The Didache on the coming of the world-deceiver: What 1st and 2nd century saints were taught

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Jay Ross

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Your understanding and knowledge - whether real or imagined - is pointless and scores you 0 points with God. The spirit behind all your posts filled with false accusations gives you a place among those whose only 'podiums' are their self-produced infamy.

@Jay Ross PS: I'm not wasting my time with you any more.


Great, then stop posting your errors and lack of understanding of the scriptures and I will not have to point out your errors.

You react in this abusive manner when others point out the errors in your understanding and this infamy is noted by many others on the forum.

Goodbye,
 
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ewq1938

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In Revelation 13 the one being worshiped is not the one doing the miracles.


The beast is a representation of himself, like worshiping the Nazi's/Swastika was ultimately worshipping Hitler. Rev 13 also does not say anyone is claiming to be God. As you know, part of the bible provides some info, while corresponding parts elsewhere in the bible provide other info.
 

Davy

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....

What is the most striking to me about the above is what the earliest Christians were taught about this:

" ..and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning .. "
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, or Revelation 13:11? Or are both men one and the same man? Or is it talking about the one mentioned in Revelation 13:1-7?).

He does signs and wonders, and the beast if Revelation 13:1-7 is not said to do signs and wonders himself/itself. Nor does 2 Thessalonians 2 say that the man of sin is himself performing the signs and wonders.
The only one who is specifically mentioned in the New Testament to himself be doing the signs and wonders, is the beast of Revelation 13:11 (who Revelation 19 identifies as the false prophet). He has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

So my question is, who is the above world-deceiver who will appear "as the Son of God", i.e which New Testament scripture is he most likely to be identified with?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
You are misrepresenting the Rev.13 chapter, and the 2 Thess.2 chapter about that coming false one. Both of those chapters do... reveal deceptive miracle working by that false one.

In Revelation 13:11-14 about the 2nd beast, is where the coming Antichrist is mentioned, NOT at Rev.13:1-7 about the 1st beast which is about a beast 'kingdom'. And that Rev.13:11-14 Scripture shows the 2nd beast, an entity, appearing with two horns LIKE a lamb (Jesus), but will speak as a dragon (Satan). And he will rain fire from heaven upon the earth in the sight of men, and deceive the whole world by those miracles he will work.

So why did you leave that above Rev.13:11-14 Scripture out?

And with the 2 Thessalonians 2 example, Paul shows that "man of sin" will work "all power and signs and lying wonders".

So why did you leave that above 2 Thess.2:9 Scripture out?

Do you think maybe then, that the warning Lord Jesus gave in Matthew 24:23-26 about that false-Christ there coming at the end which will work "great signs and wonders" is also about this same false one that John and Paul mentioned for the end?
 

Peterlag

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Don't you like Jews?
Again, it is not referring to any Jewish people you know. The book of Revelation deals with the Jewish people before Christ left the earth. There are no Jews now which I have tried to tell you a billion times and you will not hear me because you see the Scriptures through your own eyes and I see the Bible through God's eyes.
 

Zao is life

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Great, then stop posting your errors and lack of understanding if the scriptures and I will not have to point out your errors.

You react in this abusive manner when others point out the errors in your understanding and this infamy is noted by many others on the forum.

Goodbye,
You don't even need someone to point out the errors in your understanding in an abusive manner to react in an abusive manner (like I sometimes do).

Your extremely devilish abusive manner is what begins many of your posts. Just as many on this forum will have noticed.

You do not show Christian behavior produced by Christ's Spirit.

You are the one who truly needs to stop posting your errors and lack of understanding of the scriptures so that myself and others will not have to point out your errors. You can't even read what others have actually said. It's no wonder you misinterpret the scriptures so much.

First you, Jay Ross, started with this, quoting one of my posts made to someone else that was in no way abusive, above what you said below my post, like this:
I agree, but Satan isn't visually seen or audibly heard by masses of people, so that he can mislead/deceive and rule over them all by himself. He must use a willing human agent.

" ..and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning .. " (Didache).

So from what I can see the above world-deceiver can be narrowed down to one of the following:-

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, or Revelation 13:11, or Revelation 13:1-7 / 17:8 & 11.

The others, as you say, will be working hand-in-hand with whoever that man is.

I think you may disagree that it's pointing to one person (human agent of Satan) who is going to be revealed (not sure).​
The author of the second quote above, demonstrates how effective the deceiver is in hiding in plain sight shouting, "Tis not me who is the Antichrist and the deceiver, it is that person/entity over there who has chosen to inhabit my dominion and do the things that I have led him/it/them to do."

Ephesians 6:12 tells us that we are not fighting against fellow human beings but against the wicked rebelling Heavenly hosts: -

Ephesians 6:12: - For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of [c]the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has many willing servants from among the human race to do his bidding
such that he is hidden behind the scenes of the actions being played out at his instructions to gain the upper hand over the Lord God almighty so that he can upsurge God and take his place by deceit when he appears to claim that he is our "savour" as he leads mankind down the path of destruction.

It is not surprising that many members of "Christian forums" on the net are working to further Satan's goals.

Shalom
You also quote my post below which was made to Randy, falsely implying I had accused him of something:
The gospel record of the apostles state that Pontius Pilate wanted nothing to do with the death of Christ, washing his hands of it as he handed their Messiah over to be killed, and the record makes it obvious that Caesar knew nothing of the specific events that were taking place when Christ was crucified, until after the events had already taken place.

The historical record is that roughly 40 years later the Romans had enough of the Jews and their zealot rebels constantly trying to overthrow Roman rule over Judea and Jerusalem, and so they destroyed Jerusalem and the temple.

The only reason why the Jews still 'behaved' in this way toward Rome, is because they had rejected the Messiah. For sure, Satan was behind the Jews' rejection of their Messiah and their demand that he be crucified, as well as behind Rome's (Pontius Pilate's) reluctantly granting them their wish.

However Satan was no more behind the Jewish zealot's constant rebellion against Rome (and Rome's eventual final reaction to it in 70 A.D) than he has always been behind all wars and all conflicts, since the fall of Adam.

The difference between A.D 30 when Jesus was crucified and 70 A.D is that by 70 A.D God had withdrawn from that part of israel that had been broken off from God's covenant relationship with Israel, who had been broken off through their unbelief, hence had withdrawn from involvement in the affairs of the Jews of Judea and Jerusalem who rejected Christ.​
The best form of defence against another member is to accuse them of doing the very same things that you are doing yourself.

In my posts i have pointed to a very different understanding of who the actual antichrist is and suggested that the antichrist will be an entity that is a wicked fallen heavenly host.

Now if you are suggesting that the antichrist will be a human then our understanding differs very greatly and Ephesian 6:12 is being understood very differently.

I did not accuse you of being a false prophet, but of being a good and faithful servant of Satan and as such you are presenting information which is contrary to what is recorded in the scriptures.

So if you are saying that I am a false teacher, then be careful that you are not one too.
My goodness. It's no wonder you live on an island away from civilization. You're on your own planet, let alone island. You begin with abuse and continue with abuse and then accuse the one you're talking to of being abusive.

Stay there on your island. That will be nice of you.

:waves:
 
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Zao is life

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So why did you leave that above Rev.13:11-14 Scripture out?
Davy please read my posts properly so I can read yours properly.

If you do read my post that you quoted again, please see if I mentioned Revelation 13:11. It obviously includes the verses that continue talking about that beast.

I'm asking a question in this thread. When I come up with what I see as possibly problematic to the answers I get, it's part of the discussion.​
 
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Zao is life

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The beast is a representation of himself, like worshiping the Nazi's/Swastika was ultimately worshipping Hitler. Rev 13 also does not say anyone is claiming to be God. As you know, part of the bible provides some info, while corresponding parts elsewhere in the bible provide other info.
Okay. Well the OP is asking a question so when I come up with any "objection" to what you are saying it's so that I can resolve any problem I see with associating the man of sin with the false prophet.

The reason being is because the Didache says the one who performs miracles will come "as the Son of God" (which I take to mean he will claim to be the Son of God), and though the Didache is not scripture, it was taught to the earliest Christians, and seems to come from Paul's teaching in 2 Thess 2, which links the man of sin to the miracle worker. BUT the false prophet is also a miracle worker. And he points people to worship the beast.

That's where it becomes confusing, because then we have two being worshiped - the one who claims to be God in 2 Thess 2 doing his own miracles and lying wonders, and the beast being assisted by the false prophet who is also doing miracles but pointing people to worship the beast.

So I'm hoping someone can help me out of that dilemma. Unfortunately there are some who have come into this thread with the sole purpose of launching a personal attack against me (not you, of course), which just spoils it and makes me want to forget I even asked.

But thanks for your replies, so far.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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The Didache, also known as "The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" (Διδαχὴ Κυρίου διὰ τῶν δώδεκα ἀποστόλων τοῖς ἔθνεσιν), is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise (ancient church order) written in Koine Greek, dated by modern scholars to the first or (less commonly) second century AD. (Wikipedia)

Eusebius talks about it in his “Ecclesiastical History” in Book 3 chapter 25 and calls it the Institutions of the Apostles. The exact date it was written is unknown; however, it is attributed to the first or second century. The work disappeared, but two fragments were discovered in 1782. Then an entire Didache manuscript dating to 150 AD was rediscovered in a town in Turkey, in 1873.

The following is the final chapter of 16 chapters that were taught to all Christians in the nations in the first and second centuries by those who had learned from the apostles:

Chapter 16: Watchfulness; The Coming of the Lord.

" 1. Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh.

2. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.

3. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;

4. for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, .."
(see Matthew 24:9-13)

" ..and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning .. "
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, or Revelation 13:11?).

" 5. Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself .."
(See Matthew 24:9, 21-22).

" .. 6. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead;

7. yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him .."
(see Matthew 24:29-30; as well as the last sentence of Zechariah 14:5; as well as Revelation 19:14 and Revelation 17:14).

" 8. .. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven."
(See Matthew 24:30-31).

What is the most striking to me about the above is what the earliest Christians were taught about this:

" ..and then shall appear the world-deceiver as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning .. "
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-10, or Revelation 13:11? Or are both men one and the same man? Or is it talking about the one mentioned in Revelation 13:1-7?).

He does signs and wonders, and the beast if Revelation 13:1-7 is not said to do signs and wonders himself/itself. Nor does 2 Thessalonians 2 say that the man of sin is himself performing the signs and wonders.
The only one who is specifically mentioned in the New Testament to himself be doing the signs and wonders, is the beast of Revelation 13:11 (who Revelation 19 identifies as the false prophet). He has two horns like a lamb but speaks like a dragon.

So my question is, who is the above world-deceiver who will appear "as the Son of God", i.e which New Testament scripture is he most likely to be identified with?
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

PS: I don't have an answer to my own question.
Just from what you posted here, I can see why the "Didache" wasn't accepted as cannonical. Scholars have stated that much of it is copied from Matthew, paraphrased, as many priests or pastors might do with any if the scriptures. It doesn't make it wrong just redundant.
#3 caught my eye: "sheep's turned into wolves". ??? Don" think so. The Lord's sheep are His and nothing can snatch them out of His hand.
Anyways, you are quoting scriptures of this Didache that is itself a document filled with quotes from the original accepted scriptures and added thoughts.
This was not an inspired book by God, just editorial/ commentary literature. Okay to read but there doesn't seem to be any additional Revelation from God.
 
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Zao is life

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Just from what you posted here, I can see why the "Didache" wasn't accepted as cannonical. Scholars have stated that much of it is copied from Matthew, paraphrased, as many priests or pastors might do with any if the scriptures. It doesn't make it wrong just redundant.
#3 caught my eye: "sheep's turned into wolves". ??? Don" think so. The Lord's sheep are His and nothing can snatch them out of His hand.
Anyways, you are quoting scriptures of this Didache that is itself a document filled with quotes from the original accepted scriptures and added thoughts.
This was not an inspired book by God, just editorial/ commentary literature. Okay to read but there doesn't seem to be any additional Revelation from God.
It's true what you say above. It does not resolve my question regarding what is written in scripture as mentioned in Post #47. I'm fully able to ignore the Didache for the reply as to that question in Post #27, which always must come from scripture and not from any external source. The Didache was only the thing that got that question popping up in my mind again.
 

Jay Ross

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You are the one who truly needs to stop posting your errors and lack of understanding of the scriptures so that myself and others will not have to point out your errors. You can't even read what others have actually said. It's no wonder you misinterpret the scriptures so much.

Ah Fullness of the Gentiles, it seems that you are the only one trying to suggest that what I have posted is in error. However, it seems to me that there are also others who are pointing out the errors in what you post.

Below is the port of post #3 of yours that I had referenced: -
I agree, but Satan isn't visually seen or audibly heard by masses of people, so that he can mislead/deceive and rule over them all by himself. He must use a willing human agent.

To which I had had replied with this: -
The author of the second quote above, demonstrates how effective the deceiver is in hiding in plain sight shouting, "Tis not me who is the Antichrist and the deceiver, it is that person/entity over there who has chosen to inhabit my dominion and do the things that I have led him/it/them to do."

Ephesians 6:12 tells us that we are not fighting against fellow human beings but against the wicked rebelling Heavenly hosts: -

Ephesians 6:12: - For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of [c]the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Satan has many willing servants from among the human race to do his bidding such that he is hidden behind the scenes of the actions being played out at his instructions to gain the upper hand over the Lord God almighty so that he can upsurge God and take his place by deceit when he appears to claim that he is our "savour" as he leads mankind down the path of destruction.

It is not surprising that many members of "Christian forums" on the net are working to further Satan's goals.

Now you are claiming that I was being abusive with this post #4 above.

Now your response was this in Post #14: -

Yes, we do not wrestle with flesh and blood but with the spiritual forces of darkness behind them. So I will speak not to you, but to the spirit who is behind your words above:

The Lord rebuke you, Satan. The Lord Jesus Christ rebuke you. You know fully well HE is my Lord and not the ones whose mouths you may use to falsely accuse me or anyone else they accuse. He - the Lord Jesus Christ my Savior - has already defeated you. The Lord rebuke you, Satan.

In the above post, with your slight of hand, you effectively claimed that I was an agent of Satan's in post #15 below: -

You mean anyone who disagrees with what Jay Ross says. So you are equating yourself with that wicked heavenly host, because you are pointing to yourself and not towards the wicked heavenly host who you assert is going to act as the Antichrist.

"Peace to you" he always says, after he acts on behalf of the king of the wicked heavenly host - the accuser of the brethren - by falsely accusing the brethren.
. . . . .

According to you anyone who disagrees with what Jay Ross says when Jay Ross points towards a wicked heavenly host who is going to act as the Antichrist after they have been released from the bottomless pit,

are going to be the ones to act as the Antichrist after they have been released from the bottomless pit.

You are a false teacher. And you have willingly submitted your mouth to the accuser who falsely accuses the brethren.

And this is how I responded to your accusation of being a false prophet in post # 29: -

The best form of defence against another member is to accuse them of doing the very same things that you are doing yourself.

In my posts i have pointed to a very different understanding of who the actual antichrist is and suggested that the antichrist will be an entity that is a wicked fallen heavenly host.

Now if you are suggesting that the antichrist will be a human then our understanding differs very greatly and Ephesian 6:12 is being understood very differently.

I did not accuse you of being a false prophet, but of being a good and faithful servant of Satan and as such you are presenting information which is contrary to what is recorded in the scriptures.

So if you are saying that I am a false teacher, then be careful that you are not one too.

Then in Post #30 I commented on the misunderstanding of the scriptures that you had presented: -

Wow, Such a poor understanding of the Scriptures.

The Beast of Rev 13, we are informed in Rev 17, comes up out of the abyss after it has been locked for 1,000 years, after they are judged in heaven and dispatched into the pit for many days to await the time of their punishment, at the same time as Satan, the False prophet and the judged kings of the earth. During the 1,000 years of Satan, the beast and the False Prophet, and the judged kings of the earth are imprisoned for 1,000 years, there will be peace on the earth during the time of the Great harvest of souls into the Kingdom of God.

Oh well, each to their own peculiar understanding.

Who will be found to be right? I wonder if Fullness of the Gentiles will have a podium place upon which to stand.

This is your response: -

The one who is puffed up and arrogant and full of false accusations will have no "podium on which to stand", regardless of his knowledge or whether or not he was wrong or right about his understanding of any portion of Bible prophecy.

That one will stand who understands that biblical prophecy and the Revelation of Jesus Christ is not about creating podiums for people to stand on, but that the only thing that matters to Christ is the one whose works show obedience to the commandment of Christ produced by the fruit of the Spirit, and where the is any knowledge and understanding of prophecy, it will cease.

For example, the one who knows why God hates evil and false accusations and the spirit behind them, will have a much better chance of remaining standing, and it has nothing to do with his understanding of prophecy.

The works of one who claims to be sent (appointed by God) to reveal "hidden mysteries" will not stand, because he is a false prophet.


If you had stopped with "comes up out of the abyss" and not added something (your own words) to sacred scripture with the words "after it has been locked for 1,000 years" (which Revelation 17 does not say), then there would be a reason to consider what you are saying.

However, the way of putting it that would show a Christ-like approach to the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ (instead of puffed up pride), would be simply something like,

".. which, it seems to me, must be pointing to the thousand years, because Revelation 13 tells us that it's Satan who will give the beast his seat, power and great authority, and the first time anything is mentioned about Satan being locked in the abyss, is in Revelation 20".

Not necessarily those words, but something like those words, and without adding your own words to any portion of scripture - your own words which express your own understanding and interpretation of the passage.

That better sort of speech would show that at the forefront of your mind always, is the commandment of the One who you claim is your Lord, and this would only be the case if entirely absent from your speech, has been any prior and recent false and evil accusation leveled at someone who belongs to Christ, who He purchased with His blood,

as well as any insinuation of who's "understanding" will stand, or mention of any 'podium', as though if your understanding is correct, you scored points with Christ (you do not - no one scores any points with God just because his understanding of a prophetic portion of scripture may be correct).

Why is it even necessary for me or anyone else to correct your speech and point to the spirit behind your false and very personal accusations?

You owe me a public apology because of your previous post and false accusation, which was public. Until you do, I'm ignoring any further posts from you. I have also never claimed to be someone who is sent (by God) to reveal any 'hidden mystery'.
It's a pity, because what you said about the timing of the beast coming up from out of the abyss was at least thought-provoking, but I would have wanted to know why then the close of Revelation 20 seems to place the destruction of Satan in the lake of fire a thousand years after the beast and false prophet have been destroyed in the same lake of fire (I said seems to).

But unfortunately I won't talk to you again until I have an apology from you.

I'm not holding my breath, because your track record has me believing that you're far more likely to just double-down with your own puffed up accusations produced by a spirit that is not the Spirit of Christ.

Your knowledge is nothing. Your understanding pointless. Even if you are correct in certain respects - because it is Jesus who reveals, and you who understood (if you have understood correctly). It gives you no points. Neither does the spirit behind your speech.

What is the point of me continuing. The members will judge us on what we post.

Your misunderstandings of the scriptures are there for all to see.

Goodbye
 

Jay Ross

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My goodness. It's no wonder you live on an island away from civilization. You're on your own planet, let alone island. You begin with abuse and continue with abuse and then accuse the one you're talking to of being abusive.

The island is where I have unpacked my bags at present. On Boxing Day, I will be flying home. Now is not what I have quoted abusive and totally unnecessary.

Goodbye
 

Davy

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Davy please read my posts properly so I can read yours properly.
Oh, I read what you posted, verbatim.

My point was why didn't you POST-QUOTE those Rev.13:11-14 and 2 Thess.2:9 Scriptures which show emphatically the one who will work those great signs and wonders? Just a mention in passing is not enough for those here who are not familiar with what those verses actually say as written.

And if... you had... literally posted those verses and gone over them, then maybe you would have answered your 'own' question, and even discovered it impossible for the 1st beast of Rev.13:1 to be a person.

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

"another beast" = a 2nd beast. The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is a kingdom that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

"coming up out of the earth" = what is the "beast" of Rev.11:7 that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem, leaving their dead bodies laying in the street? Satan.

"dragon" = another title for Satan himself.

NOTHING MENTIONED THERE ABOUT THE 'FALSE PROPHET'. Trying to insert the "false prophet" there in place of that 2nd beast, which will be Satan as the beast king, is what doctrines of men do to confuse that it will be Satan himself on earth doing these things at the end. (As if some flesh-born man could come up out of the earth, ascending out of the bottomless pit, now that's funny!)

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.


That "another beast", Satan, the "dragon", will use all the power of that 1st beast kingdom which has the seven heads, which one of those seven heads suffered a deadly wound, and when Satan comes to play Christ, he will heal that deadly wound upon that same head, which represent "mountains" per Rev.17.

13 And
he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
KJV


All you needed to do was just read that above Rev.13:11-14 Scripture to answer your own question.

Do I have to do this with 2 Thessalonians 2:9 for you also? and the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture?
 

Zao is life

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Oh, I read what you posted, verbatim.

My point was why didn't you POST-QUOTE those Rev.13:11-14 and 2 Thess.2:9 Scriptures which show emphatically the one who will work those great signs and wonders? Just a mention in passing is not enough for those here who are not familiar with what those verses actually say as written.

And if... you had... literally posted those verses and gone over them, then maybe you would have answered your 'own' question, and even discovered it impossible for the 1st beast of Rev.13:1 to be a person.

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld
another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

"another beast" = a 2nd beast. The 1st beast of Rev.13:1 is a kingdom that is to have ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns.

"coming up out of the earth" = what is the "beast" of Rev.11:7 that will ascend out of the bottomless pit and kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem, leaving their dead bodies laying in the street? Satan.

"dragon" = another title for Satan himself.

NOTHING MENTIONED THERE ABOUT THE 'FALSE PROPHET'. Trying to insert the "false prophet" there in place of that 2nd beast, which will be Satan as the beast king, is what doctrines of men do to confuse that it will be Satan himself on earth doing these things at the end. (As if some flesh-born man could come up out of the earth, ascending out of the bottomless pit, now that's funny!)
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

Who deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and who did signs before the first beast of Revelation 13?
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

All you needed to do was just read that above Rev.13:11-14 Scripture to answer your own question.

Do I have to do this with 2 Thessalonians 2:9 for you also? and the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture?
Back on ignore. I remember I had a very, very good reason for placing you in my ignore list in the first place for a good couple of months.

One day when I think you know what you're talking about most of the time (instead of only sometimes, as it is now), and you do not dress most of your posts up in battle-gear and in attacking mode most of the time, I'll take you off my ignore list again.

Deal :vgood:

Thank you @Randy Kluth , @ewq1938 , @ScottA , @rwb , @Peterlag for your valuable contributions.

I don't agree with any of you about everything you said, and some I agree with none of what you said, but at least your contributions are all valuable in terms of the variety of different ideas (and total absence of personal attack).

@Peterlag here's my public apology for attacking you in another thread because of your attack on the doctrine of the Trinity. I find it almost impossible to know where you are coming from, and unfair (to say the least) that you refused to tell us and have never told us which Bible version you were using when you changed words in scripture in your quotes, that vastly changed the meaning and affected the doctrine of the Trinity (in that other thread), but at least I now know that I will probably never know what you believe or don't believe, because I find it vague and kind of 'hidden in another version of the Bible'.

Whatever it is you believe, it's now obvious to me that it's outside of mainstream Christianity, but at least there has been no personal attack mixed with what I regard as unblblical and non-Christian statements - so your contribution in this thread is nevertheless valuable, because it's another angle or opinion (which is what I was looking for).

But this thread has been going nowhere good because of the inability of some to control themselves, and so because the Didache is not scripture anyway, I'm not coming back to look at thus thread again, even though I started it.​
 
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Davy

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And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.
The "beast" and "false prophet" are merely ROLES that the 2nd beast ("another beast") will play. You should have figured that out easily since they cannot be about flesh men. Why? Simply because Rev.19:20 is about the timing of Christ's future return on the last day, PRIOR to God's GWT Judgment. And NO flesh-born man is judged and sentenced to perish in the future "lake of fire" that ONLY happens AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign. The only ones you will find written in God's Word that are already judged and sentenced to 'perish' in that "lake of fire" is Satan and his angels. Thus the "beast" and "false prophet" of Rev.19:20 must... be ROLES that Satan plays, which is according to this type of operation...

1. "dragon" = Satan, not destroyed yet at Christ's coming.
2. "beast" = Satan as the coming 'beast' king, and the 'beast' representing his beast kingdom.
3. "false prophet" = Satan playing the Role of Jesus Christ, Who also is a Prophet per Deut.18.

Both the offices of the 'beast' king, and 'beast' kingdom, and 'false prophet' are all destroyed by Christ at His future coming.

4. the working of "miracles" by all 3, the "beast", "false prophet", and "dragon", is to show that is will be Satan as the "another beast" performing all those roles with his working of great signs and wonders.

You can also WELCOME MY IGNORE LIST.
 

ewq1938

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Okay. Well the OP is asking a question so when I come up with any "objection" to what you are saying it's so that I can resolve any problem I see with associating the man of sin with the false prophet.

The reason being is because the Didache says the one who performs miracles will come "as the Son of God" (which I take to mean he will claim to be the Son of God), and though the Didache is not scripture, it was taught to the earliest Christians, and seems to come from Paul's teaching in 2 Thess 2, which links the man of sin to the miracle worker. BUT the false prophet is also a miracle worker. And he points people to worship the beast.

Which is his beast, his kingdom that he rules. Keep in mind Daniels ten horned beast is a kingdom not a person. The person is the little horn. In Rev the ten horned beast is still a kingdom not a person but the singular person is a separate beast rather than a new horn on the ten horned beast. The English hides it, but the FP has two little horns of a lambkin. That is a direct relation and nod to Daniels little horn, just new aned improved in the newer vision of these things.




That's where it becomes confusing, because then we have two being worshiped - the one who claims to be God in 2 Thess 2 doing his own miracles and lying wonders, and the beast being assisted by the false prophet who is also doing miracles but pointing people to worship the beast.


Note that Paul doesn't mention a ten horned kingdom being worshipped. No two books contain the same info. Paul's miracle worker is worshipped, John's miracle worker directs worship to his own kingdom but it's really two sides of the same coin. The part to take note of is the singular person performing miracles to deceive and some type worship taking place.



So I'm hoping someone can help me out of that dilemma. Unfortunately there are some who have come into this thread with the sole purpose of launching a personal attack against me (not you, of course), which just spoils it and makes me want to forget I even asked.

But thanks for your replies, so far.

No problem.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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It's true what you say above. It does not resolve my question regarding what is written in scripture as mentioned in Post #47. I'm fully able to ignore the Didache for the reply as to that question in Post #27, which always must come from scripture and not from any external source. The Didache was only the thing that got that question popping up in my mind again.
" ... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God ..." 2 Thes. 2:3-4

The Antichrist is called the Son of perdition. He doesn't called himself the Son of God, he calls himself God. I don't think he portrays himself to be Jesus. He hates Christ, Jews and Christians and kills them. He is not going to say I am Christ and then kill those who believe in him. I know some believe him to be a counterfeit Christ. Where does it say that in scripture?
The Beast (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is a group of nations and leaders that come against Israel and Christianity - which is happening right now (Islamic terrorists).
Then the Antichrist gets his power from Satan. I suspect this man is possessed by Satan, which gives him the audacity, pride and arrogance to present himself as God.
 

Truthnightmare

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" ... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God ..." 2 Thes. 2:3-4

The Antichrist is called the Son of perdition. He doesn't called himself the Son of God, he calls himself God. I don't think he portrays himself to be Jesus. He hates Christ, Jews and Christians and kills them. He is not going to say I am Christ and then kill those who believe in him. I know some believe him to be a counterfeit Christ. Where does it say that in scripture?
The Beast (with 7 heads and 10 horns) is a group of nations and leaders that come against Israel and Christianity - which is happening right now (Islamic terrorists).
Then the Antichrist gets his power from Satan. I suspect this man is possessed by Satan, which gives him the audacity, pride and arrogance to present himself as God.
I agree he hates Jesus, but I don’t believe that will stop him from pretending to be Jesus.
 
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ewq1938

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I know some believe him to be a counterfeit Christ. Where does it say that in scripture?

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is a copy of Christs return on a white horse, with a crown.


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Not an exact copy, but close enough to trick people into thinking he is christ. Too many parallels to deny what satan is trying to do, and who he means to impersonate.


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

anti means "instead of" or an "impersonator of"

In Revelation the term antichrist or even false christ is not used, but the term false prophet is used.

5578

5578 pseudoprophetes {psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace}

from 5571 and 4396; TDNT - 6:781,952; n m

AV - false prophet 11; 11

1) one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters
falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2) a false prophet


This is because Christ was a prophet, so satan will impersonate Christ as a false prophet, a false lamb, a false king, a false god...and on and on...all these things are done through the role of AC.








Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Since Christ is known as the Lamb of God, for this beast to also be described in lamb-esque terms mirrors Christ.




Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Many as types will come saying they are Christ, so too will the fulfillment of the types, the false prophet beast himself.



Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


"I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north"

This is a reference to Gods throne.

"I will be like the most High"

I believe Lucifer is satan and that the antichrist is either satan in disguise, or a person satan possesses.


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

"shewing himself that he is God"

Christ is God, so to impersonate Christ in the tribulation is to show yourself as "God"




Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



01966 heylel {hay-lale'}

from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m

AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


satan used to be the "son of the morning" which is the "morning star"...now Christ has taken that title from him:

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


"the bright and morning star"




1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

take note that he says antichrist singular shall come, denoting the end times...but that as a type there are antichrists even at that time...but until they see the AC it isnt the end times yet.

what he is saying is this, "the AC shall come, and thats how we will know its the end times" and then as a side comment he mentions that there are many types of the AC already but only the appearance of the one true AC denotes the end part of the endtimes.




John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist
shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the
last time.

antichrist
500

500 antichristos {an-tee'-khris-tos}

from 473 and 5547; TDNT - 9:493,1322; n m

AV - antichrist 5; 5

1) the adversary of the Messiah


anti
473

473 anti {an-tee'}

a primary particle; TDNT - 1:372,61; prep

AV - for 15, because + 3639 4, for ... cause 1, therefore + 3639 1,
in the room of 1; 22

1) over against, opposite to, before
2) for, instead of, in place of (something)
2a) instead of
2b) for
2c) for that, because
2d) wherefore, for this cause

clearly, the word can mean both....and surely by impersonating/taking the place of
Christ would therefore make this person an adversary of Christ at the same time.

As we learned from daniel and Paul, by claiming to be God/Christ satan will in fact
be not only exalting himself ABOVE God but will also be opposing the true God.

Matthew 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea IN THE
ROOM OF his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being
warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Note that the "in the room of" is the word "anti" in the greek, and from sentence
context we know that Archelaus actually was not herods adversary, but that he was ruling
in his place, "instead of" his father.

The antichrist will do no differently except he takes the throne improperly and will
only rule for that hour and then be cast into the pit for his crimes, and eventually
be destroyed.


1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here we have "like figure" which is anti-tupos in the Greek. This anti is the same word in Antichrist yet in this verse the anti-tupos means a "like" or similar thing.






2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Christ is God, so to sit in the temple and claim to be God is the same difference as
saying one is Christ.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he
had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Its no coincidence that the antichrist appears as a lamb, which is symbolism for
Christ. Satan is the false lamb, the false Christ, the anti/in stead of copy cat.


Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a
bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to
conquer.



Here is another account of his appearance, again copying Christ. I surely hope no
one thinks this is actually the true Christ returning. If so, you can check out the
word "bow" here and learn its a poor imitation of the real thing.



5115
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.



Christ’s return as the true lamb is spoken of in the 6th seal making this first seal
someone other than Christ.

so clearly, this Ac does indeed copy Christ and wish to take his place and he
always has.




1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



This passage makes it clear that whosoever denies that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist.



As well as outright denying, there is the lack of confessing which is also the spirit of Antichrist:




1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.






2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



And more of the same.



Do not think the only way to be an Antichrist is to deny or not confess Christ. There are other definitions such as imitating Christ which is also being an or The Antichrist which is essentially equal to deny Christ because you are wanting or claiming to be Christ so that is to deny the true Christ.
 
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Truthnightmare

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Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This is a copy of Christs return on a white horse, with a crown.


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Not an exact copy, but close enough to trick people into thinking he is christ. Too many parallels to deny what satan is trying to do, and who he means to impersonate.


1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

anti means "instead of" or an "impersonator of"

In Revelation the term antichrist or even false christ is not used, but the term false prophet is used.

5578

5578 pseudoprophetes {psyoo-dop-rof-ay'-tace}

from 5571 and 4396; TDNT - 6:781,952; n m

AV - false prophet 11; 11

1) one who, acting the part of a divinely inspired prophet, utters
falsehoods under the name of divine prophecies
2) a false prophet


This is because Christ was a prophet, so satan will impersonate Christ as a false prophet, a false lamb, a false king, a false god...and on and on...all these things are done through the role of AC.








Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.


Since Christ is known as the Lamb of God, for this beast to also be described in lamb-esque terms mirrors Christ.




Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Many as types will come saying they are Christ, so too will the fulfillment of the types, the false prophet beast himself.



Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


"I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north"

This is a reference to Gods throne.

"I will be like the most High"

I believe Lucifer is satan and that the antichrist is either satan in disguise, or a person satan possesses.


2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

"shewing himself that he is God"

Christ is God, so to impersonate Christ in the tribulation is to show yourself as "God"




Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!



01966 heylel {hay-lale'}

from 01984 (in the sense of brightness); TWOT - 499a; n m

AV - Lucifer 1; 1

Lucifer = "light-bearer"
1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer
1a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)
2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon


satan used to be the "son of the morning" which is the "morning star"...now Christ has taken that title from him:

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


"the bright and morning star"




1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

take note that he says antichrist singular shall come, denoting the end times...but that as a type there are antichrists even at that time...but until they see the AC it isnt the end times yet.

what he is saying is this, "the AC shall come, and thats how we will know its the end times" and then as a side comment he mentions that there are many types of the AC already but only the appearance of the one true AC denotes the end part of the endtimes.




John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist
shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the
last time.

antichrist
500

500 antichristos {an-tee'-khris-tos}

from 473 and 5547; TDNT - 9:493,1322; n m

AV - antichrist 5; 5

1) the adversary of the Messiah


anti
473

473 anti {an-tee'}

a primary particle; TDNT - 1:372,61; prep

AV - for 15, because + 3639 4, for ... cause 1, therefore + 3639 1,
in the room of 1; 22

1) over against, opposite to, before
2) for, instead of, in place of (something)
2a) instead of
2b) for
2c) for that, because
2d) wherefore, for this cause

clearly, the word can mean both....and surely by impersonating/taking the place of
Christ would therefore make this person an adversary of Christ at the same time.

As we learned from daniel and Paul, by claiming to be God/Christ satan will in fact
be not only exalting himself ABOVE God but will also be opposing the true God.

Matthew 2:22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea IN THE
ROOM OF his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being
warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Note that the "in the room of" is the word "anti" in the greek, and from sentence
context we know that Archelaus actually was not herods adversary, but that he was ruling
in his place, "instead of" his father.

The antichrist will do no differently except he takes the throne improperly and will
only rule for that hour and then be cast into the pit for his crimes, and eventually
be destroyed.


1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Here we have "like figure" which is anti-tupos in the Greek. This anti is the same word in Antichrist yet in this verse the anti-tupos means a "like" or similar thing.






2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called
God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
shewing himself that he is God.

Christ is God, so to sit in the temple and claim to be God is the same difference as
saying one is Christ.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he
had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Its no coincidence that the antichrist appears as a lamb, which is symbolism for
Christ. Satan is the false lamb, the false Christ, the anti/in stead of copy cat.


Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a
bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to
conquer.



Here is another account of his appearance, again copying Christ. I surely hope no
one thinks this is actually the true Christ returning. If so, you can check out the
word "bow" here and learn its a poor imitation of the real thing.



5115
toxon
tox'-on
From the base of G5088; a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric): - bow.



Christ’s return as the true lamb is spoken of in the 6th seal making this first seal
someone other than Christ.

so clearly, this Ac does indeed copy Christ and wish to take his place and he
always has.




1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



This passage makes it clear that whosoever denies that Jesus is the Christ is antichrist.



As well as outright denying, there is the lack of confessing which is also the spirit of Antichrist:




1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.






2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



And more of the same.



Do not think the only way to be an Antichrist is to deny or not confess Christ. There are other definitions such as imitating Christ which is also being an or The Antichrist which is essentially equal to deny Christ because you are wanting or claiming to be Christ so that is to deny the true Christ.
I don’t think Rev 6:2 is Christ.