The Cross and The Devil

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Nancy

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Agreed. But the ransom was NOT paid to the devil. The sin debt was paid to a holy God as the propitiation for our sins. Christ's sacrifice was an offering to God. Satan could simply stand by and gnash his teeth.
Yes indeed! And, the keys to this worldly kingdom will be ripped out of Satan's hands when all is said and done. And then the TRUE King of Kings will rule over all of those who trusted in Him, loved Him, and ran the race to the end. IMHO that is :)
 
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Anthony D'Arienzo

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"marks,
[You seem to be copy and pasting reams of information here.]
You seem to be sincere. Sometimes those who post are not serious, so I offered you some very solid teaching.
I am not that smart, but over time I have found some gifted persons who are very gifted and proven over time.


[Much I've read in the past, such as MacArthur, Pink, Packer, others.]
okay..
[As I've perused through a lot of what you've posted, I'm seeing much the same as I've seen in the past.]

Some of what i offered is more in detail than those things you have seen...

[There is an awful lot of text given to restating the assertion ad infinitum.\]
That is just to show many have seen the same thing

[There are a lot of places where the passage being discussed actually seems to me to be saying something a little bit different than the analysis given.]

If you do not mind me offering a suggestion...read the link as if your pastor wrote it and it contains truth, before you attempt to punch holes in it, or quibble about the wording. If you read the links in a defensive mode you might be prone to miss the authors intent. By all means, investigate what is written, however. The Bereans investigated the Apostle Paul after all


[I do appreciate your willingness to engage with me on this topic.]

I participate in part to learn and grow, and when possible help others to do the same. I am studying things related to these topics quite often. You have not attacked or mocked these teachings as some do, so it is easy to respond biblically.
[ For me, I'd need to slow way down.]
Not a problem, take your time..The truth delights to be searched out and investigated

Marks...have you ever read psalm 119 through and imagined it was you who wrote that Psalm???


[Changing words from their historical and customary meaning isn't something I consider lightly.]
Search it out.
[So far I've not found the evidence convincing, simply put.]
That is between you and God. I try to answer and give a reason for the hope that is in me.I cannot "convince" you. Any truth we receive is because God allows us understanding


[So let me ask you this question then. I've.asked this to others who seem to believe as you do, but I've never received an answer.]
I will always give an honest answer, you might not like my answer, but it will be honest.


This is my question.

[Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen,]

Not yet. Many on CB, are asking the wrong questions to solve that issue biblically

[and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all,]

The gospel is sincerly offered to all who hear the gospel preached. many have lived and died never hearing the gospel, they have died in their sins.

[does this mean that I could not be a born again person?]

It might mean that very thing in that the inability to welcome divine truth is a sign of the unregenerate. On the other hand many who are granted repentance and faith by the Spirit of God, do not fully grasp many of the truths and implications of the So great Salvation we have In Jesus.
I do not read in scripture that salvation is a doctrinal test.
That being said many will perish for not receiving a love of the truth.

Jesus assures us that His SHEEP will hear His voice. I have not seen any post where you deny the trinity, or like mormons believe in additional revelation outside the scripture.

keep in mind it is one thing to deny truths and mock and scoff...it is another to have questions, both doctrinal, and emotional that might hinder reception of the truth.



Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?
Yes, that is most likely the case. In such a case, we are brothers In Christ . we are responsible to be our brother's keeper.
If God has saved you by a God-given faith,then we are brothers despite different levels of understanding.

In such a case, if i find it difficult to love a brother or sister for who they are now, I am compelled to love them for who they will be at glorification.
 

Enoch111

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And, the keys to this worldly kingdom will be ripped out of Satan's hands when all is said and done.
Before God created Lucifer, He already knew that this angel would become His Adversary. But God would turn around and use Satan as a tool to fulfil His purposes. At the same time He created Hell (Gehenna = the Lake of Fire) for the devil and his angels. And Satan already knows that his doom is sealed. So he will display his wrath at the time that the Antichrist takes control, following which they all will be in Hell. Good riddance!
 

GodsGrace

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"marks,
[You seem to be copy and pasting reams of information here.]
You seem to be sincere. Sometimes those who post are not serious, so I offered you some very solid teaching.
I am not that smart, but over time I have found some gifted persons who are very gifted and proven over time.


[Much I've read in the past, such as MacArthur, Pink, Packer, others.]
okay..
[As I've perused through a lot of what you've posted, I'm seeing much the same as I've seen in the past.]

Some of what i offered is more in detail than those things you have seen...

[There is an awful lot of text given to restating the assertion ad infinitum.\]
That is just to show many have seen the same thing

[There are a lot of places where the passage being discussed actually seems to me to be saying something a little bit different than the analysis given.]

If you do not mind me offering a suggestion...read the link as if your pastor wrote it and it contains truth, before you attempt to punch holes in it, or quibble about the wording. If you read the links in a defensive mode you might be prone to miss the authors intent. By all means, investigate what is written, however. The Bereans investigated the Apostle Paul after all


[I do appreciate your willingness to engage with me on this topic.]

I participate in part to learn and grow, and when possible help others to do the same. I am studying things related to these topics quite often. You have not attacked or mocked these teachings as some do, so it is easy to respond biblically.
[ For me, I'd need to slow way down.]
Not a problem, take your time..The truth delights to be searched out and investigated

Marks...have you ever read psalm 119 through and imagined it was you who wrote that Psalm???


[Changing words from their historical and customary meaning isn't something I consider lightly.]
Search it out.
[So far I've not found the evidence convincing, simply put.]
That is between you and God. I try to answer and give a reason for the hope that is in me.I cannot "convince" you. Any truth we receive is because God allows us understanding


[So let me ask you this question then. I've.asked this to others who seem to believe as you do, but I've never received an answer.]
I will always give an honest answer, you might not like my answer, but it will be honest.


This is my question.

[Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen,]

Not yet. Many on CB, are asking the wrong questions to solve that issue biblically

[and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all,]

The gospel is sincerly offered to all who hear the gospel preached. many have lived and died never hearing the gospel, they have died in their sins.

[does this mean that I could not be a born again person?]

It might mean that very thing in that the inability to welcome divine truth is a sign of the unregenerate. On the other hand many who are granted repentance and faith by the Spirit of God, do not fully grasp many of the truths and implications of the So great Salvation we have In Jesus.
I do not read in scripture that salvation is a doctrinal test.
That being said many will perish for not receiving a love of the truth.

Jesus assures us that His SHEEP will hear His voice. I have not seen any post where you deny the trinity, or like mormons believe in additional revelation outside the scripture.

keep in mind it is one thing to deny truths and mock and scoff...it is another to have questions, both doctrinal, and emotional that might hinder reception of the truth.



Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?
Yes, that is most likely the case. In such a case, we are brothers In Christ . we are responsible to be our brother's keeper.
If God has saved you by a God-given faith,then we are brothers despite different levels of understanding.

In such a case, if i find it difficult to love a brother or sister for who they are now, I am compelled to love them for who they will be at glorification.
AD
Don't you know how to use the quote system?
Your posts are very diffcult to read and to respond to....
 

GodsGrace

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I don't think so, but admittedly the wording is awkward, I thought so when I wrote it!

:confused:

Since I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen, and does not extend an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all, does this mean that I could not be a born again person? Is it possible that I'm actually saved, born from God, yet in error on this point?

Perhaps more clearly . . .

Given that I don't believe that God has limited salvation to the pre-chosen,
Given that I do believe God extends an honest and sincere offer of eternal life to all,
These things being true, could I yet still be born again, merely in error over my soteriology?

Is that better?

Much love!
Not only is it better, but now I could answer to it.
Whatever you think about soteriology...even if it's wrong...you (all of us) will still be saved because if NOT...It would mean that we are saved by our doctrine and not by Jesus.

Doctrine cannot be what saves us...
but SOME doctrine could lead to danger...
I don't believe calvinism will.
(I'm not calvinist in theology BTW)
 

GodsGrace

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My understanding is that first and foremost Jesus died to satisfy the penalty of the Law. God is the Lawgiver, and His Law exacts a penalty. Since the penalty is death, it would destroy me, but Jesus stepped in, since death wouldn't destroy Him.

So God's Law requires a death for my sin, and Jesus supplies that death.

Clear as mud?

Much love!
No! It's clear.
It's just that there are so many theories,,,,each one sounds right.
Did you see my link?

It's concise and very clear:

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D Morrison
 

GodsGrace

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Why are you so keen on having Satan get paid? His wages are in the Lake of Fire.
Did you read that link I sent you?
MOST theologians believe it was satan that got paid.

I mean, do we think we know more than theologians?
Are you one?

I'm not keen on anything. I've been stating throughout this thread that there's a bit of truth in each of the atonement theories...if I had to pick one it would be:

THE MORAL INFLUENCE THEORY
or
THE CHRISTUS VICTOR THEORY

(I cheated)
 

Enoch111

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MOST theologians believe it was satan that got paid.
Most theologians can be wrong in many cases, as in this case.
I mean, do we think we know more than theologians?
There are times when theologians should be simply ignored.
Are you one?
I am a Christian who studies the Word diligently. There are times when I am in agreement with theologians and there are times when they are DEAD WRONG, e.g. Calvin and the Reformers on their version of the Gospel.

God owed Satan nothing other than eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire.
 
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GodsGrace

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Most theologians can be wrong in many cases, as in this case.

There are times when theologians should be simply ignored.

I am a Christian who studies the Word diligently. There are times when I am in agreement with theologians and there are times when they are DEAD WRONG, e.g. Calvin and the Reformers on their version of the Gospel.

God owed Satan nothing other than eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire.
I agree with your statement.
It's not that God owed anything to satan.
It's that He was buying us back from him.

But, as I stated, I'm just not willing to debate this.
There's a little bit of truth in EVERY atonement theory.

It could have been paid to God...I just don't have a real opinion about this.

But remember that most theologians DO NOT agree with John Calvin...
whatever that means.
 

GodsGrace

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Not on this site. It does not give me that option
But we all use it !

1. If you want to reply to a specific person,,,use the "reply" button at the lower right hand corner. I think you're doing this. yes, you are.


2. If you want to call, or tag, one person...use the @ with their name right after.

If you want to quote something and break up their letter ... then it has to start like this:
[ ] write QUOTE in between
And it h as to end like this
[ ] write / plus the word QUOTE in between

You'll find that the above will come out in quotes.
 
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marks

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"marks,
[You seem to be copy and pasting reams of information here.]
You seem to be sincere. Sometimes those who post are not serious, so I offered you some very solid teaching.
I am not that smart, but over time I have found some gifted persons who are very gifted and proven over time.

Hi Anthony,
I appreciate that you want to share what you believe, and have deferred to others.

[Much I've read in the past, such as MacArthur, Pink, Packer, others.]
okay..
[As I've perused through a lot of what you've posted, I'm seeing much the same as I've seen in the past.]
Some of what i offered is more in detail than those things you have seen...

To be sure, I've studied this very much for quite some time, and have debated these ideas with seemingly very smart people, who very strongly support these views.

[There is an awful lot of text given to restating the assertion ad infinitum.\]
That is just to show many have seen the same thing

Maybe I'm trying to say this isn't my first dance, and I like to try to focus on what I see to be the heart of the matter. I imagine I could likewise fill pages with quotes.

[There are a lot of places where the passage being discussed actually seems to me to be saying something a little bit different than the analysis given.]

If you do not mind me offering a suggestion...read the link as if your pastor wrote it and it contains truth, before you attempt to punch holes in it, or quibble about the wording. If you read the links in a defensive mode you might be prone to miss the authors intent. By all means, investigate what is written, however. The Bereans investigated the Apostle Paul after all

Actually, what I like to do is to read what people write, whether a long dead author, or someone on the internet now, to determine what actually it really is they are saying, and to compare what that message is with the message of Scripture. I do the same with my pastors, and I recommend everyone do that with me.


I find that truth is simple, and if correctly understood, can be expressed in a simple manner, and shown in Scripture just as simply.

I don't recommend that anyone just drop their filters and discernment when they read man's writtings. I believe we need to remain vigilant against false teachings (just saying here) and compare everything to Scripture.

[I do appreciate your willingness to engage with me on this topic.]
I participate in part to learn and grow, and when possible help others to do the same. I am studying things related to these topics quite often. You have not attacked or mocked these teachings as some do, so it is easy to respond biblically.


This is good.

[ For me, I'd need to slow way down.]
Not a problem, take your time..The truth delights to be searched out and investigated
What that actually means to me is to not try to address 20 quotes from 18 writers, but to follow a more straightfoward and linear discussion.

Marks...have you ever read psalm 119 through and imagined it was you who wrote that Psalm???

I have, actually. Read it in Jesus' voice also. There is more . . .

[Changing words from their historical and customary meaning isn't something I consider lightly.]
Search it out.

Just so.

[So far I've not found the evidence convincing, simply put.]
That is between you and God. I try to answer and give a reason for the hope that is in me.I cannot "convince" you. Any truth we receive is because God allows us understanding

Yes. :)

Will continue . . .
 

marks

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[does this mean that I could not be a born again person?]


I do not read in scripture that salvation is a doctrinal test.

OK, good! I think agreement on this is more importand than agreement on the other.

In such a case, if i find it difficult to love a brother or sister for who they are now, I am compelled to love them for who they will be at glorification.

Perhaps to love others with God's love for them that He has right now?

Might that be the river that flows out from us?

Much love!
 

Jay Ross

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OK, good! I think agreement on this is more importand than agreement on the other.



Perhaps to love others with God's love for them that He has right now?

Might that be the river that flows out from us?

Much love!

It really depends on who has control of the flood gates in our lives. God also wants us to reach out to those we call "our problem people." Sadly we often ask God to remove them from our presence as we have no patience to minister to them because of the way we feel about them.

Shalom
 

aspen

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This is a spin-off from another thread.


Question asked:-

"...1) could we be saved without His crucifixion and
2) would He have ever died if He was not killed?
Just friendly questions.

3) Did Satan kill Him?

So folks, lets have some 'friendly' answers or opinions. :)

1. I think Jesus needed to give us all of himself for us to recognize his sacrifice
2. I think Jesus would have probably ascended to the Father if he was not killed
3. Jesus laid down his life. The devil may have enjoyed it, but Jesus was the one in charge
 
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