The Covering Dynamic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course only God can forgive sins. Do you believe that the disciples were hereby given the authority to determine that forgiveness to be given?

In and of themselves? No. By way of the Holy Spirit? Yes.

According as the words say?

If you took the words only by what they say it could lead to the conclusion that the disciples had the power and authority to forgive sins in and of themselves. But, that would contradict the fact that only God can forgive sins. So, since we know that only God can forgive sins we can safely conclude that the disciples could forgive sins, not by their own power or authority, but by God's power and authority working through them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I brought up the passage to point to the part I'm pointing to. That's the part I'm talking about. As you said, Hebrews doesn't address that part.

Well, I think it does address it in an indirect way since I believe the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37 fits the context of the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34. In other words, I see no reason to think that Jeremiah 31:35-37 has nothing at all to do with what is written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

We can talk about the new covenant, I don't mind, but it doesn't negate God's promises, whether OT or NT, and we should remember to believe His promises.

Are you saying you think the subject changed completely after Jeremiah 31:34 and that the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34 can't be used to help understand the context of Jeremiah 31:35-37? If so, I disagree with that. I believe that if we can't agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34, then we're not going to agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37, either, since the verses are all related to each other.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In this case, we are told, so that's how we know.

What about the cases where we're not told exactly what something means and not told specifically if the text is literal or symbolic? How do you go about understanding those scriptures?

 

[marks]

What about the cases where we're not told exactly what something means and not told specifically if the text is literal or symbolic? How do you go about understanding those scriptures?

Example please.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, I think it does address it in an indirect way since I believe the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37 fits the context of the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34. In other words, I see no reason to think that Jeremiah 31:35-37 has nothing at all to do with what is written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.


Are you saying you think the subject changed completely after Jeremiah 31:34 and that the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34 can't be used to help understand the context of Jeremiah 31:35-37? If so, I disagree with that. I believe that if we can't agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34, then we're not going to agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37, either, since the verses are all related to each other.

Show how the context of Jeremiah, and the Hebrews passage - in context - modifies or doesn't the part I'm talking about.

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Jesus gave those men the authority to remit sins, saying,

John 20:22-23 KJV
22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

Now, Jesus did not say by whose power the sins are forgiven, only that the sins of those forgiven by the Apostles would in fact be forgiven, and those sins not forgiven by the Apostles would in fact not be forgiven.

Are you suggesting that's not actually the case?

Much love!

It was only through the power of the Holy Spirit given the Apostles through the breath of Christ that through them the Holy Spirit gave them this ability. Just as the power Christ possessed came through the power of the Spirit in Him, so too this power given the Apostles of Christ only had this power through God, the Holy Spirit in them.

Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Mr 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

Joh 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Through the power of the Spirit in Christ's Apostles by demonstration of the Spirit of power in them, they possessed the mind of Christ, and ability to judge through Him.

Micah 3:8 (KJV) But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

1 Corinthians 2:4 (KJV) And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

1 Corinthians 2:12-16 (KJV) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[rwb]

I brought up the passage to point to the part I'm pointing to. That's the part I'm talking about. As you said, Hebrews doesn't address that part.

We can talk about the new covenant, I don't mind, but it doesn't negate God's promises, whether OT or NT, and we should remember to believe His promises.

Much love!

What you are not understanding is how the New Covenant enlarges upon what is written of Old. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but ONE people in Christ. When we read in the New Testament that Israel is no longer comprised of ethnic people (Jews only) but is in fact "all Israel that shall be saved" AFTER Gentiles of faith are grafted into the good olive tree, or Israel of faith together with them. All Israel cannot be exclusively Jewish since Gentiles of faith are included with them.

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You speak as though you believe Christ will come again to fulfill the Covenant prophecies of Old to ethnic Israel. But once again, you must acknowledge that Israel since the first coming of Christ is a spiritual people, and in truth prophesy of salvation for the Old Covenant nation of Israel has always included only those Old Covenant people of faith. Those who believed the Covenant promise the Messiah would come to cleanse them from all sin and redeem them from death. Apart from faith NONE, old or new shall be eternally saved through Christ.

 

[David in NJ]

In this case, we are told, so that's how we know.

Much love!

Correct

Scripture presents its own interpretation on much of the symbolism.

Rev ch21
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying,
“Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”
And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he who talked with me had a gold reed to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. The city is laid out as a square; its length is as great as its breadth.
And he measured the city with the reed: twelve thousand furlongs. Its length, breadth, and height are equal.
Then he measured its wall: one hundred and forty-four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of an angel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Show how the context of Jeremiah, and the Hebrews passage - in context - modifies or doesn't the part I'm talking about.

You're always expecting me to answer your questions and address your points before you address mine. First, can you tell me if you think Jeremiah 31:35-37 has any relation at all to Jeremiah 31:31-34 or do you think he completely changed the subject in verse 35?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What about the cases where we're not told exactly what something means and not told specifically if the text is literal or symbolic? How do you go about understanding those scriptures?

Example please.

One example would be the two witnesses described in Revelation 11. We're given some information about them, but not told the exact identity and not told specifically if they are two individuals or if they symbolically represent something besides two literal individual witnesses.

Another example would be mystery Babylon. Again, we are given some information about it, but not given the exact identity of it and not told specifically whether it's a literal city or symbolic city.

How do you go about determining who or what the two witnesses are and whether or not they should be understood as two individuals or something else?

How do you go about determining the identity of mystery Babylon and determining whether it is a literal, physical city or a symbolic city?

 

[Truth7t7]

Have a blessed day!

Much love!

The Church is the Israel of God, children of the promised seed

Much Love, Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Timtofly]

Yes indeed Jesus is our great priest.

And, Israel will always remain a nation before God.

Jeremiah 31:35-37
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
(37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Much love!

Israel will be replaced by the New Jerusalem. But that is still over a thousand years away.

The church is this, not a nation:

"the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth."

Also in Matthew 21, it was not Israel that was taken away as a nation. The nation itself lost the relationship of the kingdom of God, whose king was God, never an earthly king sitting on a throne.

Israel did not stop being a nation. They stopped being God's ambassador and caretaker of God's kingdom on earth. Of course they were a scattered nation all over the earth. But that is no different than the church as a mountain filling the whole earth. Not a nation that governs the earth. A people who represents the kingdom of God on the earth. The church trying to govern all of humanity is as futile as if Israel attempted to do just that.

And the church is not even the denominational ideology. Obviously the church has a fractured identity. So much so that what is left after the rapture/Second Coming will be mystery Babylon. That is why the lost sheep will have to be separated from the tangled mess of the nations. The wheat will have to be separated from the tares. That is what the apostate point in Scripture is all about. The roles will reverse once more. The kingdom of God will be taken from the "church" left behind, and given to redeemed Israel, and as a restored nation will rule the earth. Because at that point Jesus will point out, "all those of the church are not the church". They thought they were, but they did not escape. They are not even worthy to be representatives and in the same boat as first century scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees.

That is why I find it strange that no one can see that many will be left of the church during Jacob's trouble, and Satan's AoD. Many here even claim they are that church that sticks around through the whole thing. Just like the scribes and the religious people of that day, all stuck it out and killed each other, and were eventually killed off in 70AD. They obviously ignored the warning of those first century Christians, who warned them to change their ways and forget about trying to set up a human kingdom that God vacated many years prior. What does this pseudo church think they are going to accomplish more than Jesus, sitting on a throne in Jerusalem, with His 144k disciples, and all the angels? The 144k are not the church. They are the firstfruits of a restored Israel along with the sheep of Israel. The church was glorified in the air, prior to Jesus sitting on the throne in Jerusalem. It will now be redeemed Israel warning the "church" to repent and leave their deception behind.

The church did escape. Those wanting to stay during Jacob's trouble and show they can endure to the end will find themselves as the scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees of the post rapture/Second Coming event. They will hear Jesus now say the kingdom of God has been taken from you and given to Israel, a nation restored by God in preparation of the Day of the Lord.

Of course Israel today will have not done much to be found worthy, except all those who did something for the least of those of the church prior to the rapture.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I think it does address it in an indirect way since I believe the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37 fits the context of the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34. In other words, I see no reason to think that Jeremiah 31:35-37 has nothing at all to do with what is written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.


Are you saying you think the subject changed completely after Jeremiah 31:34 and that the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34 can't be used to help understand the context of Jeremiah 31:35-37? If so, I disagree with that. I believe that if we can't agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:31-34, then we're not going to agree on the meaning of Jeremiah 31:35-37, either, since the verses are all related to each other.

Jeremiah chapter 31 & 32 represents Israel returning from the 70 year Babylonian captivity to Jerusalem

 

[Timtofly]

I believe that is a useless concept then since we don't all always agree on when the Bible is stating something plainly. Who is the one who gets to decide what is supposedly stated plainly? You?


I agree with that. That was a case where Jesus explained exactly what something in a parable meant in reality.


It seems to me that "Biblical authority" doesn't mean much in that case since you seem to define that to mean that we should assume that a statement like that should be taken literally. To me, Biblical authority would mean that it means whatever God intended it to mean, even if it's not meant to be interpreted literally. And it would mean that the meaning of it does not contradict any other scripture.

I don't believe it is intended to be interpreted literally in terms of being a literal 144,000 or of being all men. You say it is all men because it describes them as virgins who have not been defiled with women, right? But, we have scripture which talks about believers in terms of being virgins spiritually.

2 Corinthians 11:1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

There is a symbolic evil entity described in Revelation called mystery Babylon and it is described as a harlot woman. So, is there any reason that the virgins who don't defile themselves with women couldn't be virgins in a spiritual sense (pure spiritually) who don't defile themselves with evil spiritual "women" like mystery Babylon? I don't believe so. I would say we have Biblical Authority to allow for that possibility.

The other thing to consider here regarding that particular scripture is to ask why God would separate out virgin men as a special group? Does that really make sense? Does God favor single men over married men for some reason? Is God sexist like that where He wouldn't want any women to be in a special group like that? I thought there was neither male nor female in the church (Galatians 3:26-28)? If God was going to set aside a special group like that, I see no basis for thinking it would only consist of single men and no married men, no women and no children. It seems to me that God would put an emphasis on people being virgins spiritually moreso than sexually. If it had to do with being virgins sexually then why just men and not women virgins, also?

The 144k were not chosen because of a certain criteria. They were humans chosen by God with those attributes. The 144k are not the church, so no one has to reason away God's Word to come to some human understanding of who they were. Out of 8 billion people on earth, you doubt there are 144k male humans that fit that description?

That point does not contradict any other Scripture. When it comes to Israel, God does place an emphasis on males. Do you think 6 of Jacob's sons should have been females as an equal opportunity where male and females are equally represented?

 

[Timtofly]

You think that when Christ comes again He will establish a Kingdom on this earth for one thousand years for ethnic Jews to learn through obedience to the Law restored that Christ alone shall save them. Are you not ignoring the verses from especially Hebrew that have been posted, which clearly show us the New Covenant has come through Christ, and that which is from the Old has been done away through Him?

That is not what is thought. That is not even Scripture. Jews are not the remnant of Israel. A remnant is a representation of every tribe of Israel, not just one tribe.

The New Covenant established is not the point either. The point that all of Israel, not just one tribe, is changed and redeemed. And not everyone either. Some will be cast out as goats, and a third redeemed as sheep.

You change Matthew 25:31-46 to not being about Israel, but being about all of non Israel, the Gentiles. You claim the sheep are the church, and the goats are unbelievers. Matthew 25:31-46 is not about the church. It is about after the Second Coming, and the church is already removed and in Paradise.

That is why it is called Jacob's trouble. It is not called the church's tribulation.

And in the Day of the Lord it is not about obedience. It is about having obedience written in one's heart and mind. That is from birth until the very end of the Day of the Lord. That is not the church living out obedience in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. It is the total removal of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those on earth will be as Adam and Eve prior to Adam's disobedience. All they needed to know was written in their heart and mind. They did not need to eat from that tree to gain a knowledge that was useful to them. They already had all the knowledge they needed to raise a family for thousands of years.

That is the point Jeremiah was making. Instead of living out the old in the flesh, they would be given new flesh, and the New Covenant would be ingrained in that new flesh.

 

[Zao is life]

This thread is for Blood Washed Born-Again Believers in Jesus Christ our LORD
Acceptance or rejection of this thread does not question your Salvation in Christ.


Here is your first evidence to know that pre-trib rapture is not Truth and never came from God = 'timing'


The entire Scriptures only speak of 2 Comings of the LORD MESSIAH to earth to appear before all the world:

#1 - His First Coming as prophesied = Suffering Servant to bear our sins/Jonah 3 days buried then Resurrection/Genesis Abraham & Isaac


#2 - His Second Coming = Story of Joseph and Prophet Daniel include His 1st and 2nd Coming and Zech ch14 His Second Coming

These are not exaustive but easily the most prominent OT Prophecies and/or allegorical prophecy(s).


NT Gospel, Apostle writings and Revelation only speak of His 1st and 2nd Coming


Anyone who says other does so of their own volition for it is a 'man-made' doctrine = i am being gracious here.....

Just as the Jews have a covering over their minds whenever the Scriptures are read, so also does a person who believes in pre-trib rapture.

That covering was placed there by 'falsehood' and because the heart believes it to be true, the mind cannot/will not accept the actual Truth.

This 'covering' is enforced daily by the religious system that will not yield itself unto correction by the Holy Spirit.

As with all 'coverings' God allows it to remain upon the individual as HE sees fit according to the persons heart = Prophet Jeremiah

“The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?
I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings."

“An astonishing and horrible thing
Has been committed in the land:
The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?"

I've learned that - at least it's my opinion that - what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

Jesus said, "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

In the New Testament, the words that translate into English as tribulation, trouble, persecution, etc are found in all these verses:-

Persecution Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation Of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: mégas thlîpsis)" The adjective appears in front of the word tribulation only three times in the New Testament:

Great tribulation mentioned as the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22 & Revelation 7:14:

Great tribulation is first mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21 (parallel Mark 13:19) *

Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20):

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

In Luke 21:20-24 Luke is writing about what Jesus said regarding the wrath of God that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would face when armies gather against the city and destroy the city,

but the tribulation or persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is mentioned in Luke 21:12-19; as well as in Matthew 24:9-10 and Mark 13:9-13; and their redemption (ending their tribulation), is mentioned in Luke 21:25-36; Matthew 24:29-51; and Mark 13:24-37.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

In this sense (in the sense that the New Testament speaks of tribulation), a pre-tribulation rapture = a church age and a group of people who will never face tribulation, let alone great tribulation, which flies against what Jesus and His apostles repeatedly taught.

But I do believe that what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

 

[David in NJ]

I've learned that - at least it's my opinion that - what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

Jesus said, "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

In the New Testament, the words that translate into English as tribulation, trouble, persecution, etc are found in all these verses:-

Persecution Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation Of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: mégas thlîpsis)" The adjective appears in front of the word tribulation only three times in the New Testament:
Great tribulation mentioned as the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22 & Revelation 7:14:

Great tribulation is first mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21 (parallel Mark 13:19) *

Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20):

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

In Luke 21:20-24 Luke is writing about what Jesus said regarding the wrath of God that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would face when armies gather against the city and destroy the city,

but the tribulation or persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is mentioned in Luke 21:12-19; as well as in Matthew 24:9-10 and Mark 13:9-13; and their redemption (ending their tribulation), is mentioned in Luke 21:25-36; Matthew 24:29-51; and Mark 13:24-37.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

In this sense (in the sense that the New Testament speaks of tribulation), a pre-tribulation rapture = a church age and a group of people who will never face tribulation, let alone great tribulation, which flies against what Jesus and His apostles repeatedly taught.

But I do believe that what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

Key words that you used = "they think"

Key words to Truth = "Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy word is Truth." John ch17

Key words to Understanding = Proverbs 30:5-6

 

[David in NJ]

I've learned that - at least it's my opinion that - what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

Jesus said, "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world." John 16:33.

In the New Testament, the words that translate into English as tribulation, trouble, persecution, etc are found in all these verses:-

Persecution Of Jesus: John 5:16

Persecution of Christians: Matthew 5:10-12; John 15:20; Acts 22:4; Acts 26:11; 1 Corinthians 4:12; 1 Corinthians 15:9; 2 Corinthians 4:9; Galatians 1:13 & 23; Galatians 4:29; Galatians 5:11

Persecution of the woman who gave birth to the Messiah: Revelation 12:13

Tribulation Of apostles or Christians: Matthew 13:21 (Parallel: Mark 4:17); Matthew 24:9 & 29 (Parallel Mark 13:24); John 16:33; Acts 11:19; Acts 14:22; Acts 20:23; Romans 5:3; Romans 8:35; Romans 12:12; 2 Corinthians 1:4, 6 & 8; 2 Corinthians 2:4; 2 Corinthians 4:8; 2 Corinthians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 6:4; 2 Corinthians 7:4-5; 2 Corinthians 8:2; Ephesians 3:13; Philippians 1:16; Philippians 4:14; Colossians 1:24; 1 Thessalonians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 3:3-4 & 7; 2 Thessalonians 1:4, 6-7; 2 Timothy 1:8; 2 Timothy 3:11; 2 Timothy 4:5; Hebrews 10:32-33; 1 Peter 5:9; Revelation 1:9; Revelation 2:9-10, 22; Revelation 7:14.

GREAT TRIBULATION (Greek: mégas thlîpsis)" The adjective appears in front of the word tribulation only three times in the New Testament:
Great tribulation mentioned as the experience of Christians: Revelation 2:22 & Revelation 7:14:

Great tribulation is first mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse: Matthew 24:21 (parallel Mark 13:19) *

Matthew 24:21-22 (Parallel: Mark 13:19-20):

"for then shall be mégas thlîpsis (great tribulation), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days should be shortened, no flesh would be saved. But for the elect's sake, those days shall be shortened." (Also see Matthew 24:9).

* Luke 21:23 uses the words great distress and wrath to describe what was to come upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem (not the word tribulation):

"But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress [anánkē] in the land and wrath [orgḗ] on this people."

In Luke 21:20-24 Luke is writing about what Jesus said regarding the wrath of God that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would face when armies gather against the city and destroy the city,

but the tribulation or persecution of the disciples of Jesus in the days leading up to the coming of the Son of man is mentioned in Luke 21:12-19; as well as in Matthew 24:9-10 and Mark 13:9-13; and their redemption (ending their tribulation), is mentioned in Luke 21:25-36; Matthew 24:29-51; and Mark 13:24-37.

There are only two verses in the New Testament referring to tribulation experienced by non-Christians:-

1. Of all who do evil: Romans 2:9.
2. Of the world as repayment for bringing tribulation upon the saints: 2 Thessalonians 1:6.

In this sense (in the sense that the New Testament speaks of tribulation), a pre-tribulation rapture = a church age and a group of people who will never face tribulation, let alone great tribulation, which flies against what Jesus and His apostles repeatedly taught.

But I do believe that what those who talk about a pre-trib rapture actually have in their minds when they use the term tribulation, is wrath, i.e they think they are advocating for a pre-wrath rapture.

Every religion and every false teaching uses the same method of 'covering' over the minds/hearts of the people.

It has always been an 'epidemic'.

There is only one 'cure' = Matthew 4:4, John 14:15-18, Acts ch1 & ch2

The first 'covering' = Genesis ch3 = "Did God really say........."

 

[Zao is life]

Key words that you used = "they think"

Key words to Truth = "Sanctify them in the Truth, Thy word is Truth." John ch17

Key words to Understanding = Proverbs 30:5-6

Yes. The left-behind series and popular novels like that caused a lot of damage by conflating the term "great tribulation" with the wrath of God coming upon the world. It takes self-study of the Bible to clear the mind. Some do want the Word of God to clear their minds, others not (2 Timothy 4:3).

But until it's pointed out what "tribulation" and "great tribulation" actually refer to in the New Testament, in each verse the terms are found, those who are under a wrong belief system because of what they were taught or what they heard cannot be blamed.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes. The left-behind series and popular novels like that caused a lot of damage by conflating the term "great tribulation" with the wrath of God coming upon the world. It takes self-study of the Bible to clear the mind. Some do want the Word of God to clear their minds, others not (2 Timothy 4:3).

But until it's pointed out what "tribulation" and "great tribulation" actually refer to in the New Testament, in each verse the terms are found, those who are under a wrong belief system because of what they were taught or what they heard cannot be blamed.

Agree
This thread is about identifying those man-made 'coverings' and how to remove them.
Without prejudice on the believer/saint BUT with prejudice against the 'coverings'.