CoreIssue
Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time to reply. Not sure about all the rest only;
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
Two salvation's. Only one.
The rest said is just too much to take on.
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Thank you for taking the time to reply. Not sure about all the rest only;
Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
The fourth beast, Rome, was predominantly western Europe. The succession of beasts began in what today are Muslim nations, but preceeded west, from Babylon to Persia to Greece, then Rome. I am not saying the RCC ruled at any time over all that territory. It did rule in western Europe however, and it was in western Europe that the ten horns arose, the little horn arose (Papal Rome) and ruled there. In the NT era however, those literal local powers are continued as heads on the beast representing global spiritual powers. Beginning with Catholicism, then Protestantism, the atheism. Three powers, three remaining heads of the seven, three beasts in the NT era, Revelation 11 and Revelation 13.Brakelite, your position fits neatly into a spiritualization, but bears no true resemblance to the natural. Yes the beasts of Revelation 13:1-3 parallel the beasts of Daniel 7, and the territories these beast empires ruled over militarily cover the land now ruled over by purely MUSLIM nations. To say Catholicism holds sway over this region, or ever will, is too big a stretch for me.
I am not saying the RCC ruled at any time over all that territory.
Indeed...globally...as the integral part of Babylon the Great riding the global state power, the final manifestation of Satan's ambition to rule the planet and be worshiped through his proxy. BtG will be composed of every religion under the sun...they will likely all retain their own peculiar names and practices (the Vatican has never, since the time of Constantine, been averse to accepting anyone into her fold along with their pagan practices) and this will include apostate Protestants. It will be a simple matter of accepting papal authority.For it to be a true fulfillment then at some point the RCC would need to
Not the fourth beast HIH. As I will show a little later, the fourth beast morphs into another form. Pagan Rome becomes Papal Rome...the "5th" beast if you will of Revelation 13:1-3. That 5th beast is the little horn all grown up.There is every suggestion from both history and Revelation 13:2 that the fourth beast will rule
Thus far we have dealt with 5 of the criteria essential in identifying, all of them associated with the"little horn" of Daniel 7. Those criteria all, without exception, positively identify the papal church of Rome as the Antichrist of scripture. Those criteria more proved are...
That leaves 5 to go. The next on the list is found in Daniel 7:25...he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. Now how many times has persecution been brought up on Christian forums. Often right? We have heard it all before...but really? Are you sure?
- Grew out of the pagan Roman Empire, this is definitely of Roman origin.
- Grew up among the 10 horns.,
- Came up after them, therefore had to rebe sometime after 476ad
- Was instrumental in uprooting 3 of the 10.
- Spoke great words against the Most High, in other words, spoke blasphemy, claiming prerogatives that belong only to God.
Persecution by the church of Rome wasn’t just a few incidental instances over a period of a couple of years by a few misguided zealots. It was a matter of established policy.
Let us look for example at the Holy Office of the Inquisition. An office by the way that still exists today albeit, unsurprisingly, under a different name. The recently retired pope Benedict being the former head of that esteemed office.
The origins of this organism can be clearly traced to 1227-1233 A. D., during the pontificate of Gregory IX. In 1229 the church council of Tolouse condemned the Albigenses in France and gave orders to exterminate them. In 1231 Gregory IX in his bull, Excommunicamus, condemned all heretics and proclaimed specific laws on how to deal with them. Among the provisions were the following:
1. Delivery of heretics to the civil power.
2. Excommunication of all heretics as well as their defenders, followers, friends, and even those who failed to turn them in.
3. Life imprisonment for all impenitent heretics.
4. Heretics were denied the right to appeal their sentence.
5. Those suspected of heresy had no right to be defended by counsel.
6. Children of heretics were disqualified from holding a church office until the second generation.
7. Heretics who had died without being punished were to be exhumed and their bodies burned.
8. The homes of convicted heretics were to be demolished. (See, G. Barraclough, The Medieval Papacy, London, 1968, edited by Thames and Hudson, p. 128; and R. I Moore,
“The Origins of Medieval Heresy”, in History, vol. 55 (1970), pp. 21-36).
In The Decretals of Gregory IX we find the following:
“Temporal princes shall be reminded and exhorted, and if need be, compelled by spiritual censures, to discharge every one of their functions; and that, as they desire to be reckoned and held faithful, so, for the defense of the faith, let them publicly make oath that they will endeavor, bona fide with all their might, to extirpate from their territories all heretics marked by the church; so that when any one is about to assume any authority, whether spiritual or temporal, he shall be held bound to confirm his title by this oath. And if a temporal prince, being required and admonished by the church, shall neglect to purge his kingdom from this heretical pravity, the metropolitan and other provincial bishops shall bind him in fetters of excommunication; and if he obstinately refuse to make satisfaction this shall be notified within a year to the Supreme Pontiff, that then he may declare his subjects absolved from their allegiance, and leave their lands to be occupied by Catholics, who, the heretics being exterminated, may possess them unchallenged, and preserve them in the purity of the faith.”
(The Decretals of Gregory IX, book 5, title 7, chapter 13).
During the pontificate of Innocent IV (1241-1253), the mechanism of the Inquisition was further developed. In the papal bull Ad Extirpanda (1252), the following provisions were given the force of law:
1. Torture must be applied to heretics so as to secure confessions.
2. Those found guilty must be burned at the stake.
3. A police force must be established to serve the needs of the Inquisition.
4. A proclamation of a crusade against all heretics in Italy. Those participating in this crusade were to be extended the same privileges and indulgences as those who went on crusades to the Holy Land. (Read the story of the Waldenses if you have any doubts as to the horrors of those times.)
5. The heirs of heretics were to have their goods confiscated as well.
The Catholic Encyclopedia explains:
“In the Bull ‘Ad exstirpanda’ (1252) Innocent IV says: ‘When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podesta or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them’. . . Nor could any doubt remain as to what civil regulations were meant, for the passages which ordered the burning of the impenitent heretics were inserted in the papal decretals from the imperial constitutions Commissis nobis’ and Inconsutibilem tunicam. The aforesaid Bull ‘Ad exstirpanda’ remained thenceforth a fundamental document of the Inquisition, renewed or re-enforced by several popes, Alexander IV (1254-61), Clement IV (1265-68), Nicholas
IV (1288-92), Boniface VIII (1294-1303), and others. The civil authorities, therefore, were enjoined by the popes, under pain of excommunication to execute the legal sentences that condemned impenitent heretics to the stake”. (Joseph Blotzer, article, ‘Inquisition’, vol. VIII, p. 34).
The savagery of Innocent the IV has led the Roman Catholic historian, Peter de Rosa, to state:
“In [Pope] Innocent’s view, it was more wicked for Albigenses to call him the antichrist than for him to prove it by burning them–men, women, and children by the thousands.”
(Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ, p. 225).
Now some here of course may believe that only a few popes were bad, the rest devoutly holy men going about the business of lovingly leading people to Christ.
de Rosa makes this telling comment: “Of eighty popes in a line from the thirteenth century on, not one of them disapproved of the theology and apparatus of the Inquisition. On the contrary, one after another added his own cruel touches to the workings of this deadly machine.”
(Peter de Rosa, Vicars of Christ, pp. 175-176).
While the RCC displays many characteristics of the Antichrist, it is the Antichrist -- a man -- who presents himself as God and Christ. This is the key distinction between a false religious system and the man who controls it. Revelation 13 is all about that evil man and how he controls the world for 3 1/2 years (42 months).For it to be a true fulfillment then at some point the RCC would need to. There is every suggestion from both history and Revelation 13:2 that the fourth beast will rule over the same territory as the previous three did, and not just spiritually but militarily.
While the RCC displays many characteristics of the Antichrist, it is the Antichrist -- a man -- who presents himself as God and Christ. This is the key distinction between a false religious system and the man who controls it. Revelation 13 is all about that evil man and how he controls the world for 3 1/2 years (42 months).
throughout scriptural prophecy, the beasts represent kingdoms. Though said kingdom no doubt has a king, the span of time those beasts reigned must mean a succession of Kings or Queens. Please see post number 6 on this thread.. Revelation 13 is all about that evil man and how he controls the world for 3 1/2 years (42 months).
I agree but the 3 1/2 half years are not literal. They are a symbol already fulfilled by the Papacy over the centuries as the Antichrist.While the RCC displays many characteristics of the Antichrist, it is the Antichrist -- a man -- who presents himself as God and Christ. This is the key distinction between a false religious system and the man who controls it. Revelation 13 is all about that evil man and how he controls the world for 3 1/2 years (42 months).
I sense that you do not fully understand what historicism actually is...you are confusing it with preterism.
Were Seventh Day Adventists the first to use the historicist hermeneutinc to understand prophecy? Did they invent this approach to sustain certain prophetic interpretations that popular theology rejected? No. Most commentators right from the early church recognised the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 as successive phases of Christianity from the time of John to the consummation of all things.
The 7 seals also were recognised as reflecting successive phases of Christianity from John to the second coming. For example, Ambrose, Bishop of Havilburg writing in the 12 century said, “The white horse typifies the earliest state of spiritual gifts and the rider, Christ, with the bow of evangelical doctrine…the red horse is the next state of the church, red with the blood of martyrdom; from Stephen the protomartyr to the martyrs under Diocletian…the black horse depicts the church’s 3rd state, blackened after Constantine’s time with heresies…the pale horse signified the church’s 4th state; coloured with the hue of hypocrisy.” He said this state commenced from the beginning of the 5th century. This historicist view of the seals was the usual view of expositors down through the centuries.
The trumpets also were considered an historical overview of the rise and fall of secular kingdoms from the time of Christ to the future second advent. Scholars such as Daubuz, Mede, Jurieu, along with most all reformation protestants saw the trumpets 1-6 as depicting the desolations and fall of first the western empire of Rome and then the eastern. In 1802 Gulloway, in harmony with many others, viewed the first 4 trumpets as a picture of the Gothic invasions of the west, the 5th and 6th trumpets or the first 2 of the 3 ‘woes’, as depicting the invasions of the Saracens and the Turks in the east.
The prophecies of Daniel can be readily understood by using the historicist approach. Futurism and preterism both leave many unanswered questions, many unfulfilled details, and tend to make prophetic interpretation look more like guesswork and wishful thinking rather than the accurate study and strengthening of faith that it can be.
The image of Daniel 2 sets the foundation for every subsequent vision and prophecy from Daniel to Revelation. What God has set down as His word in Daniel 2 cannot be altered to suit one’s false theories when it comes to studying Revelation. All subsequent prophecies are to be studied on the principle of ‘repeat and enlarge’. That is, once Daniel 2 is understood, any further consideration of later visions must be based on Daniel 2, only with the addition of further detail. Daniel 2 sets the scene, everything else must fit into what Daniel 2 has laid down as the bottom line. For example, there is no gap between the legs of iron (Pagan Rome) and the iron/clay mix of the feet. The feet are not to be amputated in order to fit the futurist perspective of the future. History is an unbroken progression...prophecy predicted it as an unbroken progression...to place gaps and discard 1500 to 2000 years of history because its inconvenient in effect hides the true Antichrist from view as we shall see as we progress in this study.
Yes, it's always been this way. True Biblical Christianity always involves a pilgrimage and separation.Ah yes "...a form of religion, but deny the power thereof." ♥