The Coming Great Apostasy

[Keraz]

Yeah, it can be very dangerous to make such accusations on either side.

What is more dangerous and immortal life threatening is to believe wrong doctrines, ideas that cannot be found in the Bible.

I would like to say to you Copperhead and Enoch111, lets leave it at that; by agreeing to disagree, but I can't do that because my God given task is to promote the Prophetic Word. To tell all I can about the amazing plan of the Lord for His people in these end times.
And as I cannot find anywhere; that anyone other that Enoch, Elijah and later; the 2 Witnesses, will go to live in heaven, then I must refute that false theory. I have ample scriptural proofs of the two aspects of this issue:
1/ Nowhere does the Bible actually say the Lord will take His people to heaven and Jesus said such a thing was impossible. John 3:13, and 5 other verses.
2/ The prophets tell us exactly what God actually does plan for His people during the period leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.
Plans to protect those who call upon His Name, Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, and to prosper them in all the area of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Romans 9:24-26
THAT is our destiny and our great privilege to be alive at this time, when so much prophecy will be fulfilled.

 

[Davy]

They; the 'rapture to heaven' believers; have to separate the Church and Israel, because they think the supposed faithful Church will go to heaven while Israel, namely the Jews stay on earth under tribulation.
That this idea is totally unscriptural, has no effect on their closed minds.

Yes, I'm well aware of Darby's Dispensationalist ideas about the Church raptured to Heaven while the kingdom of Israel is again established on earth, ideas that were created to support the false pre-trib rapture theory.

 

[Davy]

And what if you are the one who has closed his mind to the reality of the Church going to Heaven, while the Jews on earth are subject to the Tribulation?

After all Daniel was told that his people (the Jews) would be subject to the Tribulation period. But Christ did not give the Church this fate, since He saved us from wrath and judgment.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [the Jews]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

The tribulation is a unique period of history reserved for the future:such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time
And only saved Jews (who are found written in the book of life) shall be delivered from this judgment. There is no reference to the Church here, since Daniel was not revealing anything concerning the Church.

You just bypassed the Daniel 11:35 Scripture that Keraz posted in favor of your false interpretation of the Church being raptured. That Dan.12:1 Scripture says nothing... about a pre-trib rapture. You tried to insert one, and it directly contradicts the below verse:

Dan 11:35
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
KJV

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Thank you Keraz ,and then they forget God divorced Israel and the only way back is through Christ...For ALL!!!!!!!

How can God divorce Israel ? Israel are the Servants of God !

Jesus said that Nathaniel was a true Israelite and all the rest that he would see, now just In that such must blow you away ?

True Christians are what's called born again and that makes them Israel because they are the servants of God, not to mention that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel in fact and not to mention that anyone who rejects that is an Anti-Christ.

Only a true Israelite can come to know who Jesus truly was in fact back in the day and that's a fact, the rest were not worthy not to mention that they were mislead by the same mob of bastards who killed all of Gods Prophets and Jesus points them out for who they are, of their father of lies and murders from the beginning. look how they killed St Stephen who pointed them out, because he was telling the facts and the truth of the matter and not long after that the lights when on with Saul and he became Paul.

 

[n2thelight]

How can God divorce Israel ? Israel are the Servants of God !

Not understanding your comment so I'll just give you the verse

Jeremiah 3:8 "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

 

[n2thelight]

Israel is now the Church,the Church is the bride the marriage will happen at His return

 

[Copperhead]

Yes, I'm well aware of Darby's Dispensationalist ideas about the Church raptured to Heaven while the kingdom of Israel is again established on earth, ideas that were created to support the false pre-trib rapture theory.

Except Darby didn't start anything. They weren't his ideas. Dispensation has been around since Paul the Apostle wrote about it. The problem is, you have such vitriol for the idea that you don't have it right in your post. That is what is fascinating about those who wail against the pre-trib concept. They usually don't have the details right so that their arguments end up looking bizarre and sometimes silly.

Next some will say Darby got the idea from a wild eyed young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Well, I still have a standing invitation to a fine meal at a 5 star restaurant to anyone who can show that Macdonald even talked about the pre-trib in her ramblings. I have read all the reports written down at the time and I find nothing about the pre-trib idea. Actually all I, and every scholar that has looked at the material, find is her alluding to a post trib idea. In fairness, here is a link to what Macdonald said so anyone is free to search it and try to prove their case...

http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

I don't even bother with trying to tear down the other eschatological positions, I just focus on the one I hold and am secure in it. The others don't threaten me. And that is telling right there.... if folks are so secure in their eschatological position, then why do they feel so threatened by a pre-trib idea? Nothing in their retorts smacks of concern and love for the people they counter. Just a "in your face", I am right and you are wrong, methodology. And boy, do they get their shorts in a wad if you disagree. And they waste little time countering the other eschatological positions. Just a major focus on the pre-trib. Could it be that the pre-trib is actually the correct one to cause so many to act so worldly in countering the concept? Maybe Shakespeare was correct... Me thinks ye doest protest too much.

Whereas, we in the pre-trib camp feel somewhat joyous about the event coming and will be more than happy to explain it to those naysayers on the way up when it happens. Because, unlike many others, we also believe that all who are redeemed in Yeshua will make the trip. Yes, even those who rant and wail against the idea. A few get caught up in some "partial rapture" goofiness, but the vast majority of pre-trib folks are all inclusive. Everyone who is in the body has a ticket for that ride. Eschatology is not a condition of salvation, even though many try to give that impression by their arguments. It may however be a litmus test of Abrahamic faith that determines some rewards.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Israel is now the Church,the Church is the bride the marriage will happen at His return

The marriage happened back then with Christ and that's what the story is all about.
The dude that did not have a garment was not worthy or giving glory to Christ, he was like so many nowadays that claim to know God but do not know him, but rest in their own merit, that's what the dude was doing, so he was not worthy.
The Jews rejected the invite and they rejected it so was given to the Goyim.
The Marriage is a union with the divinity you know.

Anyone who is looking to the 2ed coming is not saved, because they do not truly know Jesus Christ. because they do not abide in him, they are looking out for him like, but the fact is he is here, do you remember that he said that he would never leave us and will be so till the end of time.

Now Jesus said that Nathaniel was a totally true Israelite, the perfect example in fact and the thing is that Nathaniel knew that Jesus was the Christ directly. now Holy Moses said that such would know Jesus. now how could a person who was not a servant of God know who their Lord and Saviour was ? so a servant of God knows who Jesus Christ is and that's a fact.
Do you know that Israel means Servant of God. now their was a dude who first got that name, do you know why ?

 

[Copperhead]

The marriage happened back then with Christ and that's what the story is all about.

If there is any similarity with the Hebrew 1st century wedding that Yeshua was fond of alluding to, then what happened back then was the betrothal, not the marriage. The procedure back then was that the betrothal took place and was sealed by the future groom and bride sharing a cup of wine. That happened at the last supper with Yeshua. then the prospective groom pays the bride price fo his future bride. Yeshua did that by His death on the cross. Then the groom returns to his home to prepare the chuppah (marriage chamber) for them. He is not allowed to go get his bride until the father approves of teh chuppah. If anyone asks the groom when the marriage will be , his response to them is "only my father knows".

You can find tons of material on the history of the Hebrew marriage in the first century.

Anyone who is looking to the 2ed coming is not saved, because they do not truly know Jesus Christ. because they do not abide in him, they are looking out for him like, but the fact is he is here, do you remember that he said that he would never leave us and will be so till the end of time.

This is a very dangerous position to hold and is counter to.....

Titus 2:11-13 (NKJV) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

That was one of Paul's last letters he wrote. Some 40 years after Yeshua ascended to the Father. Oh, by the way......

Acts 1:11 (NKJV) who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Actually, "Israel" means contender or prevailer with Yahweh. It was the name given to Jacob after.....

Genesis 32:28 (NKJV) And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

 

[Davy]

Except Darby didn't start anything. They weren't his ideas. Dispensation has been around since Paul the Apostle wrote about it. The problem is, you have such vitriol for the idea that you don't have it right in your post. That is what is fascinating about those who wail against the pre-trib concept. They usually don't have the details right so that their arguments end up looking bizarre and sometimes silly.

The idea of the Church being raptured to Heaven prior to the great tribulation, and then staying there after the tribulation while Israel is established as a kingdom on earth, was... a creation by John Nelson Darby. It's called Dispensationalism.

In reality per God's Word, Jesus returns after... the tribulation to gather His Church, both from Heaven and from earth, and then they all go to Jerusalem on earth to reign as... God's Israel. In Zechariah 14 we are even shown that Jesus' feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and all the saints with Him.

What's funny is that John Darby in 1830's Great Britain used to believe Scripture about Jesus' return after the tribulation to gather the Church. He turned to Jewish fables designed to overthrow Christian doctrine.

 

[Copperhead]

The idea of the Church being raptured to Heaven prior to the great tribulation, and then staying there after the tribulation while Israel is established as a kingdom on earth, was... a creation by John Nelson Darby. It's called Dispensationalism.

In reality per God's Word, Jesus returns after... the tribulation to gather His Church, both from Heaven and from earth, and then they all go to Jerusalem on earth to reign as... God's Israel. In Zechariah 14 we are even shown that Jesus' feet will touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from, and all the saints with Him.

What's funny is that John Darby in 1830's Great Britain used to believe Scripture about Jesus' return after the tribulation to gather the Church. He turned to Jewish fables designed to overthrow Christian doctrine.

No, it was not a creation of Darby. There is ample evidence of sermons, writings, etc at least back to the late 1400's. There is a book out called "Dispensationalism Before Darby" by Dr. William Watson, Professor of History, Colorado Christian University, specializing in 17th and 18th century English history. By the end of the 1600's, Pre-Trib and Dispensationalism had become common place. A considerable date distance before Darby was born.

it would really be helpful to everyone if you would really get up to speed with history. But it is true.... a lie told long enough eventually is considered the truth. And this dispensationalism is a creation of Darby clearly is a doozie.

 

[Copperhead]

Oops. My bad. I forgot to mention a secular writer, Dr. Paul Boyer. In his book "When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Armerican Culture" 1994 Harvard University Press......

"In a sense, Darby's system contained nothing new. His focus on the future fulfillment of prophecy followed the eschatology of the early Christians. Premillenialism had been an option for Protestant evangelicals since Joseph Mede's day (1586-1639), while rudimentary forms of "dispensationalism" go back at least as far as Joachim of Fiore (1135-1202).

Even Rapture doctrine... can be found in the writings of early interpreters, including Increase Mather (1639-1723). But Darby wove these diverse strands into a tight and cohesive system that he buttressed at every point by copious biblical proof texts, then tirelessly promoted through his writings and preaching tours."

 

[Davy]

No, it was not a creation of Darby. There is ample evidence of sermons, writings, etc at least back to the late 1400's. There is a book out called "Dispensationalism Before Darby" by Dr. William Watson, Professor of History, Colorado Christian University, specializing in 17th and 18th century English history. By the end of the 1600's, Pre-Trib and Dispensationalism had become common place

it would really be helpful to everyone if you would really get up to speed with history.

The pre-trib rapture theory was not taught in any... Christian Church before the 1800's.

Darby is credited even by dispensationalists (like Charles Ryrie) as developing the systematic ideas of Dispensationalism. Darby originally held to a post-trib return of Jesus and gathering of the Church. But his association with the Brethren cult evidently changed his views to a secret rapture theory, and thus his theories of dispensationalism were created from that. The Darbyites (the Brethren) was a cult movement in the 1800's. He broke off from the mainstream teachings of the Christian Church, which had been a post-tribulational return of Jesus and gathering of the Church for 1800 years.

 

[Copperhead]

The pre-trib rapture theory was not taught in any... Christian Church before the 1800's.

Darby is credited even by dispensationalists (like Charles Ryrie) as developing the systematic ideas of Dispensationalism. Darby originally held to a post-trib return of Jesus and gathering of the Church. But his association with the Brethren cult evidently changed his views to a secret rapture theory, and thus his theories of dispensationalism were created from that. The Darbyites (the Brethren) was a cult movement in the 1800's. He broke off from the mainstream teachings of the Christian Church, which had been a post-tribulational return of Jesus and gathering of the Church for 1800 years.

I gave you two book references from reputable college professors that are well versed in the history of the issue. That fact that you have decided to bury your head in a bucket of bias doesn't change the facts. You have provided no substantial proof except nonsense you have heard from others. Hardly worthy of consideration.

 

[Enoch111]

That fact that you have decided to bury your head in a bucket of bias doesn't change the facts.

All we hear are rants about Darby etc. even after the actual Scriptures have been presented. Which tells us that people prefer their biases and false ideas over the truth.

 

[farouk]

The marriage happened back then with Christ and that's what the story is all about.
The dude that did not have a garment was not worthy or giving glory to Christ, he was like so many nowadays that claim to know God but do not know him, but rest in their own merit, that's what the dude was doing, so he was not worthy.
The Jews rejected the invite and they rejected it so was given to the Goyim.
The Marriage is a union with the divinity you know.

Anyone who is looking to the 2ed coming is not saved, because they do not truly know Jesus Christ. because they do not abide in him, they are looking out for him like, but the fact is he is here, do you remember that he said that he would never leave us and will be so till the end of time.

Now Jesus said that Nathaniel was a totally true Israelite, the perfect example in fact and the thing is that Nathaniel knew that Jesus was the Christ directly. now Holy Moses said that such would know Jesus. now how could a person who was not a servant of God know who their Lord and Saviour was ? so a servant of God knows who Jesus Christ is and that's a fact.
Do you know that Israel means Servant of God. now their was a dude who first got that name, do you know why ?

We just read the opening of Revelation 21, and it's a wonderful vision of the Lamb and His bride.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

If there is any similarity with the Hebrew 1st century wedding that Yeshua was fond of alluding to, then what happened back then was the betrothal, not the marriage. The procedure back then was that the betrothal took place and was sealed by the future groom and bride sharing a cup of wine. That happened at the last supper with Yeshua. then the prospective groom pays the bride price fo his future bride. Yeshua did that by His death on the cross. Then the groom returns to his home to prepare the chuppah (marriage chamber) for them. He is not allowed to go get his bride until the father approves of teh chuppah. If anyone asks the groom when the marriage will be , his response to them is "only my father knows".

You can find tons of material on the history of the Hebrew marriage in the first century.


This is a very dangerous position to hold and is counter to.....

Titus 2:11-13 (NKJV) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

That was one of Paul's last letters he wrote. Some 40 years after Yeshua ascended to the Father. Oh, by the way......

Acts 1:11 (NKJV) who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Actually, "Israel" means contender or prevailer with Yahweh. It was the name given to Jacob after.....

Genesis 32:28 (NKJV) And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.”

In red 13, this is about when one becomes born again.
And Acts 1:11 is the same, it's about being born again.
Only through the Holy Spirit does it come.
One can not come to Jesus Christ to abide in him if you do not have the Holy Spirit. not to mention that regardless of anything 2ed coming and all.

If one was to contend and prevails as it was here are they not serving God and yes you are correct it was given to him by an Angel due to this, he was not born to it.
Sadly what you are doing is denying that Jesus came and are looking to another.

 

[Keraz]

All we hear are rants about Darby etc. even after the actual Scriptures have been presented. Which tells us that people prefer their biases and false ideas over the truth.

We have yet to see any scriptural proof of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

The most biased and intransigent people I have come across are those who grip onto the incredible idea that one day they will be floated skyward to live with God in the Spiritual realms.
As a person who can fairly claim to know what the Bible does say about our destiny and role during the end times; I am just in amazement that anyone believes such an idea. It is even beyond comparison with childish fairy tales!

 

[Enoch111]

We have yet to see any scriptural proof of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.

Evidently you do not understand the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture otherwise you would not be making such comments. You will probably deny that Enoch was raptured to Heaven, or Elijah was caught up to Heaven, or all the OT and NT saints who have passed on are in Heaven. But it is all there as "scriptural proof". Do you even believe that Christ is presently in Heaven, and that all those who die in Christ go to Heaven?

 

[Copperhead]

In red 13, this is about when one becomes born again.

I and stepping out a little bit here... did you mean Revelation 13?