Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What does that mean?I guess we've been speaking at cross purposes.
Huh?Sorry for taking your time.
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What does that mean?I guess we've been speaking at cross purposes.
Huh?Sorry for taking your time.
We all knew that, but we discussed these things, anyway. Mostly respectfully. But, if you have decided to end the discussion, then I'll just say thanks for the discussion. Though I may respond to other posts that I haven't read yet. Don't feel obligated to respond in kind if you don't want to.Like I've said, we all have very different ways of reading the Bible, and I knew at the beginning we wouldn't reach agreement because of it.
You, too.Everyone have a wonderful and blessed day!
Really? Not to me.
It all harmonizes. And there is nothing in the NT to make me think that God won't fulfill those promises made in the OT. OR the prophecies. Do you realize what you are saying when you start choosing which prophecies will and won't be fulfilled the way they are written?
I mean, you accept the prophecies of the first coming as written, why not the second? You accept prophecies fulfilled in Israel's past as written, why not their future?
You say I ignore NT passages. Which do I ignore? What specific thing have I written that leads you to think I'm ignoring which specific passage? Let's talk about it. Or are you only speaking in generalities?
Much love!
Why is it that you ask me questions that I already answered? Did you somehow miss that I already addressed what I believe the passage means? Other scripture indicates that only God can forgive sins. Do you suppose we should take that into account when interpreting that passage? I do. Or do you think we should we change the meaning of the other passages to match a hyper-literal interpretation of this passage? I don't.Jesus didn't say that we could forgive sins, however, He did give those men the authority to do so. At least, that's what the plain saying is, or so it seems to me.
There is no parallel passage to this one. So is this factual? Or no? And why, or why not?
So, first, you act as if you disagree with me and then you say "I'm thinking same as you". Do you just enjoy disagreeing even when you don't actually disagree or what?That the Apostles had the authority to remit - send away - sins, and that if they did so, those sins would be remitted? (I'm thinking same as you, by God's power, just the same, per the Apostle's declaration)
That is how it seems to me as well.It would seem that he gives little to no heed about what is written concerning ethnic Israel in the NT. His doctrine comes from reading the Old Testament prophets while ignoring what is written in the New.
It's what's in the paranthesis, that's what I agree with you on, that God Himself forgives sins.So, first, you act as if you disagree with me and then you say "I'm thinking same as you". Do you just enjoy disagreeing even when you don't actually disagree or what?
It does not say 144,000 Jewish men are sealed.That is when the Bible states something plainly. For instance we have Biblical authority to say that in the parable of the tares, we know "the harvest" is the end of the age. This is plainly stated.
If we say that the angel seals 144,000 Jewish men, that also is plainly stated, so if I say that 144,000 Jewish men are sealed, that has Biblical authority. If someone were to say, it's not actually a numbered group like that, they would lack Biblical authority, unless, of course, there were a passage that tells us this is "the fullness of all believers", or whatever one might think it means other than a numbered group of Jewish men.
If there is such a passage, that gives the Biblical authority for that interpretation.
Does that help to clarify?
Much love!
Where in the OT does it make it clear that the Messiah would come to the earth from heaven, die for the sins of the world, rise again from the dead in 3 days and later ascend back to heaven? Are there any prophecies there that clearly spell these things out to the point where we could say they prophesy these things literally "as written"?Really? Not to me.
It all harmonizes. And there is nothing in the NT to make me think that God won't fulfill those promises made in the OT. OR the prophecies. Do you realize what you are saying when you start choosing which prophecies will and won't be fulfilled the way they are written?
I mean, you accept the prophecies of the first coming as written, why not the second?
You weren't asking me specifically, but one that I think you ignore in the sense of what it actually says is Hebrews 8:6-13. I know you are aware of it and have read it, but it seems like you ignore where it says the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled by way of the establishment of the new covenant long ago.You say I ignore NT passages. Which do I ignore? What specific thing have I written that leads you to think I'm ignoring which specific passage? Let's talk about it. Or are you only speaking in generalities?
Are you saying everything in the Revelation is a symbol?Remember that Revelation uses strong symbolism throughout.
Right, I know. And that passage you referenced should be understood in light of that, right? That's my point.It's what's in the paranthesis, that's what I agree with you on, that God Himself forgives sins.
Both literal and symbolic are intertwined.Are you saying everything in the Revelation is a symbol?
Or just some of it?
How do you know which parts?
Much love!
And this part?I know you are aware of it and have read it, but it seems like you ignore where it says the prophecy from Jeremiah 31:31-34 was fulfilled by way of the establishment of the new covenant long ago.
Jesus gave those men the authority to remit sins, saying,Right, I know. And that passage you referenced should be understood in light of that, right? That's my point.
How can you tell what's what?Both literal and symbolic are intertwined.
First, can you address my point? Do you agree with what I said or not? What was quoted specifically in Hebrews 8:8-12 was Jeremiah 31:31-34, not Jeremiah 31:35-37, so let's talk about that first. If we can't even agree on that, then it's pointless to talk about what follows that.And this part?
First, in order for me to answer that, we have to try to get on the same page so that we're talking about the same thing here. Do you agree that only God can forgive sins? Other scripture teaches that. Should we not interpret this passage in light of the passages which indicate that only God can forgive sins?Jesus gave those men the authority to remit sins, saying,
John 20:22-23 KJV
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Now, Jesus did not say by whose power the sins are forgiven, only that the sins of those forgiven by the Apostles would in fact be forgiven, and those sins not forgiven by the Apostles would in fact not be forgiven.
Are you suggesting that's not actually the case?
As with all of Scripture, it comes with time, prayer, study and most important = the Holy Spirit.How can you tell what's what?
Much love!
In this case, we are told, so that's how we know.As with all of Scripture, it comes with time, prayer, study and most important = the Holy Spirit.
Example:
Rev ch12 - Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads. 4His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child as soon as she gave birth.
Rev ch20 - Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain.
2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years
Of course only God can forgive sins. Do you believe that the disciples were hereby given the authority to determine that forgiveness to be given? According as the words say?First, in order for me to answer that, we have to try to get on the same page so that we're talking about the same thing here. Do you agree that only God can forgive sins? Other scripture teaches that. Should we not interpret this passage in light of the passages which indicate that only God can forgive sins?
I brought up the passage to point to the part I'm pointing to. That's the part I'm talking about. As you said, Hebrews doesn't address that part.First, can you address my point? Do you agree with what I said or not? What was quoted specifically in Hebrews 8:8-12 was Jeremiah 31:31-34, not Jeremiah 31:35-37, so let's talk about that first. If we can't even agree on that , then it's pointless to talk about what follows that.