The Coming Great Apostasy

[Lady Crosstalk]

Who said that those "born again" Jews were FROM the land of Israel?
The words "twelve thousand, from each "tribe of Israel" , is symbolic of a remnant that shall believe and come to the Lord Jesus, in this Age of God's Grace.
And for those that do, they have become "new creatures [creation]", through Blood of Christ, and the Gift of God's Holy Spirit. Through that "new birth", there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

It is quite unlikely that the Jewish apostle John would have named the specific tribes of Israel as meaning anything other than Israel. Now, having said that, you are correct in asserting that they would not have to come from the land of Israel BUT they would definitely be descendants of Jacob/Israel because the Tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble". Yes, all who come to Christ through His Blood are new creations but to say that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile is to say that there is no difference between men and women because they are also one in Christ Jesus. There is no difference between believing Israel and the Church in terms of salvation, just as there is no difference between men and women in salvation--they have equal standing. But to say that there is no difference here in mortal life is part of replacement theology which does not conform to the Bible. I agree that in the Eternal State, the people of God will not be divided as Israel and the Church--they will be one. But, until that time, distinctions exist and are important for understanding the Millennial Kingdom which comes between the Church Age and the Eternal State.

 

[Davy]

It is quite unlikely that the Jewish apostle John would have named the specific tribes of Israel as meaning anything other than Israel. Now, having said that, you are correct in asserting that they would not have to come from the land of Israel BUT they would definitely be descendants of Jacob/Israel because the Tribulation is the "time of Jacob's trouble". Yes, all who come to Christ through His Blood are new creations but to say that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile is to say that there is no difference between men and women because they are also one in Christ Jesus. There is no difference between believing Israel and the Church in terms of salvation, just as there is no difference between men and women in salvation--they have equal standing. But to say that there is no difference here in mortal life is part of replacement theology which does not conform to the Bible. I agree that in the Eternal State, the people of God will not be divided as Israel and the Church--they will be one. But, until that time, distinctions exist and are important for understanding the Millennial Kingdom which comes between the Church Age and the Eternal State.

It's actually your thinking that is a type of 'replacement theology', because Christ's Salvation is for those who believe. Any separation that happens for the Jews after His coming will be because of their unbelief, which of course will be an example of their being in shame, and not yet joined among the "first resurrection" that will reign with Jesus in that time (see end of Zech.12). If you don't know this then it means you have not really studied enough of the OT prophets, especially the last nine chapters of the Book of Ezekiel which is the time of Christ's future Millennial reign of Revelation 20.

Like Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9, God's true Israel isn't about the seed, it's about those of Faith being 'counted' for the seed. Does that mean Israel will stop being a nation after Christ's future return? No. But it certainly does not mean only those born of the flesh seed of Israel during this present world either. If the truth be known, the seed of Israel is so mixed up today with different peoples that it's impossible for the majority of them to prove their authentic genealogy from original Israel of OT times.

 

[n2thelight]

Like Apostle Paul taught in Romans 9, God's true Israel isn't about the seed, it's about those of Faith being 'counted' for the seed. Does that mean Israel will stop being a nation after Christ's future return? No. But it certainly does not mean only those born of the flesh seed of Israel during this present world either. If the truth be known, the seed of Israel is so mixed up today with different peoples that it's impossible for the majority of them to prove their authentic genealogy from original Israel of OT times.

Thank you ,and even the bloodline of Israel if they don't believe in Christ are grafted out of their own tree.Israel are Christians ,as Christ is Israel .

 

[n2thelight]

That's why the Church is Israel

 

[Keraz]

That's why the Church is Israel

And we Christians will be assigned to a tribe according to our individual characteristics. John sees us all assembled in Jerusalem, Rev 7:9, when Jesus stands on Mt Zion, Rev 14:1-7 and selects the 144,000 missionaries out of that vast multitude.

Obviously the Jews cannot be all of Israel as many like to think; they are of the House of Judah, which comprises of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin; plus some from the other tribes and aliens who have become Jews by accepting Judaism.
The Jews themselves know this very well, it is only those who have believed false doctrines, who make out the Jewish State of Israel to be the only Israel.

 

[n2thelight]

Thank you Keraz ,and then they forget God divorced Israel and the only way back is through Christ...For ALL!!!!!!!

 

[Davy]

I used to think the Papacy was the antichrist but I'm starting to change my mind. This video makes cense.

What he says is interesting, but it's easy to know those Islamic writings aren't telling the truth, because Jesus admitted to His Apostle witnesses at His 1st coming that He is God The Son, and that He would rise after three days and three nights, and His Apostles and disciples were witnesses of that. So how would Jesus return and reverse what He Himself proclaimed, and that we, His Church, has been wrong about all along? That is clearly enough proof that Islamic writings are telling lies about Jesus, and that their writing that was all a fabrication from men, just like the whole Islamic system is.

MacArthur still has missed some major Scriptural points about the end. In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul showed the coming false one will exalt himself as God in the "temple of God", meaning a new Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end. He will exalt himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped, Paul says. That means the deceived Jews are going to worship that false one as their Messiah.

Would orthodox religious Jews who truly love our Heavenly Father intentionally worship an Islamic Mahdi? NO!!

Nor would a true Christian believer worship an Islamic Mahdi.

Thus the Islamic Mahdi idea is just a fabricated eye candy idea specifically for Muslims.

It doesn't matter which religious system one believes in at that time, the coming false one is going to fill that role for each one. Each religion follower will believe, or be told that is their saviour they have been waiting for.

Now just what man... would be able to pull that level of deception off, deceiving the whole world, like God's Word says?

 

[Keraz]

Thus the Islamic Mahdi idea is just a fabricated eye candy idea specifically for Muslims.

Right, at the forthcoming great and terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, Islam will be no more. Psalms 79:5-6, Isaiah 33:10-12, Jeremiah 25:30-31, Amos 1:1-15, Habakkuk 3:3-15, +
When the leader of the OWG rises to power, he will enforce the worship of himself. Revelation 13:14-15

 

[Copperhead]

There is a reference to "the Assyrian" who seems to be this character that is coming on the scene shortly. in Isaiah, it seems to be referenced that the Pharaoh who oppressed the Hebrews in Egypt was in fact "the Assyrian", Isaiah 52:4. And likewise, the one who will oppress them in the future will also be "the Assyrian".. Isaiah 10:24 and Isaiah 14:25. Micah 5:5-6 seems to allude to this same idea. There seems to be a tie in with Satan and this "the Assyrian" character. And it can be argued that Nimrod was the original "Assyrian" in that the land area is generally the same. And that the antichrist will be similar to a Nimrod is probably more right than wrong. Now, what one does with this is up to them. But it still remains an interesting tie in. I don't believe in coincidence.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

But it still remains an interesting tie in. I don't believe in coincidence.

Neither do I.

 

[Enoch111]

That's why the Church is Israel

You won't find that in the Bible. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel.

 

[farouk]

You won't find that in the Bible. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel.

Indeed; it leads to interpretational confusion if Israel is equated with the church.

 

[Davy]

There is a reference to "the Assyrian" who seems to be this character that is coming on the scene shortly. in Isaiah, it seems to be referenced that the Pharaoh who oppressed the Hebrews in Egypt was in fact "the Assyrian", Isaiah 52:4. And likewise, the one who will oppress them in the future will also be "the Assyrian".. Isaiah 10:24 and Isaiah 14:25. Micah 5:5-6 seems to allude to this same idea. There seems to be a tie in with Satan and this "the Assyrian" character. And it can be argued that Nimrod was the original "Assyrian" in that the land area is generally the same. And that the antichrist will be similar to a Nimrod is probably more right than wrong. Now, what one does with this is up to them. But it still remains an interesting tie in. I don't believe in coincidence.

In reality, God uses the titles of "the Assyrian" and the "king of Babylon" and the prince and king of "Tyrus" as types for... who?

In Isaiah 14:4, God says early on in the chapter to take up a "proverb", against the king of Babylon, but on a deeper level He is actually pointing to Lucifer. Same thing in Ezekiel 28. No flesh king or prince of Tyrus was a "cherub that covereth" (i.e., covering the Mercy Seat of God's Throne in Heaven), nor were they ever in the Garden of Eden. Yet those references are there, likewise in Ezekiel 31 about the Assyrian. They're all really pointers to Satan himself, and his rebellion of old in wanting to be GOD.

Thusly, I am so surprised that more of my Christian brethren have not figured this out yet regarding our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings of the coming false one for the end of this world. It is going to be Satan himself coming, literally in person in our dimension. He has the outward image of a man per God's Word.

 

[Davy]

You won't find that in the Bible. The Church is the Church and Israel is Israel.

You should re-study about Jacob's new name then, because the name Israel was given to represent the overcomers who prevail with God's help. The Promise by Faith that was first given Abraham followed Isaac and then to Jacob, and the name Israel was to represent that Promise by Faith as part of God's promises to Abraham. Thus the name Israel is hard-attached to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

So how is it Christ's Church could be separate from God's Israel??? It cannot be separated, and I just showed you, from Scripture, because this is written of by Apostle Paul in Romans 4, Galatians 3, and Romans 9.

The problem with the unbelieving orthodox Jews who reject Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah is that they have rejected The Gospel, and thus also the meaning behind God giving Jacob the new name Israel, and what it was all along to represent, i.e, Christ's Salvation.

 

[Davy]

Indeed; it leads to interpretational confusion if Israel is equated with the church.

If that were true, then it's no wonder those who think what you said don't understand Apostle Paul's Epistles about Christ's Church, and I do mean Jesus Christ, our KING and Savior, of the tribe of Judah, of the house of David, soon to return and sit upon David's throne in Jerusalem!

Now how is it again, that Jesus is the Head of The Church while being the future King of Israel, and you say there's no connection between Israel and the Church???

 

[Keraz]

Now how is it again, that Jesus is the Head of The Church while being the future King of Israel, and you say there's no connection between Israel and the Church???

They; the 'rapture to heaven' believers; have to separate the Church and Israel, because they think the supposed faithful Church will go to heaven while Israel, namely the Jews stay on earth under tribulation.
That this idea is totally unscriptural, has no effect on their closed minds.

 

[Copperhead]

Oh, come on.... say what you really think!

 

[Keraz]

Oh, come on.... say what you really think!

If you are asking me; then I feel really sad for those who will be shocked and taken unaware of what will happen in the last few years of this age.
The people who believe their destiny is to go and live in heaven, have a great surprise coming to them and many will fall away from their faith because of it.

The great pity of it all, is that those who have believed the 'rapture to heaven' false teaching, have not seen or understood the great blessings that God has promised to everyone who stands firm in their through all that must happen.

As Daniel 11:35 says: there will be testing and refinement of the Lord's people. 1 Peter 4:12, Hebrews 12:5-8, +

 

[Enoch111]

They; the 'rapture to heaven' believers; have to separate the Church and Israel, because they think the supposed faithful Church will go to heaven while Israel, namely the Jews stay on earth under tribulation.
That this idea is totally unscriptural, has no effect on their closed minds.

And what if you are the one who has closed his mind to the reality of the Church going to Heaven, while the Jews on earth are subject to the Tribulation?

After all Daniel was told that his people (the Jews) would be subject to the Tribulation period. But Christ did not give the Church this fate, since He saved us from wrath and judgment.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people [the Jews]: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people [the Jews] shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

The tribulation is a unique period of history reserved for the future:such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time
And only saved Jews (who are found written in the book of life) shall be delivered from this judgment. There is no reference to the Church here, since Daniel was not revealing anything concerning the Church.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, it can be very dangerous to make such accusations on either side. It is fine to debate the various sides and try to make the case, but when folks hit the gutter and and call those who oppose them as being closed minded, deceivers, and whatever else they can dream up, it is going too far. I have heard it all. Kinda funny on some level. I usually figure that the folks who resort to this sort of thing first are the ones losing the debate. It is that way in politics, and not much different in the body nowadays.

These issues are not a condition of justification before the Lord, so there is no need for some to get their drippers in a wad.