The Cross and The Devil

[Lady Crosstalk]

The offering appeased the wrath and justice of God against our sins.

But God the Father was not holding us as a ransom. That was the devil doing that.

The devil wanted the blood of Jesus...and he got it.

The blood of Jesus has a different effect on him than it does for us.

For us, it brings forgiveness of sin(s).

For him, it is the one abiding factor that defeats him at every level. The devil hates the blood. But it was originally what he wanted more than anything else: he wanted God to die so that he could take His place, sitting on His throne and ruling over all of creation.

God ultimately threw a wrench in those works by raising Jesus from the dead.

Yes--the Blood of Jesus is, like the Bible, a two-edged sword. It brings salvation to those under the mercy and grace of God ("they have washed their robes and made them white, in the Blood of the Lamb"); it brings utter condemnation and an eternity of death to those who despise it. No wonder that the devil hates and fears the "water of the word" and the Blood of Christ (symbolized by the water and blood coming from Jesus' body, at the Crucifixion). The Father sent His word by His messengers, the prophets, and it was rejected; then He sent His Son--the Living Word and they rejected Him as well. God's justice demands payment for sin. Those who are not under His Grace will be forced to pay for their own sins--much sin, much punishment.

 

[Enoch111]

We were under bondage to satan...

That would only be as it relates to bondage to the sin nature (the "flesh" as noted in the Scripture below). The unregenerate (those who have not been born again) are within the kingdom of darkness because Satan is "the god of this world", and "the whole world lieth in wickedness".

EPHESIANS 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God owes Satan absolutely nothing. It is false doctrine to claim (a) that Satan had any rights of any kind (b) that a ransom was paid to Satan or (c) that Christ suffered in Hell (the Lake of Fire) AFTER He died on the cross. These are the mistaken ideas of Word of Faith preachers.

Christ offered Himself to God as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. The sin debt was paid to God the Father by the Son. The ransom was paid to God the Father since Christians are the purchased possession of God: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:20)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

That precious blood was Christ was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the Heavenly Sanctuary. And that is why Christ is the propitiation -- fully satisfactory sacrifice -- to God on behalf of sinners.

 

[justbyfaith]

It is false doctrine to claim (a) that Satan had any rights of any kind (b) that a ransom was paid to Satan

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

The ransom was paid to God the Father

This is false doctrine.

Because you are setting forth God the Father as being evil, that He would hold the sins of the world over Jesus' head so that Jesus would have to give His life as a ransom to the Father.

Because those who require a ransom are evil; and this is basically true across the board.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Hi Helen, how are you all? but, no, 1. We could have never been saved without his crucifixion because of his life was proven to be worth while spoken of through the scriptures before he was born, example: Prophecies Fulfilled by the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ , 2. Christ took on human form because of it was the plan for the one who knew no sin to be made sin for us.

The reason for him to become fully human was redemption so he would have died a sacrificial death not a natural one. And 3. As farouk said in his post #3 in that thread: The Lord Jesus laid down His life'; death had no hold on Him. "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me" (John 14.30)

Amen

 

[Helen]

@Enoch111 said
↑

This is false doctrine.

Christ laid down His life, and after three days He took it up again. God and Christ owed the devil ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. And Christ also deliberately chose when He would "give up the ghost" (expire). He died earlier than would have been expected under crucifixion, so that not a bone of His was broken.

===

It is faithful doctrine based in 1 Timothy 2:6. Jesus gave His life as a ransom for many.

Does it look like the conclusion ( once again) is not 'Either v Or' , but that both are correct...because they are!

The head and tail of of the same elephant.
Or better yet, the front and the back of the same tapestry.

 

[GodsGrace]

That would only be as it relates to bondage to the sin nature (the "flesh" as noted in the Scripture below). The unregenerate (those who have not been born again) are within the kingdom of darkness because Satan is "the god of this world", and "the whole world lieth in wickedness".

EPHESIANS 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God owes Satan absolutely nothing. It is false doctrine to claim (a) that Satan had any rights of any kind (b) that a ransom was paid to Satan or (c) that Christ suffered in Hell (the Lake of Fire) AFTER He died on the cross. These are the mistaken ideas of Word of Faith preachers.

Christ offered Himself to God as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. The sin debt was paid to God the Father by the Son. The ransom was paid to God the Father since Christians are the purchased possession of God: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:20)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

That precious blood was Christ was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the Heavenly Sanctuary. And that is why Christ is the propitiation -- fully satisfactory sacrifice -- to God on behalf of sinners.

But what were we bought back FROM?
I need to get my notes...

I'm not really going to argue this since even theologians are divided on the understanding...But this will help...if you want to comment...
I find that no view on the atonement is wrong...Every view has some aspect of redemption/atonement in it. The following is referring to the Ransom Theory


This theory finds its roots in the Early Church, particularly in Origen from the 3rd century. This theory essentially teaches that Jesus Christ died as a ransom sacrifice, paid either to Satan (the most dominate view), or to God the Father. Jesus’ death then acts as a payment to satisfy the debt on the souls of the human race, the same debt we inherited from Adam’s original sin.

The Ransom view could be summarized like this:

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the Devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.” 1

Redemption in this theory means to buy back, and purchase the human race from the clutches of the Devil. The main controversy here with this theory is the act of paying off the Devil. Some have written that this is not a fair statement to say that all Ransom Theorists believe that the Devil is paid, but rather in this act of Ransom Christ frees humanity from the bondage of sin and death. In this way Ransom relates the Christus Victor theory. But it’s worth differentiating here because in one way these views are similar, but in another way they are drastically different.

source: 7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison


Do you still agree with your belief?

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Anthony,

You seem to be copy and pasting reams of information here. Much I've read in the past, such as MacArthur, Pink, Packer, others.

As I've perused through a lot of what you've posted, I'm seeing much the same as I've seen in the past. There is an awful lot of text given to restating the assertion ad infinitum. There are a lot of places where the passage being discussed actually seems to me to be saying something a little bit different than the analysis given.

I do appreciate your willingness to engage with me on this topic. For me, I'd need to slow way down. Changing words from their historical and customary meaning isn't something I consider lightly. So far I've not found the evidence convincing, simply put.

So let me ask you this question then. I've asked this to others who seem to believe as you do, but I've never received an answer.

This is my question.

Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen, and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all, does this mean that I could not be a born again person? Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?

Much love!

Is there a conflict in your last paragraph?

 

[Helen]

Agreed. But the ransom was NOT paid to the devil. The sin debt was paid to a holy God as the propitiation for our sins. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God. Satan could simply stand by and gnash his teeth.

( @justbyfaith )

YES, I can agree there...because it was not the Devil but GOD who laid the judgement of Adam upon mankind.

So legally God collected the debt of the price of sin.
If we that believe the God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself ...'He died', He paid the price, and He received the debt.

I find I am checking "like" on both sides of the discussion!! ...
Hence I posted the above #105

 

[GodsGrace]

I can agree there...because it was not the Devil but GOD who laid the judgement of Adam upon mankind.

So legally God collected the debt of the price of sin.
If we that believe the God was in Jesus Christ reconciling the world to Himself ...'He died', He paid the price, and He received the debt.

I find I am checking "like" on both sides of the discussion!! ...
Hence I posted the above #105

Just thinking....
God laid the judgement of Adam on mankind.
OK.
But it was satan that "kidnapped" man and has had him under his thumb from that time...till Jesus.

@Enoch111 says God doesn't owe anybody anything...
But isn't the whole idea to REDEEM us from satan's bondage? The one that kidnapped us?

I don't think there's a right or wrong here.
Just opinion...

 

[Enoch111]

But what were we bought back FROM?

THE SLAVE MARKET OF SIN.

All sinners were slaves to sin.
1. First we were saved from Hell.
2. Then we were saved from the bondage to the sin nature.

 

[GodsGrace]

THE SLAVE MARKET OF SIN.

All sinners were slaves to sin.
1. First we were saved from Hell.
2. Then we were saved from the bondage to the sin nature.

Keep reading my post!

The above is obvious.
So we were slaves to satan..kidnapped.

So why is God getting paid?
Why not Satan?

Hope you read my entire post.

 

[Helen]

Just thinking....
God laid the judgement of Adam on mankind.
OK.
But it was satan that "kidnapped" man and has had him under his thumb from that time...till Jesus.

@Enoch111 says God doesn't owe anybody anything...
But isn't the whole idea to REDEEM us from satan's bondage? The one that kidnapped us?

I don't think there's a right or wrong here.
Just opinion...

Yes. I guess we could really spin this off sideways by saying.
If God did not set the whole ball of wax into motion , they why did he place the serpent in the midst of the Garden?

It was God who allowed him right there no flaming swords to keep him out!

I think we have to see beyond the bondage to the finished victory ...
It was Satan who fell right into the trap from the beginning....

But, as I see it...BOTH sides of the discussion are true.

 

[Helen]

Keep reading my post!

The above is obvious.
So we were slaves to satan..kidnapped.

So why is God getting paid?
Why not Satan?

Hope you read my entire post.

Because The Judge collects the debt payable... ?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

That would only be as it relates to bondage to the sin nature (the "flesh" as noted in the Scripture below). The unregenerate (those who have not been born again) are within the kingdom of darkness because Satan is "the god of this world", and "the whole world lieth in wickedness".

EPHESIANS 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air [Satan], the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

But God owes Satan absolutely nothing. It is false doctrine to claim (a) that Satan had any rights of any kind (b) that a ransom was paid to Satan or (c) that Christ suffered in Hell (the Lake of Fire) AFTER He died on the cross. These are the mistaken ideas of Word of Faith preachers.

Christ offered Himself to God as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. The sin debt was paid to God the Father by the Son. The ransom was paid to God the Father since Christians are the purchased possession of God: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Cor 6:20)

Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

That precious blood was Christ was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the Heavenly Sanctuary. And that is why Christ is the propitiation -- fully satisfactory sacrifice -- to God on behalf of sinners.

I love the marriage symbolism that Jesus Himself evoked at the Passover celebration, on the night before He died. The "bride price" was the precious Blood of Jesus and the "dower" is given at the end of the great celebration of the Marriage Supper, from the Bridegroom to the Bride. The Church will receive the "dower" at the Judgment Seat of Christ. If the type holds to the customs of ancient Israel, the Bride will be rewarded the "dower" for her faithfulness--or not, if she has not been a faithful servant--immediately following the Marriage Supper. In ancient Israel, the dower was given to help the bride to establish her home (and provide for her, if the Bridegroom died). A concubine would have had neither a bride price nor a dower.

The ketubah (marriage contract or covenant) was drawn up and signed at the betrothal--Jesus would sign it with a pledge of His own Flesh and Blood. The ketubah could only be broken by a divorce, by the way--the reason why Joseph would have had to divorce Mary had she been unfaithful--as Joseph had originally thought, before the angel told him the truth. The ketubah spelled out, in detail, what each signatory would receive from the other. The Bridegroom would then go back to His Father's estate and create a place for Him to live with His Bride. It could take as long as two years. Finally, when all was in readiness, the Bridegroom's Father would give His permission for the Bridegroom to go and fetch His Bride. But, She would not know when He would come. She and her maids would need to keep watch, stay alert, be dressed and ready to go--even if He came at midnight. When the Bridegroom and His friends appeared with a shout, She would go out to meet Him. Then they would have a grand procession to the Father's estate (if at night, it would be lighted by the lamps of the Bride and her maids). There, the Bride and Bridegroom would enter the Bridal chamber and be secluded for as long as seven days. In the meanwhile, the Bridegroom's Father would throw a lavish Marriage Supper for invited guests (the Old Testament saints like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, etc.). The Bridegroom and the Bride would re-emerge after their seclusion, and it was then that the dower would be conferred on the Bride, as the Bridegroom's gift to her.

The "dower" should not be confused with a "dowry" which is given to the Bridegroom by the Father of the Bride. It is still given today in some countries. There has recently been a great scandal in India over the "dowry murders"--where the bridegroom takes the dowry and then has the bride murdered (often through an "accident") and then do it all over again with another bride.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

But what were we bought back FROM?
I need to get my notes...

I'm not really going to argue this since even theologians are divided on the understanding...But this will help...if you want to comment...
I find that no view on the atonement is wrong...Every view has some aspect of redemption/atonement in it. The following is referring to the Ransom Theory


This theory finds its roots in the Early Church, particularly in Origen from the 3rd century. This theory essentially teaches that Jesus Christ died as a ransom sacrifice, paid either to Satan (the most dominate view), or to God the Father. Jesus’ death then acts as a payment to satisfy the debt on the souls of the human race, the same debt we inherited from Adam’s original sin.

The Ransom view could be summarized like this:

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the Devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.” 1

Redemption in this theory means to buy back, and purchase the human race from the clutches of the Devil. The main controversy here with this theory is the act of paying off the Devil. Some have written that this is not a fair statement to say that all Ransom Theorists believe that the Devil is paid, but rather in this act of Ransom Christ frees humanity from the bondage of sin and death. In this way Ransom relates the Christus Victor theory. But it’s worth differentiating here because in one way these views are similar, but in another way they are drastically different.

source: 7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison


Do you still agree with your belief?

We will read the above.

 

[marks]

Is there a conflict in your last paragraph?

I don't think so, but admittedly the wording is awkward, I thought so when I wrote it!



Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen, and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all, does this mean that I could not be a born again person? Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?

Perhaps more clearly . . .

Given that I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen,
Given that I do believe God extends an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all,
These things being true, could I yet still be born again, merely in error over my soteriology?

Is that better?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just thinking....
God laid the judgement of Adam on mankind.
OK.
But it was satan that "kidnapped" man and has had him under his thumb from that time...till Jesus.

@Enoch111 says God doesn't owe anybody anything...
But isn't the whole idea to REDEEM us from satan's bondage? The one that kidnapped us?

I don't think there's a right or wrong here.
Just opinion...

My understanding is that first and foremost Jesus died to satisfy the penalty of the Law. God is the Lawgiver, and His Law exacts a penalty. Since the penalty is death, it would destroy me, but Jesus stepped in, since death wouldn't destroy Him.

So God's Law requires a death for my sin, and Jesus supplies that death.

Clear as mud?

Much love!

 

[Helen]

My understanding is that first and foremost Jesus died to satisfy the penalty of the Law. God is the Lawgiver, and His Law exacts a penalty. Since the penalty is death, it would destroy me, but Jesus stepped in, since death wouldn't destroy Him.

So God's Law requires a death for my sin, and Jesus supplies that death.

Clear as mud?

Much love!

You said it clearer that I did.

'To the Victor go the spoils. '

 

[marks]

You said it clearer that I did.

'To the Victor go the spoils. '

 

[Enoch111]

So why is God getting paid? Why not Satan?

Why are you so keen on having Satan get paid? His wages are in the Lake of Fire.