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Featured The Cosmos

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Webers_Home, Aug 18, 2018.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Rev 14:6-7 . . And I saw another angel flying through the sky, carrying the
    everlasting gospel to preach to the people who dwell on the earth-- to every
    nation, tribe, language, and people. Fear God! he shouted. Give glory to
    Him! For the time has come when He will sit as judge. Worship Him who
    made heaven and earth, the sea, and all the springs of water!

    Although most Christians readily agree that the cosmos is the result of
    intelligent design; they're divided over the very first two verses of Genesis
    which read like this:

    1. In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. 2. And the earth
    was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
    And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

    Some sincerely believe the second verse indicates that the cosmos pre
    existed its current form. In other words: a great cataclysm wrecked the
    Earth so that God had to reconstruct it. Thus; we today live on a renovated
    Earth. This posit is the so-called Gap Theory; which is explained pretty
    well on Wikipedia.

    Others, just as sincere, believe that the six days of creation shouldn't be
    taken as 24-hour events; rather, as epochs of indeterminate length. This
    posit is based upon Genesis 2:4, which reads like this:

    "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were
    created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven."

    The Hebrew word for "day" in that verse is yowm (yome) which is the very
    same word for each of the six days of God's creation labors. Since yowm in
    Gen 2:4 refers to a period of time obviously much longer than 24 hours; it
    justifies suggesting that each of the six Days of creation were longer than 24
    hours too. In other words: yowm is ambiguous and not all that easy to
    interpret sometimes.
    _
     
  2. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    "The evening and the morning were the first day" (Gen 1:15)

    You are correct many have been misled by the word "day" as used in the scriptures particularly as used in this statement. As you say it is a translation of the Hebrew word yowm, pronounced, yome. While often in the Old Testament this word is applied to a literal day of twelve or twenty-four hours, the sacred writers did not thus limit its use.

    In Exod 13:10, Lev 25:29, Num 9:22, and in other places, the same Hebrew word is translated "year." In Gen 40:4 and Joshua 24:7 it is translated "season." In Gen 4:3 and 26:8, and many other places, yowm is translated "time." These references reveal clearly that the meaning of this Hebrew word is not limited to a twenty-four hour day. Besides, the Bible often uses the word "day" in a broader sense. The period of forty years the Israelite's spent in the wilderness is referred to as "the day of temptation in the wilderness" (Psa 95:8). Isaiah refers to the era of Christ's kingdom on earth as a "day" (Isa 11:10). And in Gen 2:4 the entire period of creation is "the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens. It is clear, then, that the Hebrew word yowm simply denotes a time, season, or era during which certain events take place, or a particular work is accomplished.

    We read, “The evening and the morning were the first day”. The Hebrew word here translated "evening" literally means "dusk" or darkness. What the Divine Author evidently wants us to understand is that each of the creative periods had an obscure, "dark" beginning, and the completion of the work of each age was a morning of brightness. It was literally true of the first "day" that it began in darkness, and ended with the divine decree, "Let there be light."
     
  3. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    Yes the bible can be difficult to understand and it always helps if the bible coments on a passage.
    Genesis's creation account is commented on several times.

    In the ten commandments the 6 day creation is given as the reason for a 1 in 7 day of rest.
    The assumtion being that God worked for 6 days and rted on the seventh.
     
  4. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Well; for sure we have to buy some time somewhere, lots of time-- either
    with the gap theory or the yowm/epoch theory --in order to account for the
    4.5 billion-year age of the earth, and factor in the various eras, e.g. Triassic,
    Jurassic, Mesozoic, Cenozoic, and Cretaceous, etc, plus the ice ages and the
    mass extinction events.

    There are some serious geological issues too. For example: the discovery of
    fossilized sea lilies near the summit of Mt Everest proves that the Himalayan
    land mass hasn't always been mountainous; but at one time was the floor of
    an ancient sea bed. This is confirmed by the "yellow band" below Everest's
    summit consisting of limestone: a type of rock made from calcite sediments
    containing the skeletal remains of countless trillions of organisms who lived,
    not on dry land, but in an ocean.

    Everest and its yellow band got up high like that by means of tectonic plate
    buckling and/or subduction; which are very slow processes requiring
    thousands of years.

    And there are hominid issues. For example: in 1992, Tim White of the
    University of California at Berkeley, discovered the fossilized skeleton of a
    woman (nicknamed Ardi) in Ethiopia's Afar Rift who lived 4.4 million years
    ago. His forty-seven member team, over a period of 17 years, discovered
    portions of the skeletons of thirty-seven more individuals from the same era.

    (Tim White's discovery sent evolutionists into a tail spin because the
    woman’s age, combined with her physical design, proves that apes and
    humans are separate and distinct species rather than sharing a common
    ancestor in an evolutionary chain.)

    Personally, I prefer the yowm/epoch theory, but at the same time readily
    agree that the gap theory is equally possible.
    _
     
  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    There is a third option which you failed to mention. Many Christians believe that the creation account must be taken at face value, and that each day of creation was a LITERAL 24-hour day period, beginning at sunset and ending at the following sunset (Hebrew reckoning of days). That is the only way in which the fourth commandment can be understood.

    EXODUS 20
    8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

    9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

    10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

    11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
     
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  6. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    The literal 24 hour day was mentioned, but it is generally passed by as being unfeasible and lacking support by most competent expositors. Understand no one here is saying that it would be impossible for God to accomplish this feat in a 24 hour day, in fact he could have accomplished it a mere moment if he wished, but this does not seem to be the Lord’s way.

    Remember he who inhabits eternity has no need to be in a hurry. Man is the one subjected to time, to the revelations of the earth around the sun; attempting to subject God to the same is foolish.

    Nor does sighting Exod 20:11, “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them” in any way restrict the length of these days to 24 hours each.

    The Scriptures inform us that God’s Great Sabbath Day of rest took place on the seventh day at the end of the creative week, and how long has this seventh day lasted thus far? Was it a literal 24 hour day, No! So far it’s lasted for a little over 6000 years, and we are further informed that Christ’s reign of 1000 years is to finish up this last day, accomplishing restoration of all things.

    This implies that God’s Great Sabbath Day is a total of 7000 years in duration, not 24 hours, and seeing as order is heavens first law we believe we are justified in assuming that the previous 6 days were likewise of same duration, each 7000 years long.

    Tell me how long did it take mankind to fulfill the Lord’s decree, “Be fruitful and multiply (propagate the species), and fill the earth?” Was this accomplished in a literal twenty-four hour day or has it taken centuries to accomplish?

    So then on the Fifth day when the Lord commanded the fish and the birds saying, “Be fruitful and multiply (propagate), and fill the waters in the sea, and let the birds multiply on the earth”, was this not accomplished in the same manner over centuries?

    Fish do not multiply (propagate) in a 24 hour day, the average gestation period is four weeks, for whales 10-18 months, for birds 2 to 5 weeks, as for animals, cows generally have a gestation period of up to 284 days, an elephant 640 days.

    Sorry but the idea of a literal 24 hour day defies both logic and sound reasoning.
     
  7. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Each of the six days of creation are bounded by an evening and a morning.
    The seventh is not bounded; it's an open-ended day which means that God
    is still on sabbatical and hasn't created anything new for the current cosmos
    since the end of the sixth day, i.e. while the Jews' commemorative seventh
    day is 24 hours; God's actual seventh day is perpetual. (cf. Heb 4:1-11)
    _
     
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  8. Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

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    Genesis 1:14-19

    14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
    16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
    18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
    19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


    God only made the sun and the moon on the fourth day.
     
  9. Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

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    Concerning the creation. I saw a documentary about mt. St. Helens (see link) which was a huge blessing to me. It gives us an idea how life gradually came back after the vulcano. I could not help but see the same God operating here that also created heaven and earth and it gave me some insight into His workmanship. Do yourself a favour and have a look when you have the time.

     
  10. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Yea right!, When you were a child you thought as a child, now its time to grow up.
     
  11. Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

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    What are you saying?
     
  12. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Active Member

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    I must disagree. Reasoning and sound logic are only so because God said so. Why does 2+2 consistently equal 4? Because God says so. All truth in the universe is only true because God says it is true. the 24hr days dont go against reason or logic, they go against your reason and your logic. The only way to understand this from God's point of view is to examine what He says from Scripture, and He clearly states that we should rest, as He did, on th 7th day. I dont care what science has supposedly discovered, 600 years ago everyone thought the world was flat, but that didnt make it right. Its high time we stop treating science as Scripture. We need to get back to a point where plain Scripture speaks without us trying to squish it to fit what we think is right. If you've got to squish Scripture to fit what you think is right, chances are yojr wrong. Study, realize, accept, repent, repeat. Every day this is the job of the christian. Lets start doing it
     
  13. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    _
     
  14. Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

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    What I'm saying is that the sun and the moon was only made on the fourth day. Yet day and night already existed. The 24 hour day is as we know the cycle of the sun. But what about before that? That must have been a different type of day.
     
  15. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    It you look closely you will note that it was not until the end of each day that it was stated, “so the evening and the morning were the first day… the second day…the third day…the fourth day…the fifth day and the sixth day. The only reason this is not likewise stated in regards to the seventh day is quite obvious, we have not reached the end of the seventh day, there’s still about a thousand years to go.

    Nor is the seventh day “open-ended” as you suggest it has a definite length (7000 years), it began shortly after the fall of Adam and ends at the end of the millennial age when Christ will have finished all the work assigned him, beginning from the giving of the ransom sacrifice at Calvary to the completion of the Church and the restoration and restitution of all things, i.e. the restoring of mankind to all that was lost in father Adam. Only then when he has subdued all things will the last enemy death (Adamic death) be destroyed and then the end will come when he deliver up the kingdom to God the Father (1 Cor 15:24).

    Although it is true that at the end of the sixth day God rested from his works of creation, this does not imply that he ceased working altogether, only with regards to the creative work did he cease working, from this point forward he went straight to his work of raising a Seed which would eventually deliver the race from its fallen condition.

    Our Lord himself attested to the fact that the Father was still at work even during the first 4000 years of the Seventh day, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” (John 5:17)

    Hitherto, (that is before I came), my Father was working, hence forth or now that I have come, I work.

    The coming of Jesus in the flesh we regard as the dividing line between the two works referred to here by the Savior, the work of the Father and the work of the Son. God’s work involved the raising of the Seed, and now that the Seed had come, the work of the Seed (in thy seed shall all the nations [peoples] of the earth be blessed), specifically the first part the giving of the ransom sacrifice would commence. God has since left all the work of restoration and restitution, the recovery of mankind in the hands of Christ.

    Thus, not until the end of the Seventh Day, when the Mediatorial kingdom will have restored mankind to harmony with God and the earthly creation is completed, perfected, declared “very good”, will it be appropriate to say, "And there was evening and morning, the Seventh Day."
     
  16. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry my friend but I base my conclusions on the laws of nature, and the giver of those laws, the Almighty Himself.

    It is God who has established the natural laws by which all life exist and reproduces itself, He is the one who set the time period for the gestation of fish, animals and man, and the incubation period for birds, there’s no getting around these facts. As we pointed out it takes fish up to four weeks to bring forth their young. The shortest incubation period for birds is the Canary which takes about 13 days; the Opossum has the shortest gestation period among animals, at about 12-13 days.

    As we stated before it would not be impossible for God to fill the seas immediately with fish, but the evidence of the scriptures indicates that this was not how it happen, it is clearly stated “be fruitful and multiply (propagate) and fill the waters in the seas”, the implication is clear fish were to multiply themselves through the natural processes and in time to fill the waters of the seas.

    Why would fish need to be fruitful and multiply to fill the seas if God was simply going to create them in mass all at once in a 24 hour day? Even if he did create them all at once in 24 four hours it is still stated that were to “fill the waters of the seas”. Let’s say the Lord chose to create all these fish at once in the Pacific Ocean, just how long do you imagine it would take for these fish to swim to all the various seas located across the globe, you can’t possibly believe that they could accomplish this feat in 24 hours.

    It takes a humpback whale an average of 6 to 8 weeks just to swim from Hawaii to Alaska, just imagine how long it would take them to get to the Atlantic from the Pacific.

    I can just see a little guppy swimming from Hawaii to Alaska, how long do you think it would take him to get there, that is if he weren’t eaten first?

    As the Lord said, “Come let us reason together” let us use our God given ability to reason things out logically soundly, and not be deluded into foolish speculations and imaginings.
     
  17. TheHolyBookEnds

    TheHolyBookEnds Well-Known Member

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    True. Does the word have meaning? Yes.

    What is the foundational meaning of the word? "day" (24 hours)

    Does the word have a broader range of meaning? Yes.

    How does a person know which meaning is meant, the foundational meaning, or the broader meaning? Context.

    While the word is the same in those places, the context is not the same between Gen. 1 use and Gen. 2:4 use. For instance, Gen. 2:4 has no numeric (one, second, third, ..) associated. Gen. 2:4 does not have the words "evening and morning" in association.

    Gen. 1:5 declares what "one" day is.

    The scripture states that the natural meaning comes first, followed by the spiritual meaning, in 1 Cor. 15:46.

    The literal must come first, otherwise how can any understand the deeper metaphorical or spiritual?

    For instance, 'the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, in Gen. 3:21, then comes the Lamb of God, Jhn. 1:29,36.

    In how many places (and in what context) in scripture does the word appear, in association with a numeric (such as Gen. 5:4-5 and so on) and/or with 'evening and morning', does it mean something other than a normal 24 hour day?

    Jesus said, in Jhn. 11:9, that the day (light portion) consists of 12 hours. Since God's ways are equal, the night (dark) portion is also 12 hours, and God "divided" it as such in the beginning.

    People that read Gen. 1:1-2:3 and find billions, millions, thousands of years therein, read what they desire into the text, from what they already believe, not from a plain reading of the text. They have a reversal of harmonization.

    For instance the Sun, moon were given for signs for "seasons" (like months, and so on), "days" and "years".

    Each of those very words has a foundational definition, but also have a broader meaning in various contexts. Those that incorrectly advocate for long ages in Gen. do not realize what they do, for the same application can be made for Gen. 1:14.

    Adam was created in the 6th day. He lived for 930 years. Did Adam live into the time of the 7th day that God rested? According to Jesus, he did.

    If the 6th day were billions, millions, or thousands, hundreds, or even tens (which it is not, by a simple reading) this would cause the scripture to be broken in regards to Adam. In the 6th day all was "very good". By the 7th day all was "finished".

    God knows how to use big numbers, and they are all over Gen. and the rest of scripture. No such large numbers are found in Gen. 1-2.
     
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  18. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Ps 104:5-9 . . He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never
    be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood
    above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder
    they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place
    that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so
    that they might not again cover the earth.

    Psalm 104 is stunning; and clearly way ahead of its time. Mountains rising,
    and valleys sinking speaks of tectonic plates, magma pressure, and the
    forces of subduction.

    It's doubtful the Psalmist knew about those sciences but he was clearly
    somehow aware that the Earth's crust is malleable. And that's true. With just
    the right combination of time, temperature, and pressure; solid rock can be
    made to bend, even forced to hairpin back upon itself like taffy.
    _
     
  19. TheHolyBookEnds

    TheHolyBookEnds Well-Known Member

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    Psa. 104:6-9 context is the Flood.

    Look at

    Psa 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
    Psa 104:7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

    Gen 7:19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
    Gen 7:20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
    Gen 7:24 And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

    Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters asswaged;
    Gen 8:2 The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained;
    Gen 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

    There were no mountains in Genesis 1:1-2. It says:

    Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Therefore, Psa. 104:8 refers to the effects of the flood, and the water channels cut and draining, and the earth having been broken up by the fountains of the deep bursting open.

    Psa 104:8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.

    I recommend Walt Brown's model on that.

    http://www.creationscience.com/



    Followed by:

    Psa 104:9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

    See

    Gen 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

    Perhaps you can address my previous response now in regards Adam in the 6th and 7th days and beyond.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2018
  20. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Well-Known Member

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    There was a time when many foolishly believe that the earth was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, but these had the excuse of living in the dark ages, a time of rampant superstition and ignorance, but we have come a long way since then both in knowledge and understanding for any to believe such things now they would have to be very naïve completely lacking in the “spirit of a sound mind”. So too with regards to any who honestly believe that the sun, moon and stars were created after the creation of the earth. Even a child can see the fallacy in this.

    It is the naïve Christian who disregards the laws of nature, for in doing so he disregards the maker of those laws.
     
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