The Covering Dynamic

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess we've been speaking at cross purposes.

What does that mean?

Sorry for taking your time.

Huh?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like I've said, we all have very different ways of reading the Bible, and I knew at the beginning we wouldn't reach agreement because of it.

We all knew that, but we discussed these things, anyway. Mostly respectfully. But, if you have decided to end the discussion, then I'll just say thanks for the discussion. Though I may respond to other posts that I haven't read yet. Don't feel obligated to respond in kind if you don't want to.

Everyone have a wonderful and blessed day!

You, too.

 

[rwb]

Really? Not to me.

It all harmonizes. And there is nothing in the NT to make me think that God won't fulfill those promises made in the OT. OR the prophecies. Do you realize what you are saying when you start choosing which prophecies will and won't be fulfilled the way they are written?

I mean, you accept the prophecies of the first coming as written, why not the second? You accept prophecies fulfilled in Israel's past as written, why not their future?

You say I ignore NT passages. Which do I ignore? What specific thing have I written that leads you to think I'm ignoring which specific passage? Let's talk about it. Or are you only speaking in generalities?

Much love!

No one has said what is written in the New makes the Old Covenant promises void. We have repeatedly shown from the New Testament how to understand the fulfillment of the promises of Old. Fulfillment is through Christ by the New Covenant He ushered in. You believe the prophesy of Old cannot yet be fulfilled because not all of the ethnic Jews have partaken of the New Covenant through the blood of Christ. You read another, or third re-gathering of ethnic Israel into the prophesy because you will not believe that God has said only the remnant of them shall be saved, even though you have been explicitly shown verses that say this. You think that when Christ comes again He will establish a Kingdom on this earth for one thousand years for ethnic Jews to learn through obedience to the Law restored that Christ alone shall save them. Are you not ignoring the verses from especially Hebrew that have been posted, which clearly show us the New Covenant has come through Christ, and that which is from the Old has been done away through Him?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus didn't say that we could forgive sins, however, He did give those men the authority to do so. At least, that's what the plain saying is, or so it seems to me.

There is no parallel passage to this one. So is this factual? Or no? And why, or why not?

Why is it that you ask me questions that I already answered? Did you somehow miss that I already addressed what I believe the passage means? Other scripture indicates that only God can forgive sins. Do you suppose we should take that into account when interpreting that passage? I do. Or do you think we should we change the meaning of the other passages to match a hyper-literal interpretation of this passage? I don't.

That the Apostles had the authority to remit - send away - sins, and that if they did so, those sins would be remitted? (I'm thinking same as you, by God's power, just the same, per the Apostle's declaration)

So, first, you act as if you disagree with me and then you say "I'm thinking same as you". Do you just enjoy disagreeing even when you don't actually disagree or what?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It would seem that he gives little to no heed about what is written concerning ethnic Israel in the NT. His doctrine comes from reading the Old Testament prophets while ignoring what is written in the New.

That is how it seems to me as well.

 

[marks]

So, first, you act as if you disagree with me and then you say "I'm thinking same as you". Do you just enjoy disagreeing even when you don't actually disagree or what?

It's what's in the paranthesis, that's what I agree with you on, that God Himself forgives sins.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

That is when the Bible states something plainly. For instance we have Biblical authority to say that in the parable of the tares, we know "the harvest" is the end of the age. This is plainly stated.

If we say that the angel seals 144,000 Jewish men, that also is plainly stated, so if I say that 144,000 Jewish men are sealed, that has Biblical authority. If someone were to say, it's not actually a numbered group like that, they would lack Biblical authority, unless, of course, there were a passage that tells us this is "the fullness of all believers", or whatever one might think it means other than a numbered group of Jewish men.

If there is such a passage, that gives the Biblical authority for that interpretation.

Does that help to clarify?

Much love!

It does not say 144,000 Jewish men are sealed.

Remember that Revelation uses strong symbolism throughout.

Rev ch7
Do not harm the land or sea or trees until we have sealed the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

4And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel:

5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

and from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? Not to me.

It all harmonizes. And there is nothing in the NT to make me think that God won't fulfill those promises made in the OT. OR the prophecies. Do you realize what you are saying when you start choosing which prophecies will and won't be fulfilled the way they are written?

I mean, you accept the prophecies of the first coming as written, why not the second?

Where in the OT does it make it clear that the Messiah would come to the earth from heaven, die for the sins of the world, rise again from the dead in 3 days and later ascend back to heaven? Are there any prophecies there that clearly spell these things out to the point where we could say they prophesy these things literally "as written"?

The fact is that some prophecy is literal and some is symbolic. Why act as if it's all literal? That makes no sense.

You say I ignore NT passages. Which do I ignore? What specific thing have I written that leads you to think I'm ignoring which specific passage? Let's talk about it. Or are you only speaking in generalities?

You weren't asking me specifically, but one that I think you ignore in the sense of what it actually says is Hebrews 8:6-13. I know you are aware of it and have read it, but it seems like you ignore where it says the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled by way of the establishment of the new covenant long ago.

Another passage that I think you are either ignoring or aren't aware of is Hebrews 11:8-16 where it talks about how Abraham and other OT saints came to the realization that the promised land they were looking for (a piece of land on the earth) was not what they really should be looking for since they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth and they realized they should instead look for a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God. In other words, they realized they should look for eternal things rather than temporary things. How does your doctrine line up with a passage like that? Why do your expectations for those Israelite saints differ from their own expectations of how God will fulfill His promises to them?

 

[marks]

Remember that Revelation uses strong symbolism throughout.

Are you saying everything in the Revelation is a symbol?

Or just some of it?

How do you know which parts?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's what's in the paranthesis, that's what I agree with you on, that God Himself forgives sins.

Right, I know. And that passage you referenced should be understood in light of that, right? That's my point.

 

[David in NJ]

Are you saying everything in the Revelation is a symbol?

Or just some of it?

How do you know which parts?

Much love!

Both literal and symbolic are intertwined.

 

[marks]

I know you are aware of it and have read it, but it seems like you ignore where it says the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled by way of the establishment of the new covenant long ago.

And this part?

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Right, I know. And that passage you referenced should be understood in light of that, right? That's my point.

Jesus gave those men the authority to remit sins, saying,

John 20:22-23 KJV
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now, Jesus did not say by whose power the sins are forgiven, only that the sins of those forgiven by the Apostles would in fact be forgiven, and those sins not forgiven by the Apostles would in fact not be forgiven.

Are you suggesting that's not actually the case?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Both literal and symbolic are intertwined.

How can you tell what's what?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And this part?

First, can you address my point? Do you agree with what I said or not? What was quoted specifically in Hebrews 8:8-12 was Jeremiah 31:31-34, not Jeremiah 31:35-37, so let's talk about that first. If we can't even agree on that, then it's pointless to talk about what follows that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus gave those men the authority to remit sins, saying,

John 20:22-23 KJV
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now, Jesus did not say by whose power the sins are forgiven, only that the sins of those forgiven by the Apostles would in fact be forgiven, and those sins not forgiven by the Apostles would in fact not be forgiven.

Are you suggesting that's not actually the case?

First, in order for me to answer that, we have to try to get on the same page so that we're talking about the same thing here. Do you agree that only God can forgive sins? Other scripture teaches that. Should we not interpret this passage in light of the passages which indicate that only God can forgive sins?

 

[David in NJ]

How can you tell what's what?

Much love!

As with all of Scripture, it comes with time, prayer, study and most important = the Holy Spirit.

Example:
Rev ch12 - Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth.

Rev ch20 - Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain.
2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

 

[marks]

As with all of Scripture, it comes with time, prayer, study and most important = the Holy Spirit.

Example:
Rev ch12 - Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth.

Rev ch20 - Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain.
2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years

In this case, we are told, so that's how we know.

Much love!

 

[marks]

First, in order for me to answer that, we have to try to get on the same page so that we're talking about the same thing here. Do you agree that only God can forgive sins? Other scripture teaches that. Should we not interpret this passage in light of the passages which indicate that only God can forgive sins?

Of course only God can forgive sins. Do you believe that the disciples were hereby given the authority to determine that forgiveness to be given? According as the words say?

 

[marks]

First, can you address my point? Do you agree with what I said or not? What was quoted specifically in Hebrews 8:8-12 was Jeremiah 31:31-34, not Jeremiah 31:35-37, so let's talk about that first. If we can't even agree on that , then it's pointless to talk about what follows that.

I brought up the passage to point to the part I'm pointing to. That's the part I'm talking about. As you said, Hebrews doesn't address that part.

We can talk about the new covenant, I don't mind, but it doesn't negate God's promises, whether OT or NT, and we should remember to believe His promises.

Much love!