The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.

[Enoch111]

The Father is the God of ALL flesh. The Son is the God of Israel...

This is a false dichotomy. Both the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the God of all flesh, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Almighty God, the Alpha and the Omega, the Lord God Almighty. Jesus is in fact called "the mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

This verse has been consistently applied to Christ. Now in what sense can Jesus be called "the everlasting Father" since He is clearly not God the Father (also called "the Ancient of Days")? Even though I am not a Calvinist, John Calvin's interpretation makes perfect sense:

The father of the age. The Greek translator has added mellontos future; [143] and, in my opinion, the translation is correct, for it denotes eternity, unless it be thought better to view it as denoting "perpetual duration," or "an endless succession of ages," lest any one should improperly limit it to the heavenly life, which is still hidden from us. (Colossians 3:3.) True, the Prophet includes it, and even declares that Christ will come, in order to bestow immortality on his people; but as believers, even in this world, pass from death to life, (John 5:24; 1 John 3:14,) this world is embraced by the eternal condition of the Church.

The name Father is put for Author, because Christ preserves the existence of his Church through all ages, and bestows immortality on the body and on the individual members. Hence we conclude how transitory our condition is, apart from him; for, granting that we were to live for a very long period after the ordinary manner of men, what after all will be the value of our long life? We ought, therefore, to elevate our minds to that blessed and everlasting life, which as yet we see not, but which we possess by hope and faith. (Romans 8:25.)

 

[GEN2REV]

Let me step into this minefield... Episkopos isn't saying Jesus isn't God, but arguing that the Father is greater: something that Jesus Himself said.

He definitely isn't saying that Jesus isn't God.

Thank you, Wynona. I was just about to post the same thing to the many who have jumped out of the woodwork.

Neither does Oneness doctrine claim that Jesus is not God.

The title of the thread is just an inflammatory attempt to get people riled up against the OP's personal opposition.

He doesn't even understand the full foundational structure of the doctrine he is passionately attempting to defend.

Nor do most of those who jumped up to play "me too!"

 

[Enoch111]

Episkopos isn't saying Jesus isn't God, but arguing that the Father is greater: something that Jesus Himself said.

While the Bible does say that the Head of Christ is God (meaning the authority over Christ is God the Father as noted in 1 Cor 11:3) there is no "lesser God" vs "greater God", since the Father simply calls the Son "God" (Heb 1:8,9). Not once but twice. And there is only ONE God eternally existent as three divine persons. So while the Father has full authority over the Son, the Son is as much God as the Father. Now this is beyond human comprehension, but it is a Bible fact and a spiritual reality.

 

[GEN2REV]

I think our posts sometimes reveal more about ourselves then they do others. Something to consider?

Darn.

What did I reveal?

 

[GEN2REV]

Perhaps we should call down fire from heaven onto him just in case.

If you think that's necessary.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

If there were no parts of God and we had nothing to go on except the history of the God of Israel, the " I AM" ; do you ( any ) suppose there would be any hope for the whole of mankind?
They had the law and sacrifices.......the rest of man would be as dust !

In Mt 3:13 -17 John was proclaiming the one to come as their redeemer, not himself.
When Jesus presented himself, a Jew to be baptized of John; John forbade Jesus saying he needed the baptism Jesus would send.The Son walked perfectly before the Father stating that it becometh us to fulfill ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS.

When Jesus ( THE SON OF GOD) came out of the Jordan immediately the heavens opened and he saw the SPIRIT of GOD descending like a dove light upon him. A voice from heaven PROCLAIMED, THIS IS MY BELOVED SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED.

Three distinct yet different forms of the Creator are represented here, GOD SPOKE from heaven audibly, GOD, LIGHTED upon him as a dove and GOD THE SON JESUS SUBMITTED and received his anointing for his ministry.

If any read and study the bible, God's holy word, then tell me how anyone saying they are believers and followers could deny THE WHOLE DIETY OF GOD ? ONE GOD IN THE FATHER,THE SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST !!!!!!!

 

[Johann]

Let me step into this minefield... Episkopos isn't saying Jesus isn't God, but arguing that the Father is greater: something that Jesus Himself said.

He definitely isn't saying that Jesus isn't God.

Glad you jumped in. would you say Christ Jesus is 'lesser' than the Father?

“Before the entrance of evil, there was peace and joy throughout the universe. . . . Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. By Christ, the Father wrought in the creation of all heavenly beings. . . . and to Christ, equally with the Father, all Heaven gave allegiance.” (GC88 493)


“In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. . . . The divinity of Christ is the believer’s assurance of eternal life” (530) and the Holy Spirit is the “Third Person of the Godhead” (671).

*“The Father is all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. The Son is all the fulness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be "the express image of His person." "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Here is shown the personality of the Father. (SpTB07 63)


*“Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God. The world was made by Him, "and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3). If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense.

@Episkopos do agree that Jesus Christ is God, yet not equal, how do you answer?
J.

 

[Johann]

While the Bible does say that the Head of Christ is God (meaning the authority over Christ is God the Father as noted in 1 Cor 11:3) there is no "lesser God" vs "greater God", since the Father simply calls the Son "God" (Heb 1:8,9). Not once but twice. And there is only ONE God eternally existent as three divine persons. So while the Father has full authority over the Son, the Son is as much God as the Father. Now this is beyond human comprehension, but it is a Bible fact and a spiritual reality.

I fully concur

Hebrews 1:8
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever - If this be said of the Son of God, i.e. Jesus Christ, then Jesus Christ must be God; and indeed the design of the apostle is to prove this. The words here quoted are taken from Psa_45:6, Psa_45:7, which the ancient Chaldee paraphrast, and the most intelligent rabbins, refer to the Messiah. On the third verse of this Psalm, Thou art fairer than the children of men, the Targum says: “Thy beauty, מלכא משיחא malca Meshicha, O King Messiah, is greater than the children of men.

” Aben Ezra says: “This Psalm speaks of David, or rather of his son, the Messiah, for this is his name,” Eze_34:24 : And David my servant shall be a Prince over them for ever. Other rabbins confirm this opinion.


This verse is very properly considered a proof, and indeed a strong one, of the Divinity of Christ; but some late versions of the New Testament have endeavored to avoid the evidence of this proof by translating the words thus: God is thy throne for ever and ever; and if this version be correct, it is certain the text can be no proof of the doctrine. Mr. Wakefield vindicates this translation at large in his History of Opinions; and ὁ Θεος, being the nominative case, is supposed to be a sufficient justification of this version.

In answer to this it may be stated that the nominative case is often used for the vocative, particularly by the Attics; and the whole scope of the place requires it should be so used here; and, with due deference to all of a contrary opinion, the original Hebrew cannot be consistently translated any other way, כסאך אלהים עולם ועד kisaca Elohim olam vaed, Thy throne, O God, is for ever, and to eternity.

It is in both worlds; and extends over all time; and will exist through all endless duration. To this our Lord seems to refer, Mat_28:18 : All power is given unto me, both in Heaven and Earth. My throne, i.e. my dominion, extends from the creation to the consummation of all things. These I have made, and these I uphold; and from the end of the world, throughout eternity, I shall have the same glory - sovereign, unlimited power and authority, which I had with the Father before the world began; Joh_17:5.

I may add that none of the ancient versions has understood it in the way contended for by those who deny the Godhead of Christ, either in the Psalm from which it is taken, or in this place where it is quoted. Aquila translates אלהים Elohim, by Θεε, O God, in the vocative case; and the Arabic adds the sign of the vocative ya, reading the place thus: korsee yallaho ila abadilabada, the same as in our version.

And even allowing that ὁ Θεος here is to be used as the nominative case, it will not make the sense contended for, without adding εστι to it, a reading which is not countenanced by any version, nor by any MS. yet discovered. Wiclif, Coverdale, and others, understood it as the nominative, and translated it so; and yet it is evident that this nominative has the power of the vocative: forsothe to the sone God thi troone into the world of world: a gerde of equite the gerde of thi reume.

I give this, pointing and all, as it stands in my old MS. Bible. Wiclif is nearly the same, but is evidently of a more modern cast: but to the sone he seith, God thy trone is into the world of world, a gherd of equyte is the gherd of thi rewme. Coverdale translates it thus: But unto the sonne he sayeth, God, thi seate endureth for ever and ever: the cepter of thi kyngdome is a right cepter. Tindal and others follow in the same way, all reading it in the nominative case, with the force of the vocative; for none of them has inserted the word εστι, is, because not authorized by the original: a word which the opposers of the Divinity of our Lord are obliged to beg, in order to support their interpretation. See some farther criticisms on this at the end of this chapter.
A scepter of righteousness - The scepter, which was a sort of staff or instrument of various forms, was the ensign of government, and is here used for government itself. This the ancient Jewish writers understand also of the Messiah.
Adam Clarke

There is no Chris is 'lesser' Than the Father but equal, a profound mystery and I do believe what I am typing will do no injustice to the text.
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

Let me step into this minefield... Episkopos isn't saying Jesus isn't God, but arguing that the Father is greater: something that Jesus Himself said.

He definitely isn't saying that Jesus isn't God.

I just simply want you to explain to all here how God could be greater than God.

And I mean when Jesus was NOT on earth .
Do you at least agree that He always existed?

So if there are not Two Gods...
How is one God greater than the other?

 

[Johann]

I just simply want you to explain to all here how God could be greater than God.

And I mean when Jesus was NOT on earth .
Do you at least agree that He always existed?

So if there are not Two Gods...
How is one God greater than the other?

An astute observation
J.

 

[JohnPaul]

This is hotly denied on this forum, the Deity of Christ, makes me wonder who is in charge here...

Sam, the Deity of Christ under attack, on this forum by Unitarians and monotheists, if you are, like me, believe in the Triune Godhead you will come under persecution, on this forum since the majority on this forum are Arians, or monotheistic.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus, we are all sinners, saved by our Father's grace and blessed mercy, most of us are in the valley, whilst other are already sinless, able to overcome their fleshly desires, able to control their thought processes, their will.

Remember, most of us are in a race, others have already finished the race, sitting on a mountain.

Shalom, I have put @GEN2REV on ignore, and will continue to ignore those who insist to deny the fact that Mashiach is God in the flesh, deny His incarnation,that Christ is 'lesser' and not equal to God, that Christ Jesus is a 'created being' and the Holy Spirit a mere emanation, to their own destruction.

J.

There is only one God, Jehovah who is the Father of Christ our Savior Jesus Christ, Christ is the only begotten Son of Jehovah.

Nothing is under attack.

 

[JohnPaul]

Glad I have find the attention of a staff member, this is what I mean by monotheism...


What is a monotheism in religion?
The three religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam readily fit the definition of monotheism, which is to worship one god while denying the existence of other gods. But, the relationship of the three religions is closer than that: They claim to worship the same god.

Just to clarify that.

If you have not noticed me defending the Deity of Christ Jesus peruse my posts.

I'm not here to be intimidated by no one, staff members or Admins since they are not doing a good job.
Feel free to kick me right off this forum
J.

Islam is not a religion of Judaism, but a Pagan one, do some reading where the name Allah comes from and his three daughters.

 

[mailmandan]

While the Bible does say that the Head of Christ is God (meaning the authority over Christ is God the Father as noted in 1 Cor 11:3) there is no "lesser God" vs "greater God", since the Father simply calls the Son "God" (Heb 1:8,9). Not once but twice. And there is only ONE God eternally existent as three divine persons. So while the Father has full authority over the Son, the Son is as much God as the Father. Now this is beyond human comprehension, but it is a Bible fact and a spiritual reality.

Amen! When Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I," He was speaking from his humanity. During the incarnation, Jesus was temporarily made lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) Yet speaking from His Divinity, Jesus said, "I and the Father are ONE." (John 10:30)

In John 10:33, the Jews clearly understood Jesus’ statement as a claim to be God and they accused Him of blasphemy. The Father and Son are distinct in person, yet ONE is essence/nature.

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is hotly denied on this forum, the Deity of Christ, makes me wonder who is in charge here...

Sam, the Deity of Christ under attack, on this forum by Unitarians and monotheists, if you are, like me, believe in the Triune Godhead you will come under persecution, on this forum since the majority on this forum are Arians, or monotheistic.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus, we are all sinners, saved by our Father's grace and blessed mercy, most of us are in the valley, whilst other are already sinless, able to overcome their fleshly desires, able to control their thought processes, their will.

Remember, most of us are in a race, others have already finished the race, sitting on a mountain.

Shalom, I have put @GEN2REV on ignore, and will continue to ignore those who insist to deny the fact that Mashiach is God in the flesh, deny His incarnation,that Christ is 'lesser' and not equal to God, that Christ Jesus is a 'created being' and the Holy Spirit a mere emanation, to their own destruction.

J.

Jesus is who he is Joe, you cannot change that. Best to obey his teachings and worship his God Jehovah, that is if you actually want to be saved sir. You can't honestly say that you believe that God is going to "save" anyone who worships anyone other than Him, correct? Even His son!

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Some believe Jesus is Adam's biological progeny, others do not believe
he is Adam's biological progeny.

Some believe Mary was Jesus' biological mother, others believe she was
his surrogate mother.

Some believe Jesus was born divine, others believe his divinity came later.
_

 

[Michiah-Imla]

the Deity of Christ under attack

The “trinity” is a doctrine extrapolated out of the scriptures by men. It has become a strong tradition by now.

There is no explanation of this doctrine in the whole of scripture, neither are we warned by the inspired writers of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

Certainly there are some passages that imply that Christ is God, but there are also passages that contradict them.

This is a non issue for me wether one believes Jesus is God or not.

The Bible doesn’t make heretics out of “trinity” deniers and neither do I.

 

[farouk]

The “trinity” is a doctrine extrapolated out of the scriptures by men. It has become a strong tradition by now.

There is no explanation of this doctrine in the whole of scripture, neither are we warned by the inspired writers of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

Certainly there are some passages that imply that Christ is God, but there are also passages that contradict them.

This is a non issue for me wether one believes Jesus is God or not.

The Bible doesn’t make heretics out of “trinity” deniers and neither do I.

It really is important to see God in Three Persons: End of Matthew 28; Romans 8; John's First Epistle, etc.: there is strong, Scripture witness to this vital truth.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

The “trinity” is a doctrine extrapolated out of the scriptures by men. It has become a strong tradition by now.

There is no explanation of this doctrine in the whole of scripture, neither are we warned by the inspired writers of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

Certainly there are some passages that imply that Christ is God, but there are also passages that contradict them.

This is a non issue for me wether one believes Jesus is God or not.

The Bible doesn’t make heretics out of “trinity” deniers and neither do I.

I agree with your thoughts.
So many small issues get...... blown ......out of proportion bc someone disagrees.

Dont we know that God will sort it out.
He has the FINAL SAY !

 

[GodsGrace]

There is only one God, Jehovah who is the Father of Christ our Savior Jesus Christ, Christ is the only begotten Son of Jehovah.

Nothing is under attack.

Perhaps you should find out what begotten means.

Unfortunately a very misunderstood word in the English language.

 

[GodsGrace]

The “trinity” is a doctrine extrapolated out of the scriptures by men. It has become a strong tradition by now.

There is no explanation of this doctrine in the whole of scripture, neither are we warned by the inspired writers of those who would deny that Jesus is God.

Certainly there are some passages that imply that Christ is God, but there are also passages that contradict them.

This is a non issue for me wether one believes Jesus is God or not.

The Bible doesn’t make heretics out of “trinity” deniers and neither do I.

Sir
If Jesus is not God...
You're worshipping a man.

See Commandment I