy shibiym, (inconcise Masculine Gender text, per Young, Keit, & Kliefoth) and the TWO anointed ones (per Newton) which both Scripture depicts, and History fulfills:

Dan. 9:25 RSV
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing




With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your response again!

My truthful lower paygrade rendering of Dan.9:25, "...Unto an Anointed One, a prince, there will be seven heptads. And for sixty-two heptads...."

We must combine "7 heptads" with one clause to mark the duration of the first major period, and "62 heptads" with the next clause to mark the second major clause, ie, I don't see your separation? The starting point is the important thing, correct? Ie, when Cyrus allows captive Israel to return having in its objective "to restore and build Jerusalem." - 538 B.C.

Sorry, just talking out loud, and enjoying myself too much,

Old Jack
 

Raeneske

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Sep 18, 2012
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shturt678 said:
Thank you for your response again!

My truthful lower paygrade rendering of Dan.9:25, "...Unto an Anointed One, a prince, there will be seven heptads. And for sixty-two heptads...."

We must combine "7 heptads" with one clause to mark the duration of the first major period, and "62 heptads" with the next clause to mark the second major clause, ie, I don't see your separation? The starting point is the important thing, correct? Ie, when Cyrus allows captive Israel to return having in its objective "to restore and build Jerusalem." - 538 B.C.

Sorry, just talking out loud, and enjoying myself too much,

Old Jack
Shturt678,

If the rendering is supposed to say building Jerusalem *for* Messiah the prince, then it may make sense to say seven weeks. But the KJV says "unto" meaning, to His time. That is, 7 weeks of years for the spiritual building for Jerusalem, and 62 more weeks of years until the Messiah appeared. This is my understanding of it.
 

DaDad

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Sep 28, 2012
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shturt678 said:
Dan.9:25, "...Unto an Anointed One, a prince, there will be seven heptads. And for sixty-two heptads...."
Hi shturt678,

So if there's an "anointed one" after the seven; and another "anointed one" after the sixty-two, and we are told that Jesus is the SECOND "anointed one", -- Who's the FIRST "anointed one"?

Did Jesus have TWO appearances, or possibly an older brother?


With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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Feb 9, 2013
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DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,

So if there's an "anointed one" after the seven; and another "anointed one" after the sixty-two, and we are told that Jesus is the SECOND "anointed one", -- Who's the FIRST "anointed one"?

Did Jesus have TWO appearances, or possibly an older brother?


With Best Regards,
DD
DaDad said:
Hi shturt678,

So if there's an "anointed one" after the seven; and another "anointed one" after the sixty-two, and we are told that Jesus is the SECOND "anointed one", -- Who's the FIRST "anointed one"?

Did Jesus have TWO appearances, or possibly an older brother?


With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your response sir!

Finally down to my lower paygrade, ie, Dan .9:25, "Unto an Anointed One....("1" Coming of Christ)." V.26, "And after the 62 heptads Messiah (the "Anointed One" of v.25 - still a part of the "1" Coming) shall be cut off" with Satan's personal loosing at Rev.20:7.

Old Jack that agapes those lower paygrade questions.
Raeneske said:
Shturt678,

If the rendering is supposed to say building Jerusalem *for* Messiah the prince, then it may make sense to say seven weeks. But the KJV says "unto" meaning, to His time. That is, 7 weeks of years for the spiritual building for Jerusalem, and 62 more weeks of years until the Messiah appeared. This is my understanding of it.
Thank you for your response again!

My ol' rule of thumb has been the "Anointed One" in Dan.9:25 coming to a culmination makes reference to Christ is unavoidable.

The next constructive era is that of the 62 of course, ie, The spiritiual Jerusalem!

Only ol' Jack's rule of thumb.
 

Arnie Manitoba

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2011
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.
Trivia
SDA , JW's . & maybe Mormons used a similar calculation to come up with a mid 1800' s timeline for "the end of the world"
It didnt happen as they predicted so they played with the math and added another 7 years , but that didnt work either.
 

DaDad

Member
Sep 28, 2012
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Hi Arnie,

Arnie Manitoba said:
.
Trivia
SDA , JW's . & maybe Mormons used a similar calculation to come up with a mid 1800' s timeline for "the end of the world"
It didnt happen as they predicted so they played with the math and added another 7 years , but that didnt work either.

It's clearly impossible for man to fly. Icarus failed, thus ALL fail.

It's clearly impossible for man to travel into Space. Wan Hu failed, thus ALL fail.

It's clearly impossible for man to understand Prophecy. Arnie failed, thus ALL fail.



1 Cor 14
26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. reject it out of hand.


I hope the above correction meets with your APPROVAL.




With Best Regards,
DD
 

Raeneske

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Sep 18, 2012
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Arnie Manitoba said:
.
Trivia
SDA , JW's . & maybe Mormons used a similar calculation to come up with a mid 1800' s timeline for "the end of the world"
It didnt happen as they predicted so they played with the math and added another 7 years , but that didnt work either.
The movement that pronounced that Jesus was coming back in 1844 made a mistake. Their calculations brought them to the correct date of 1844, but they attributed the "cleansing of the sanctuary" to the coming of Jesus Christ to cleanse the earth. Yet, where do the Scriptures declare that the earth is the sanctuary? The message pronounced about judgement was clear, but the understanding not correct:

Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

As we speak, we are being judged, to see if we will be worthy of everlasting life or not. The cleansing of the sanctuary has to do with the blotting out of the sins of the people of God, before they enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. We are judged now, and the wicked shall be judged later by the saints with Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:2-3 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?