The cycle of abuse

[JellyJam]

Yes. They are. But the Apostle Peter told us that God is unwilling that anyone would be destroyed--that all would come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) But, Jesus wept over Jerusalem, understanding that some would not come to Him. Would a just God not punish sin? But He has made a way of escape from the due punishment of our sin--through His payment, on the Cross, for our sin. It cost Him a great deal to secure that salvation for us. How can we ignore it?

Did you know that in the old testament, the God you believe in had this to say about how he thinks.

Jeremiah 7:31 31They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

But Jesus who is supposed to be this God, says the opposite. That in fact it does enter his mind to burn children, since we are all his children.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Umm, payment would require that you would be set free at some point. Otherwise it's not payment, it's just torture.

There are only two options for one's final destination after death--paradise/heaven, or hell/the Lake of Fire. Would a loving God permit someone who hated Him to be in His holy heaven?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Umm, neither do I. But that doesn't prevent Jesus toasting her if she continues in his view to "sin"

Well, I don't take the view of mainstream Christianity on many things.

There is a sin unto death and there are sins not unto death.

Mainstream Christianity thinks your daughters sins not unto death are really sins unto death.

And as for your daughter, who hasn't known God yet versus we who have, we will be judged more harshly than her. More will be asked of us because we were given our sight.

To a man who doesn't know, and sins, his stripes will be fewer. And to those who say they know and are hypocrites who would condemn your daughter, I'm scared for them. They will be judged more harshly. Because if they really knew as they say they do, they would fear God and not condemn your daughter, who Jesus died for.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Did you know that in the old testament, the God you believe in had this to say about how he thinks.

Jeremiah 7:31 31They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

But Jesus who is supposed to be this God, says the opposite. That in fact it does enter his mind to burn children, since we are all his children.

No, we are unfortunately NOT all His children. John 1:12---> "But to all who believed Him and accepted Him, He gave the right to become children of God." In the Jeremiah passage, He is speaking of innocent children. Those evil people used to sacrifice their innocent, infant sons and daughters to Molech.

 

[Helen]

Scripturally hell and the lake of fire are not the same thing.
Just saying

 

[JellyJam]

There are only two options for one's final destination after death--paradise/heaven, or hell, the Lake of Fire. Would a loving God permit someone who hated Him to be in His holy heaven?

Oi, I'm going to take a break.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Scripturally hell and the lake of fire are not the same thing.
Just saying

Yes, I know, but it complicates things to bring that into the discussion at this point.

 

[Helen]

Yes, I know, but it complicates things to bring that into the discussion at this point.

Agree, in another thread we would probably argue on my post #320 back over the page....I type slowly, by the time I posted it about 6 posts had been posted on top of it!

But, never mind...we each have to stand on what we believe GOD has shown us...not what man has told us ..which for the most part I had to cut out back in the 80's ...I had believed what I was told by man ( because he held the title of Pastor!! ) I did not "wait upon the Lord " I just swallowed what was spoon fed to the church, and still is.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Oi, I'm going to take a break.

Truth has a way of battering at our defenses against it. It is exhausting to keep trying to avoid confronting Him. He is the truth.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He is good. He will do good.

JJ, you are seeing Jesus through a lens of prejudice because of all the men who say they speak for him but then misspeak.

This is why I said I wish I could erase all that, but I can't. You'll have to reject what they've said and how they've interpreted and taught.

If you read the gospels, you do not see Jesus condemning sinners. You see Him eating with them. You see Him healing them. You see Him saying, I do not condemn you. You see Him calling to them, come and drink freely.

You see Him condemning RELIGIOUS MEN and teachers.

We are in the time of the great falling away. And its horrifying to me that we are in a repeat of Israel, with men who say they can see, preventing other men from entering in. And once again, they are the ones Jesus condemns, not you and your daughter. You and your daughter are the ones He died for, and He did it so that you would be able to boldly enter into the kingdom and call God your Father.

They have it wrong JJ, just as religious men have always had it wrong, as Jesus told them.

And now, you have it wrong because of the prejudice they have filled you with.

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

He is good. He will do good.

JJ, you are seeing Jesus through a lens of prejudice because of all the men who say they speak for him but then misspeak.

This is why I said I wish I could erase all that, but I can't. You'll have to reject what they've said and how they've interpreted and taught.

If you read the gospels, you do not see Jesus condemning sinners. You see Him eating with them. You see Him healing them. You see Him saying, I do not condemn you. You see Him calling to them, come and drink freely.

You see Him condemning RELIGIOUS MEN and teachers.

We are in the time of the great falling away. And its horrifying to me that we are in a repeat of Israel, with men who say they can see, preventing other men from entering in. And once again, they are the ones Jesus condemns, not you and your daughter. You and your daughter are the ones He died for, and He did it so that you would be able to boldly enter into the kingdom and call God your Father.

They have it wrong JJ, just as religious men have always had it wrong, as Jesus told them.

And now, you have it wrong because of the prejudice they have filled you with.

"God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that through Him the world might be saved." (John 3:17 emphasis mine)

 

[amadeus]

Haha! You and me both!
So much that I still not quite understand.

My take on God creating evil is 'God sets the stage'...man chose how the play would go...and evil is the result.

Man, without God is darkness.

Take first this with regard only to what you may recall from your secular schooling in science. Darkness is the absence of light. A windowless closet without a connected light bulb or a flashlight or a candle is black darkness. Light itself is something measurable. When no light is present we call it darkness, period.

Take this now on a spiritual level. How did man come to Life?

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

And to death?

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:16-17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

And so they were "dead" to God as were their offspring until Jesus brought Life anew for mankind.

Is not Light Life and darkness death? I won't go into the scriptures which show that... but remember that Jesus is the Light of the world and he is also Life.

I say this because if God created evil , and brought all the evil we see into the world. He is totally responsible for every murder , Hitler , pain, sorrow etc...
What kind of Father is that???

Don't forget that we were all effectively in the eyes of God born dead. We were zombies until we encountered the Life which Jesus is. Those without Jesus remain zombies [walking dead people].

God did not create the evil or the darkness. Rather He created man with possibility within himself to reject the Life and the Light which God was. Man did so. In the darkness man strived to use the "very good" things which God made [Gen 1:31] alone, without Light, without direction [Jerem 10:23] and the results have spiraled downward. Jesus made no difference to men who never acknowledged Him and who never obeyed Him. They remained the darkness of death without Light and without Life. Among them perhaps some became what men call their Hitlers and their Stalins as if those were worse dead men that the rest who also continued their walk in death and darkness. There may be levels of death and darkness but ultimately what can they matter to the dead?

Therefore IF He caused evil then no one is found guilty , if no one is guilty , why did Jesus have to die in our place, we were not responsible in the first place for our actions.

This comes back to the required vision, Helen! Without vision His people perish [Prov 29:18]. Everyone is already dead, so why does anyone worry about guilt and punishment... unless a person has really received Life and rejected it?

Remember also Helen that I would be what some people call an annihilationist. There is no after life for the dead. They simply remain dead. The semblance of life they for an allotted time in this hunk of flesh is all they will ever have. In this flesh we have the opportunity because of Jesus to receive Life... but do all take hold of the glimmer of hope for a real King [Jesus] or do they continuing with children of Israel to choose to have a king like the heathens/gentiles all around them?

It's like tying two foxes tails together and lighting them on fire..and sitting back to see what happens.

@amadeus @Dave L Can you untangle this??

Don't however meticulously try to follow every curve in the trail unnecessarily. Simply trust in God and follow Him precisely where he leads you.

We live by faith rather than by knowledge. Sometimes God will give us knowledge of extra things, but as someone has said, we do not have to be theologians of the highest order to walk with Jesus to the end of the road. For this reason I keep coming back to this:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

 

[stunnedbygrace]

JJ, many, many men in this very forum are those Jesus condemns. Do you understand? Stop listening to them. You must go directly to Jesus, not these men. He will NOT condemn you if you go directly to Him and ask to be given your sight. Stop listening to men.

 

[amadeus]

Since I'm back lets talk about that.

In my opinion I really think Jesus was worse than a child abuser, much much worse.

Jesus came to bring Hope to the hopeless. Who was hopeless? Who is hopeless? What is our hope? All of the children are hopeless without the Life which He brought...

 

[Willie T]

Few people lose hope. Usually, they just lose perspective.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Take first this with regard only to what you may recall from your secular schooling in science. Darkness is the absence of light. A windowless closet without a connected light bulb or a flashlight or a candle is black darkness. Light itself is something measurable. When no light is present we call it darkness, period.

Take this now on a spiritual level. How did man come to Life?

"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen 2:7

And to death?

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:16-17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

And so they were "dead" to God as were their offspring until Jesus brought Life anew for mankind.

Is not Light Life and darkness death? I won't go into the scriptures which show that... but remember that Jesus is the Light of the world and he is also Life.


Don't forget that we were all effectively in the eyes of God born dead. We were zombies until we encountered the Life which Jesus is. Those without Jesus remain zombies [walking dead people].

God did not create the evil or the darkness. Rather He created man with possibility within himself to reject the Life and the Light which God was. Man did so. In the darkness man strived to use the "very good" things which God made [Gen 1:31] alone, without Light, without direction [Jerem 10:23] and the results have spiraled downward. Jesus made no difference to men who never acknowledged Him and who never obeyed Him. They remained the darkness of death without Light and without Life. Among them perhaps some became what men call their Hitlers and their Stalins as if those were worse dead men that the rest who also continued their walk in death and darkness. There may be levels of death and darkness but ultimately what can they matter to the dead?




This comes back to the required vision, Helen! Without vision His people perish [Prov 29:18]. Everyone is already dead, so why does anyone worry about guilt and punishment... unless a person has really received Life and rejected it?

Remember also Helen that I would be what some people call an annihilationist. There is no after life for the dead. They simply remain dead. The semblance of life they for an allotted time in this hunk of flesh is all they will ever have. In this flesh we have the opportunity because of Jesus to receive Life... but do all take hold of the glimmer of hope for a real King [Jesus] or do they continuing with children of Israel to choose to have a king like the heathens/gentiles all around them?



Don't however meticulously try to follow every curve in the trail unnecessarily. Simply trust in God and follow Him precisely where he leads you.

We live by faith rather than by knowledge. Sometimes God will give us knowledge of extra things, but as someone has said, we do not have to be theologians of the highest order to walk with Jesus to the end of the road. For this reason I keep coming back to this:

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

When you say there may be levels of death and darkness but what do they matter to the dead, it recalls a passage to my mind that says, woe, it will be worse for you hypocrites than it will be for sodom in the judgement. Do you know the passage?

 

[Lady Crosstalk]

Few people lose hope. Usually, they just lose perspective.

Hi Willie T. Haven't seen you posting in a while.

Scripture tells that there are those who have "no hope". (see 1 Thessalonians 4:13)

 

[amadeus]

When you say there may be levels of death and darkness but what do they matter to the dead, it recalls a passage to my mind that says, woe, it will be worse for you hypocrites than it will be for sodom in the judgement. Do you know the passage?

Yes, and perhaps it would have been better to say they would not matter to those who have the Life which Jesus brought. Do different levels of Life matter? Consider the three levels of saved creatures in the ark of gopher wood Noah built...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Scripture also says that God was angry because He said, you have made those sad (taken away their hope) who I did not want to be sad, and you have cried peace (given hope) to those you shouldn't have. ( my paraphrase).

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes, and perhaps it would have been better to say they would not matter to those who have the Life which Jesus brought. Do different levels of Life matter? Consider the three levels of saved creatures in the ark of gopher wood Noah built...

I do not know if or how much different levels of punishment matter. I only know that by what Jesus said, it will be better in the judgement for a sodomite than for a hypocrite. But...you don't see this taught at all.