This is false doctrine. Christ laid down His life, and after three days He took it up again. God and Christ owed the devil ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And Christ also deliberately chose when He would "give up the ghost" (expire). He died earlier than would have been expected under crucifixion, so that not a bone of His was broken.
The Cross and The Devil
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I just realized . . . this part starts off this way, defining horizo as predetermined. Horizo is boundary, limit, like that.
Much love!
This is my point exactly.
Well . . . actually, this seems to be saying that "Foreknowledge", a noun, means to "know beforehand", which would be a verb.
But the point being, proginosko, the verb, is, I advance-know. Or in friendlier English, I know in advance, or, I know ahead of.
Much love!
Personally I don't think it's necessary to dicuss grammar and Greek, etc.
The N. T. Is clear in the english, or Italian, or Spanish...
You get the idea.
God is spirit,,, not a language lesson.
ScottA
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Certainly there is no greater evil than Satan and the killing of Christ. Thus, it is not wrong to say that it was at the hand of Satan, or even at the hand of the Romans, or the jeering crowds of Jews, or the sins of all the world. However, as a forfeit by Christ (a sacrifice), it is a hollow claim. Rightfully, it is not life for life, but rather death for death. As such, the matter is best determined by the greater victory and the greater loss.
It is faithful doctrine based in 1 Timothy 2:6. Jesus gave His life as a ransom for many.
HI M
It's nice that you could have this conversation with the other member,,,
But you came up with what we've been saying all along.
So does it help you to know Greek?
Has it changed your beliefs at any time?
While I don't question whether God knew ahead of time that Jesus would die for us, I do question whether Jesus is describe as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".
. . . those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
When divided into clauses, this is, I believe, "those whose names are not written", "in the book of life", "of the Lamb slain", "from the foundation of the world."
Since Koine Greek, unlike English, uses syntax instead of word order to show relationships, and uses word order to show emphasis, these clauses, to be grammatically accurate, attach to each other according to their syntax. Without going into everything, as I'm going off memory at the moment
"from the foundation of the world" grammatically can attach to either "of the Lamb slain", or equally, "those whose names are not written".So how to clear the dilemma? The parallel passage.
Revelation 18:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
Maybe little more than a rabbit trail here . . .
Not written . . . perfect tense, those whose names do not remain written.
God told Moses that the one who sins shall be blotted from His book. Seems to me that God wrote a book of all those who would ever live, maybe by that new name to be given. And that those who are redeemed, life is imputed to them, and their names remain. But those who are not the redeemed, their sins cause their names to be blotted out, one by one, as our loving Father erases the names of those whom He created.
In my view, created to love.
Much love!
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Hi Anthony,
Just to let you know, I'm skipping over these quotations from "authoritative sources" that lack a specific Scriptural assertion.
Much love!
Hi GG,
I think it is nice! I appreciate Anthony's willingness to converse with me.
And I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who thinks this way! But just the same I do have to go with my convictions, as we all do.
Helpful to know Greek? Well, I'd be the last on to say I actually know Greek, I don't but I've had some schooling, and lot's of home study, and I've found it extremely helpful. It just depends.
But then I routinely use a number of English translations too. And of course there are differences in manuscripts, and on and on it goes, but God teaches us truth.
Much love!
I only wish to believe the truth. What you present is your belief which you think is truth. Should I believe it simply because you do? Should I believe it because many in the past have believed it or currently do believe it? Does a person receive his faith from another person or even a group of persons? Or is it God that gives the increase as Paul wrote? Are you God? I certainly am not!
Again you want me to presume that what you believe is the truth. Am I supposed to meekly follow after you? What did even Paul say to those who would follow him?
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." I Cor 11:1
Why is it that you added to the words of the scripture you insertions in parenthesis & brackets if it is all understood on its face? You are posting verses which might support your beliefs or mine, but you don't want to consider seriously the details of what I believe. You simply want all of the readers to presume you are right because so many others believe the way you do. Is the truth more than what we believe when it is different? How many of the Jewish leadership believed what Jesus taught instead of what they thought they knew?
I have heard that message from many people for much of my life, but that does not make it so, does it? Again you insist that I believe what you believe. That is not how God works:
"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7
Anthony D'Arienzo
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From Calvinism/ Arminianism...by WR.Downing
426 Believers are addressed as the elect of God—those eternally beloved by God and so in his thought and purpose—to encourage them to persevere in prayer.
427 Divine foreordination precedes faith, not the reverse.
428 This is a very general survey of the eternal covenant of redemption and grace. The term “foreknew” refers to persons, not things or incidents, and necessarily implies a personal, intimate relationship. (For a full discussion of foreknowledge, see Appendix 1 on Predestination).
The terms “predestinate,” “called,” “justified” and “glorified” are all aor. (o[ti ou]j proe,gnw( kai. prow,risen summo,rfouj th/j eivko,noj tou/ ui`ou/ auvtou/( eivj to. ei=nai auvto.n prwto,tokon evn polloi/j avdelfoi/j\ ou]j de. prow,risen( tou,touj kai. evka,lesen\ kai. ou]j evka,lesen( tou,touj kai. evdikai,wsen\ ou]j de. evdikai,wsen( tou,touj kai. evdo,xasen), implying that all are already settled or infallible in the purpose of God. Note that the same group is referred to throughout—the covenant people of God (Jn. 17:1–2; Eph. 1:3–7). 429 Here election is pointedly apart from works, human ability or foreseen faith. The issue cannot be side–stepped by stating that this refers to the nations of Israel and Edom by referring to Mal. 1:3, for Paul under inspiration uses that reference to enforce the reality that the Divine prerogative in election was true not only to the nations, but to the individuals—and even before they were born or had done any good or evil, i.e., apart from any and all human character or action. 430 This is a clear and concise statement concerning the Divine prerogative in both judgment and mercy. Man’s “free will” may take him to hell, but it will never take him to heaven. Salvation is a matter of Divine grace. 155
grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom. 11:4–7)431
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom. 11:28)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor. 1:27–29)432
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Eph. 1:3–5)433
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph. 1:11)434
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering. (Col. 3:12)435
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. (1 Thess. 1:4–5)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:9)436
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (2 Thess. 2:13)
431 Works and grace are absolutely separate and distinct. Should there be anything at all in any person to cause God to look favorably upon him or her, then salvation would be by works, human ability, or human effort—and the principle of grace would be destroyed. 432 If salvation were by foreseen faith, then it would be by human merit and believers would have legitimate reason for glorying or boasting. 433 Election and predestination are considered as great blessings that derive from the sovereign choice and predestinating grace of God. Cf. v. 4: evxele,xato, aor. mid. for emphasis. Either he himself and no other chose us, or he chose us out for himself.
Divine election was not based on foreseen faith, but in order that we might be holy and without blame before him. 434 The term “obtained” (evklhrw,qhmen) means to obtain by lot, and approaches the idea of Divine election. Note the same term in Acts 17:4 (proseklhrw,qhsan, the pass. denotes that these were allotted to Paul and Silas by God) and 1 Thess. 5:9. Eph. 1:11 clearly teaches the foreordination of all things by God in the context of his eternal, infallible purpose. 435 This statement, as many others, in which believers are addressed as the elect of God, demonstrates clearly that the Doctrines of Grace do not lead to licentiousness or indolence. 436 This statement implies both election and reprobation. The latter is not arbitrary, but just, i.e., sinners are not condemned by an arbitrary decree, but by their own sin. 156
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2 Tim. 1:9)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (2 Tim. 2:10)437
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness. (Titus 1:1)
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1–2)438
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. (1 Pet. 2:8–9)
426 Believers are addressed as the elect of God—those eternally beloved by God and so in his thought and purpose—to encourage them to persevere in prayer.
427 Divine foreordination precedes faith, not the reverse.
428 This is a very general survey of the eternal covenant of redemption and grace. The term “foreknew” refers to persons, not things or incidents, and necessarily implies a personal, intimate relationship. (For a full discussion of foreknowledge, see Appendix 1 on Predestination).
The terms “predestinate,” “called,” “justified” and “glorified” are all aor. (o[ti ou]j proe,gnw( kai. prow,risen summo,rfouj th/j eivko,noj tou/ ui`ou/ auvtou/( eivj to. ei=nai auvto.n prwto,tokon evn polloi/j avdelfoi/j\ ou]j de. prow,risen( tou,touj kai. evka,lesen\ kai. ou]j evka,lesen( tou,touj kai. evdikai,wsen\ ou]j de. evdikai,wsen( tou,touj kai. evdo,xasen), implying that all are already settled or infallible in the purpose of God. Note that the same group is referred to throughout—the covenant people of God (Jn. 17:1–2; Eph. 1:3–7). 429 Here election is pointedly apart from works, human ability or foreseen faith. The issue cannot be side–stepped by stating that this refers to the nations of Israel and Edom by referring to Mal. 1:3, for Paul under inspiration uses that reference to enforce the reality that the Divine prerogative in election was true not only to the nations, but to the individuals—and even before they were born or had done any good or evil, i.e., apart from any and all human character or action. 430 This is a clear and concise statement concerning the Divine prerogative in both judgment and mercy. Man’s “free will” may take him to hell, but it will never take him to heaven. Salvation is a matter of Divine grace. 155
grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom. 11:4–7)431
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Rom. 11:28)
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. (1 Cor. 1:27–29)432
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Eph. 1:3–5)433
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph. 1:11)434
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering. (Col. 3:12)435
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. (1 Thess. 1:4–5)
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Thess. 5:9)436
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. (2 Thess. 2:13)
431 Works and grace are absolutely separate and distinct. Should there be anything at all in any person to cause God to look favorably upon him or her, then salvation would be by works, human ability, or human effort—and the principle of grace would be destroyed. 432 If salvation were by foreseen faith, then it would be by human merit and believers would have legitimate reason for glorying or boasting. 433 Election and predestination are considered as great blessings that derive from the sovereign choice and predestinating grace of God. Cf. v. 4: evxele,xato, aor. mid. for emphasis. Either he himself and no other chose us, or he chose us out for himself.
Divine election was not based on foreseen faith, but in order that we might be holy and without blame before him. 434 The term “obtained” (evklhrw,qhmen) means to obtain by lot, and approaches the idea of Divine election. Note the same term in Acts 17:4 (proseklhrw,qhsan, the pass. denotes that these were allotted to Paul and Silas by God) and 1 Thess. 5:9. Eph. 1:11 clearly teaches the foreordination of all things by God in the context of his eternal, infallible purpose. 435 This statement, as many others, in which believers are addressed as the elect of God, demonstrates clearly that the Doctrines of Grace do not lead to licentiousness or indolence. 436 This statement implies both election and reprobation. The latter is not arbitrary, but just, i.e., sinners are not condemned by an arbitrary decree, but by their own sin. 156
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. (2 Tim. 1:9)
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (2 Tim. 2:10)437
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness. (Titus 1:1)
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1–2)438
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. (1 Pet. 2:8–9)
Agreed. But the ransom was NOT paid to the devil. The sin debt was paid to a holy God as the propitiation for our sins. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God. Satan could simply stand by and gnash his teeth.
A trinity of 'no', although #2 is a close yes.This is a spin-off from another thread.
Question asked:-
"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.
3) Did Satan kill Him?
So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions.
It has also been referred to as a "bride-price" which was always paid to the Father of the Bride.
Hi Anthony,
You seem to be copy and pasting reams of information here. Much I've read in the past, such as MacArthur, Pink, Packer, others.
As I've perused through a lot of what you've posted, I'm seeing much the same as I've seen in the past. There is an awful lot of text given to restating the assertion ad infinitum. There are a lot of places where the passage being discussed actually seems to me to be saying something a little bit different than the analysis given.
I do appreciate your willingness to engage with me on this topic. For me, I'd need to slow way down. Changing words from their historical and customary meaning isn't something I consider lightly. So far I've not found the evidence convincing, simply put.
So let me ask you this question then. I've asked this to others who seem to believe as you do, but I've never received an answer.
This is my question.
Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen, and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all, does this mean that I could not be a born again person? Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?
Much love!
The offering appeased the wrath and justice of God against our sins.
But God the Father was not holding us as a ransom. That was the devil doing that.
The devil wanted the blood of Jesus...and he got it.
The blood of Jesus has a different effect on him than it does for us.
For us, it brings forgiveness of sin(s).
For him, it is the one abiding factor that defeats him at every level. The devil hates the blood. But it was originally what he wanted more than anything else: he wanted God to die so that he could take His place, sitting on His throne and ruling over all of creation.
God ultimately threw a wrench in those works by raising Jesus from the dead.
WalterandDebbie
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Hi Helen, how are you all? but, no, 1. We could have never been saved without his crucifixion because of his life was proven to be worth while spoken of through the scriptures before he was born, example: Prophecies Fulfilled by the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ , 2. Christ took on human form because of it was the plan for the one who knew no sin to be made sin for us.This is a spin-off from another thread.
Question asked:-
"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.
3) Did Satan kill Him?
So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions.
The reason for him to become fully human was redemption so he would have died a sacrificial death not a natural one. And 3. As farouk said in his post #3 in that thread: The Lord Jesus laid down His life'; death had no hold on Him. "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (John 14.30)
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Hmmm. If I remember right,,, there's mixed idealogy about this.
We were under bondage to satan...
some believe the ransom was paid to satan.
Do you have any knowledge of this?
If not, I could go thru my notes --- I'm pretty sure.
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