The Doctrine of OSAS

[John S]

CRFTD - It DOES mean that.
If I claim that I am "saved" and therefore, I'm going to Heaven, then I AM claiming that I have determined that no matter how I behave in the future, I'm going to Heaven - and it doesn't matter what God thinks. It only matters what I think.
That is a disgraceful belief.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

CRFTD - It DOES mean that.
If I claim that I am "saved" and therefore, I'm going to Heaven, then I AM claiming that I have determined that no matter how I behave in the future, I'm going to Heaven - and it doesn't matter what God thinks. It only matters what I think.
That is a disgraceful belief.

To you it might mean that, but to those who know better know 1) they have eternal life because GOD says so, and 2) they must guard that life from being quenched by sin.

 

[justaname]

You are mistaken on exactly what the doctrine is. Perhaps others may have a perverted view on what the doctrine is and you have discussed the topic, but I assure you it is not what you believe it to be.

Before you get ahead of yourself, let's find out...


The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)
That's pointing to the concept of Calvinism, that those saved are under predesinted fate, and not under their own free will. It is only an excuse to declare that one who once believed falls away from Christ was never... a real believer on Him in the first place. Once again, that is the idea of fate, and not the responsibility of the individual to make a 'choice'.
Further, the idea of persevering there is being used against the idea of the next quote...

Actually this is the definition of the doctrine, nothing more.

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God's giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon
Though I don't like his terminology, I get his point, but he's also pointing to predestined fate and not free will choice. It is free will choice by which one must accept Christ, and it is free willl choice for a believer that later decides to reject Him. Spurgeon's idea leaves no room for the latter, except only to say Christ's grace never was at work with the one who later fell away.
The fact that our Lord Jesus said all manner of sin can be forgiven of men, except for the unpardonable sin, Spurgeon leaves NO room even for the existence of the unpardonable sin, a sin which points to a believer that once tasted of the gifts and power of the world to come through Christ Jesus, but then rejects Him later (Hebrews 5 & 6).

I do not hold that the blaspheming of the HolySpirit can happen in this day and age. I believe it to pertain to those who were present with the Lord during His incarnation attributing His works to the devil.
I see Spurgeon being clear and concise in his statement. Those who say they chose God are dependent on themselves for salvation, those who say God chose them are dependent on God for their salvation.

For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place."
D.A. Carson
Throw away his argument of non-reformed vs reformed; that idea is irrelevant. Carson likewise is saying the same things as the previous quotes, i.e., Salvation is assured because it rest with God, and not with the believer. Once again that's Calvinism's idea of predestination fate, i.e., a true believer won't fall away because God won't allow it. That's NOT what God's Word teaches at all though.

Respectfully I disagree with you here. God's word does teach that.

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

God finishes what He begins.

It's these kind of concepts that cause the erroneous idea that Faith and actions by the believer under God's Grace has no effect upon their salvation. It's what leads to the false idea that one within this fold can no longer be subject to sin. That has lead in later years to the preaching that these cannot sin, and thus the Once Saved Aways Saved doctrine of men
Am I showing that I don't understand the OSAS doctrine? You'd be very wrong if you thought so.

Simply because someone adds error to the doctrine does not mean the doctrine itself is in error. If that were true Gnosticism would have dethroned Christianity long ago.

I don't know if you will understand the following. But I'm going to say it anyway.
Apostle Paul spoke of the idea of predestination especially within the Romans 8 chapter which is on a different type admonition than many of his other admonitions to the Churches. In many of his Epistles he is continually warning brethren to not sin, warning them to remain focused in Christ, work out their own salvation, etc., and especially beware of allowing any man to deceive them.
Now if Apostle Paul's teaching truly aligned with the Calvinist traditions of those above quotes, then Paul would have had no need to do such admonishing of the brethren to stay in Christ and not fall away like he did.

This statement is in error because Paul is seeking to protect the true gospel. None can continue to hear the gospel and attain salvation if the message is perverted.

But notice how the Rom.8 Scripture reads differently...

Rom 8:28-31
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
(KJV)

Well, did even Apostle Paul forget about Christ's Own Words about the unpardonable sin? Did Paul also forget about Christ saying many are called but few are chosen? Did Paul also forget about our Lord's warnings about the five foolish virgins, and those of Matt.7 that cast out devils in His Name and have many wonderful works in His Name, but Christ tells to get away from Him when He comes?
Here Paul is getting ready to leave the brethren, and he warns them to take heed, because after his departing he knew wolves would come in not sparing the flock.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)
In his Epistle to Timothy, Paul also warns how the time would come when some would not endure sound doctrine and turn away from the truth (2 Tim.4).
Does that mean those believers never were actually offered true Salvation through Christ Jesus? No, of course not.

That means those who were saved were always going to be saved, and those grievous wolves never were going to be saved. If Paul spoke of them before his departure, surely God knew of their arise before it happened and was never going to save them.

The difference is spelled out in John 17 with what our Lord Jesus prayed. Revealed there are two groups, one being His elect 'chosen' servants The Father owned and gave to Christ. The other group are those who would come to believe on Christ Jesus through His elect's word (i.e., their preaching of The Gospel). The first group, like Christ's Apostles, are 'called' and... 'chosen', and the second group of believers are 'called' only.

I concur with the idea that Jesus was praying about two different groups, but it extended only to His immediate disciples at the time. To continue though in that prayer we have...
“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Jesus Himself requests that the group is made into one. Do you believe His request went unanswered? Is Christ divided?

I assure you, Apostle Paul understood this distinction between two groups of believers on our Lord Jesus. When Paul was continually admonishing the brethren in the Churches to watch and remain spritiually sober, he knew he was speaking to those 'called' only that can... by their own free will... choose to fall away from Christ. That's why those need continual admonishing to stay in Christ Jesus in order to become joined with His elect 'chosen'.
Christ's chosen sent elect cannot... be swayed to fall away from Christ Jesus.

Clearly you see division in Christ and that is your teaching. Some are elected by God whereas others must work for their salvation.

Ephesians 1 speaks directly against your false teaching.

John 17:5-10
5 And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine Own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.
10 And all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
(KJV)

That's ownership, about Christ's elect that belonged to The Father Who gave them to Christ. Apostle Paul was one of those. The example of Christ intervening directly with Paul to put him in His service is an example of this ownership of His elect 'chosen' sent ones.
Those are especially who the Romans 8 Scripture is about, the truly predestinated, sanctified, and glorified, the chosen elect.
But here's about the rest of us who are 'called' only...

Again Ephesians 1 speaks directly against this false teaching.

John 17:18-21
18 As Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
(KJV)

The meaing of the word apostle from the Greek means to be 'sent'. Christ's 'chosen' elect are 'sent' by Him into this world, even as The Father 'sent' Christ into the world. That's about ownership again.

Christ's chosen are saved. Evangelists are sent, as well as Apostles, as well as teachers and preachers.

Those of us who come to believe on Jesus through the word of His elect Apostles are 'called', not 'sent', but 'called' only. We must... by our OWN free will... seek to stay in Christ Jesus. We CAN still fall away from Christ IF we are not careful.

Again you teach we are dependent on ourselves for salvation, not God. Our "free will" is sovereign over our salvation, as opposed to God. Thereby glory be to ourselves for us being saved because we made the right choice! Phooey.

But what Calvin, et al did was to take Scripture like Romans 8 which is especially about the chosen elect of Christ that can NEVER fall away, they took that idea and wrongly began applying it to the whole Church on earth, making it as if it were impossible for a believer to lose their salvation, nor able to fall away from our Lord Jesus Christ. Yet Christ's Apostles continually warned brethren about abiding in fleshy lusts and sin to their destruction if they didn't repent and make a change. That is how the OSAS doctrine started.

Romans 8 is about believers and verse 32 affirms this.
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

The elect refers to all who are saved. This particular passage was written to extol the believers for the time of persecution that was impending, not to divide Christ as you teach.

 

[veteran]

CRFTD - It DOES mean that.
If I claim that I am "saved" and therefore, I'm going to Heaven, then I AM claiming that I have determined that no matter how I behave in the future, I'm going to Heaven - and it doesn't matter what God thinks. It only matters what I think.
That is a disgraceful belief.

That is... the gist of the OSAS doctrine.

To you it might mean that, but to those who know better know 1) they have eternal life because GOD says so, and 2) they must guard that life from being quenched by sin.

But your no.2 is OPPOSITE of the OSAS doctrine.

So you're words actually show AGREEMENT with what John S said.

Actually this is the definition of the doctrine, nothing more.

I don't see how you can in 'honesty', say that. You would have to strike at least half of Apostle Paul's Epistles where he warned the brethren against sin and being deceived in order to hold to that. It shows you care MORE about those men's doctrines instead of what The Word of God in Paul's Epistles teach. Paul did say that many would turn away from sound doctrine.


I do not hold that the blaspheming of the HolySpirit can happen in this day and age. I believe it to pertain to those who were present with the Lord during His incarnation attributing His works to the devil.
I see Spurgeon being clear and concise in his statement. Those who say they chose God are dependent on themselves for salvation, those who say God chose them are dependent on God for their salvation.

Well, the idea that The Holy Spirit doesn't work in the lives of Christ's believers today is also... a doctrine originating from men. So that's a second example of what I said you're choosing to heed men's doctrines over God's Holy Writ.


Respectfully I disagree with you here. God's word does teach that.

Philippians 1:6
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

God finishes what He begins.

Don't be fooled, that applies ONLY for those who 'stay' in Christ Jesus and don't fall away. Remember 2 Timothy 4 again? Apostle Peter gave the warning too...

2 Pet 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
(KJV)

Those who deny The Lord That bought them is ONLY about a believer on Christ Jesus that falls away from Him and becomes an apostate. You tried to show me one verse to support those quotes, now I have shown 2 Scriptures that reveal God's Word does NOT support your quotes.

Those who don't stay on Christ Jesus CAN fall away unto their own destruction, even AFTER they had believed on Him and He had 'purchased' them by His Blood shed on the cross! That is exactly... what Apostle Peter is saying there. Their acts of denying Christ after He had 'bought' them is what the unpardonable sin is about.

There is no room for their salvation if they deny Him after having been bought.

Per your words and your quotes, that should NEVER even be possible.


Simply because someone adds error to the doctrine does not mean the doctrine itself is in error. If that were true Gnosticism would have dethroned Christianity long ago.

That Calvinist OSAS doctrine began in error. Error didn't have to slip into it. Likewise with Gnosticism, it was error to begin with, which is why it could never... have conquered Christianity.


This statement is in error because Paul is seeking to protect the true gospel. None can continue to hear the gospel and attain salvation if the message is perverted.

You choose to be grossly deceived then if you believe what I said there was error. I already gave you Scripture examples of Paul and Peter warning the brethren to beware of deception in falling away by those in error that creep into the Church, and how they both said some will be taken in by their deceptions. By that I showed that Paul sought not ONLY to protect The Gospel, but to protect the brethren also.

I agree that if The Gospel is tainted it will not save. That's a no brainer. Paul gave that kind of warning too, in 2 Cor.11 and in Galatians. And his warnings were about the same idea of brethren becoming deceived by another gospel that is no gospel IF they allow it.

So why do you want to OMIT those warning Scriptures, just so you can keep a doctrine of men like OSAS?

Do you really think no believer can fall away from Christ by deceptions? If you believe that, then you need to read what Peter said in 2 Peter 2:1-2 again!



That means those who were saved were always going to be saved, and those grievous wolves never were going to be saved. If Paul spoke of them before his departure, surely God knew of their arise before it happened and was never going to save them.

I think you might want to read that Acts 20 Scripture by Paul again, especially the Acts 20:29-31 verses.
Acts 20:29-31
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)

The idea of false ones "not sparing the flock", and even some among theirselves arising to speak perverse things to draw away other brethren, IS about BELIEVERS that become apostate to Christ Jesus.

Bottomline, that shows a believer that was once 'bought' by Christ's Blood CAN... fall away from Him IF they so choose to do so! That's solid Scripture proof AGAINST the OSAS doctrines of men.

I concur with the idea that Jesus was praying about two different groups, but it extended only to His immediate disciples at the time. To continue though in that prayer we have...
“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

Jesus Himself requests that the group is made into one. Do you believe His request went unanswered? Is Christ divided?

Clearly you see division in Christ and that is your teaching. Some are elected by God whereas others must work for their salvation.

Obviously I've thrown out a 'pearl' you're not meant to understand, yet. The first group is about His chosen sent Apostles, can't throw away those specific terms which do NOT... apply to the second group. We are NOT all chosen sent Apostles. If you disagree with that point, then you've got real problems with interpreting God's Word as written, and you are putting their mantel upon youself which our Lord Jesus reserved... for His Apostles, whom also He promised would sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel in His future Kingdom in the world to come.

Now if you want to try... and equate yourself with His Apostles, then what specific throne with them did our Lord Jesus already... give to you???

I don't see your name written in God's Word as one of His chosen Apostles, do you?

It's apparent your attempt of applying the idea of 'division' isn't going to work on me. Our Lord Jesus is Who hands out the rewards for His future Kingdom, not me, and not you, and nor those OSAS men you quote.

Ephesians 1 speaks directly against your false teaching.


Again Ephesians 1 speaks directly against this false teaching.


Christ's chosen are saved. Evangelists are sent, as well as Apostles, as well as teachers and preachers.

Ephesians 1 is right in line with what I'm saying. There Paul speaks of those called before the foundation of the world. And by the time one gets to Ephesians 4, Paul begins admonishing the brethren WHAT TO DO and HOW to BE and ACT as befitting of the calling.

Now WHY would Paul do all that admonishing towards the Ephesians there if none of them could ever fall away from Christ?

See, I have not disagreed with anything... that Paul taught them and us.

I'm disagreeing with the doctrines of Calvinist OSAS that preaches no 'believer' on Jesus can fall away from Him. Apostle Paul would not have spent so much time in his Epistles commanding the brethren HOW to live and act otherwise, because there would be no need... if it were impossible for any believer to fall away from our Lord Jesus. You're just not facing what the Scripture actually teaches, like those examples I gave.


Again you teach we are dependent on ourselves for salvation, not God. Our "free will" is sovereign over our salvation, as opposed to God. Thereby glory be to ourselves for us being saved because we made the right choice! Phooey.

Your CHOICE and free will is... dependent upon your Salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He offers... us His Salvation, He doesn't FORCE it upon us.

The fact that we are to stay walking in Him after we've believed and not fall away, and repent of future sins we may commit, proves all the more that our Faith is dependent upon His saving Grace. His Grace is a free gift, not a tether.

Here's an easy question. What happens to those who choose to NOT believe on Jesus Christ The Saviour? Are those saved? Nope! You made a choice when you believed on our Lord Jesus Christ, just as all the brethren did.


Romans 8 is about believers and verse 32 affirms this.
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

The elect refers to all who are saved. This particular passage was written to extol the believers for the time of persecution that was impending, not to divide Christ as you teach.

Of course Romans 8:28-30 is about believers on Christ Jesus! Never said it wasn't. It's about His elect servants that CANNOT fall away because He ALREADY OWNS those. For many are called, but few are chosen, like He said. For a believer of the second group of John 17, they become JOINED with His chosen elect by NOT falling way, by overcoming through Christ, remaining Faithful all the way... to the end of this world.

Will ALL brethren remain faithful to Christ all the way to the end of this world? No. Christ and His Apostles already showed us that in His Word. I quoted some Scriptures about that, but apparently you 'choose' to deny what's written in those Scripture examples.

Try reading Matt.7 about those who will say, "Lord, lord...", and about the five foolish virgins of Matt.25, etc. Let God's Word open your eyes instead of those men on OSAS.

 

[justaname]

This paper seeks to explore the conversion or fulfillment of Saul of Tarsus. Once a persecutor of the early church, Saul was led to the belief of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord and Savior, through a direct vision of the Lord and a temporary blinding. Acts nine gives an account of the incident in detail:
3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,
6 but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”
7 The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
8 Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank. [SIZE=12pt][1]#_ftn1[/SIZE]

This blindness lasted until a reluctant Ananias, being sent by the Lord from a vision, laid his hands on Saul, and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Something like scales immediately fell from Saul’s eyes and his sight was restored. He got up and he was baptized then he ate some food and his strength was restored.
This particular conversion is interesting as Saul was referred to by the Lord as, “a chosen instrument of Mine” when the Lord was speaking to Ananias. (Acts 9:15) From this we can gather that this conversion was something that was sovereignly ordained by the Lord, not that Saul’s will had anything to decide in the matter. Spoken from his own words in Galatians 1:15-16, “But when it pleased God…” Paul recalls God’s sovereign activity in revealing His Son to him.[SIZE=12pt][2]#_ftn2[/SIZE] This directly aligns with the teachings of Jesus in John 6:44 and again in John 6:52-65. This also directly relates to election and predestination principles presented by Saul in his epistles.
Extrapolating further in the Galatians 1:15-16 pericope, from the statement, “Who separated me from my mother’s womb” Paul emphatically expresses God’s sovereign action in this fulfillment. God has initiated this separation or setting apart for God’s holy purpose, before Saul had any ability in choosing for himself, be it during the pregnancy or at conception Paul is referring to. Thus Paul emphasized that both his conversion and his commission owed nothing to man but were of God. [SIZE=12pt][3]#_ftn3[/SIZE]
Philippians 3:12 speaks at to how Paul was “laid hold of by Christ Jesus”. “Paul has not given himself to Christ; he has the conscience that it is Christ who laid hands upon him all at once without giving him the chance to break free".[SIZE=12pt][4]#_ftn4[/SIZE] In references like this insight may be gained in the theological view of soteriology held by Saul.
Johannes Munck has described the three accounts in Acts of Paul’s conversion as call/commissioning narratives modeled from the OT prophetic call/commissioning narratives. Galatians 1:15 associates with Isaiah 49:1-6 and Jeremiah 1:4-5. Munck furthers his assertions to state “the accounts in Acts go back to Paul, as they show a close connexion with Galatians.” Though the argument is not fully convincing, all three accounts in Acts do share call/commissioning features.[SIZE=12pt][5]#_ftn5[/SIZE]
1Timothy 1:16 explains that Paul is the pattern for all who would believe. This pattern spoken of can simply be God’s gracious mercy exemplified by saving the “chief of sinners”, although some see a furtherance of definition for the word “pattern”. “So what was Paul’s conversion a pattern of? A pattern of God’s sovereign-grace and mercy.”[SIZE=12pt][6]#_ftn6[/SIZE]
From 1 Timothy 1:13-14, faith is included along with love given to Saul in God’s grace. Dovetailing this passage with the Ephesians 2:8-9 passage we can see the “it” referring to the gift as faith along with salvation. Luke also emphasizes sovereign-grace in Acts 13:48, 16:14, 18:27. This faith is the generating force on the believer’s behalf in the salvation process. Being God is the provider of faith; believers have no room for boasting upon their decision of belief.
Finally Paul always gives thanks to God for His choice of believers, not thanks to the believers in their choice of God. From this perspective it can asserted that God be given credit for the salvation of the believer, thereby to God be the glory. If it were the believer should be commended for his decision, then the glory would belong to the believer.
In summery God’s choosing of Saul is a sovereign act. Paul was ambushed by the Lord on the road to Damascus, blinded, and instructed to go into the city to await further commands. Paul affirms in his epistles God gave him faith as well as grace. Being that Paul is the pattern of those for all who would believe, his being given faith necessitates that all must receive that faith from God in order to believe. In relation to Romans 3:11, it is rather plausible that God must initiate the act of faith in order for faith to take root in the life of the believer. It is true not all conversions have the same dramatic sequence of events as exemplified in Paul, but all conversions must have the same core pattern following Paul’s conversion. None of this is to say the believer does not make the choice to believe in Jesus as the Christ, for all believers do come to this realization from on their own accord. What is presented in scripture is man is culpable for his decisions and God is sovereign. “Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism) is the belief that God’s predetermination and meticulous providence is “compatible” with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 and 4:27-28).”[SIZE=12pt][7]#_ftn7[/SIZE]

Bibliography​

Campbell, D. K. (1985). Galatians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), . Vol. 2: The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, Ed.) (592). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

CPR Foundation. (2009). Compatibilism. Retrieved from http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Free-Will/Compatibilism/

Dupont, Jacques O.S.B., (1968). The conversion of Paul, and its influence on his understanding of salvation by faith. Retrieved from
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/paul_dupont.pdf

Hedrick, C. (1981). Paul's conversion/call: A comparative analysis of the three reports in acts. Retrieved from http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbl/1981_hedrick.pdf

Platanitis, J. (2007). Pauls conversion:essential principles pt I http://www.freewebs.com/peters-pearl/paulsconversionpti.htm

Platanitis, J. (2007). Pauls conversion: essential principles pt II http://www.freewebs.com/peters-pearl/paulsconversionptii.htm

New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Ac 9:3–9). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.



[SIZE=12pt][1][/SIZE] New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. 1995 (Ac 9:3–9). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.


[SIZE=12pt][2][/SIZE] Platanitis, J. (2007). Pauls conversion:essential principles pt I http://www.freewebs.com/peters-pearl/paulsconversionpti.htm


[SIZE=12pt][3][/SIZE] Campbell, D. K. (1985). Galatians. In J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck (Eds.), . Vol. 2: The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (J. F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, Ed.) (592). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.


[SIZE=12pt][4][/SIZE] Dupont, Jacques O.S.B., (1968). The conversion of Paul, and its influence on his understanding of salvation by faith. Retrieved from
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/paul_dupont.pdf


[SIZE=12pt][5][/SIZE] Hedrick, C. (1981). Paul's conversion/call: A comparative analysis of the three reports in acts. Retrieved from http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/jbl/1981_hedrick.pdf


[SIZE=12pt][6][/SIZE] Platanitis, J. (2007). Pauls conversion: essential principles pt II http://www.freewebs.com/peters-pearl/paulsconversionptii.htm


[SIZE=12pt][7][/SIZE] CPR Foundation. (2009). Compatibilism. Retrieved from http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Free-Will/Compatibilism/


Veteran,
The teaching of scripture is there is one body with many members, not as you falsely teach that there is the elect body and then the body of believers. Nothing of what you posted speaks against the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

 

[veteran]

Veteran,
The teaching of scripture is there is one body with many members, not as you falsely teach that there is the elect body and then the body of believers. Nothing of what you posted speaks against the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

You don't have a clue as to what I said because your 'eyes' have been closed, either by your own choice, or by God's Own hand. So there's no need for me to repeat myself again with giving the actual Bible Scripture, Scripture proof which you will just continue to refuse just so you can keep your false doctrines of men. So go to, keep giving to that church you're going to and its preachers for barley and wheat.

 

[jiggyfly]

GOD knows when, or if, someone will return. I don't.

Do you believe that God just gives up at some point?

 

[veteran]

Veteran,
The teaching of scripture is there is one body with many members, not as you falsely teach that there is the elect body and then the body of believers. Nothing of what you posted speaks against the perseverance of the saints doctrine.

If what you say is true, then NO believer on Christ Jesus should EVER need listen to any teacher of God's Word, or preacher of The Gospel, for all... would have the exact same understanding and administration duty by The Holy Spirit! We would ALL then be Apostles like Christ's chosen Apostles which He chose, and we would inherit THEIR thrones over Israel even!!!

How well... we know that is not... the case!

 

[justaname]

You don't have a clue as to what I said because your 'eyes' have been closed, either by your own choice, or by God's Own hand. So there's no need for me to repeat myself again with giving the actual Bible Scripture, Scripture proof which you will just continue to refuse just so you can keep your false doctrines of men. So go to, keep giving to that church you're going to and its preachers for barley and wheat.

Actually I know exactly what you said and it is false. You have no scripture to support your view and that is why you will not post it.

If what you say is true, then NO believer on Christ Jesus should EVER need listen to any teacher of God's Word, or preacher of The Gospel, for all... would have the exact same understanding and administration duty by The Holy Spirit! We would ALL then be Apostles like Christ's chosen Apostles which He chose, and we would inherit THEIR thrones over Israel even!!!

How well... we know that is not... the case!

Well for this to be true we would all have to be instantly mature upon belief and we know that is not the case, nor is it what I am professing.

Apostle simply means sent one or one sent forth, usually with a specific message or mission. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. Apostle is a generic term in the greek and has been used to refer to envoys of ships and other things of the like. Even Jesus the Christ is called an apostle... Hebrews 3:1

That aside my teaching is true, God's elect is every member of the church, not just a select few.

Romans 8:28-31 is not about a specific group in the church, it is about the entire church. Ephesians 1 is not about a select group within the church, it is written to the Ephesians and describes God's sovereign election for all believers.

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

God elects or chooses, predestines, and glorifies all His believers. Christ is all, and in all. Only those that are Christ's are saved, are being saved, and will be saved; and He knows all His sheep by name!

Romans 9:14-17
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Perseverance of the Saints
What God begins, he finishes Psa 138:8; Ecc 3:14; Isa 46:4; Jer 32:40; Rom 11:29; Phi 1:6; 2Tim 4:18 Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost John 6:39-40; John 10:27-29; Rom 8:28-31; Rom 8:35-39; Heb 7:25; Heb 10:14 God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith 1Cor 6:9-10; Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5; Heb 3:14; Heb 6:4-6; Heb 10:26-27; Heb 12:14; Rev 21:7-8; Rev 22:14-15 However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere John 15:16; 1Cor 1:30-31; 1Cor 6:11; 1Cor 12:3; 1Cor 15:10; Gal 3:1-6; Eph 2:10; Phi 2:12-13; 1The 5:23-24; Heb 13:20-21; 1John 2:29; Jud 1:24-25. (1)

(1) Taken from http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/gracelist.html

 

[veteran]

Actually I know exactly what you said and it is false. You have no scripture to support your view and that is why you will not post it.

Well for this to be true we would all have to be instantly mature upon belief and we know that is not the case, nor is it what I am professing.

Apostle simply means sent one or one sent forth, usually with a specific message or mission. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles. Apostle is a generic term in the greek and has been used to refer to envoys of ships and other things of the like. Even Jesus the Christ is called an apostle... Hebrews 3:1

Your... usage of the word Apostle is from a man-made tradition, and not from God's Word. The whole Church are not... all apostles per God's Word. He did NOT... send every believer as His Apostle.

But we are living in the day and age of the jealousy of the wanna-be's, those who think they can just assume... whatever role they so choose and that no one will question it! God will, and in time you will see why.

 

[justaname]

Your... usage of the word Apostle is from a man-made tradition, and not from God's Word. The whole Church are not... all apostles per God's Word. He did NOT... send every believer as His Apostle.

But we are living in the day and age of the jealousy of the wanna-be's, those who think they can just assume... whatever role they so choose and that no one will question it! God will, and in time you will see why.

This use of the word "apostle" is the same as used by biblical authors known as the common vernacular, as all of the NT is written in.

We also have...

The term “apostle” also is used in a second sense—what we might call an official sense. That is, “apostle” can refer to individuals who were officially and divinely selected to serve as Jesus’ original representatives—“ambassadors” (2 Corinthians 5:20). Jesus handpicked the original twelve apostles (Matthew 10:1-5; Mark 3:13-19; Luke 6:12-16; 9:1-2). Of these original twelve, Judas betrayed the Lord as predicted by the Old Testament (Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-19; 18:1-5). Instead of repenting, he cinched his apostasy by committing suicide (Matthew 27:3-5; John 17:12). Consequently, a successor to Judas was selected by divine decree (Acts 1:16-26).
Only one other apostle in the official sense is alluded to in the New Testament—Paul. His appointment to apostleship was unique and unparalleled in that he was chosen for a specific first century task (Acts 9:15; 22:14-15; 26:16-18; 1 Corinthians 15:8-9; Galatians 1:11-12,15-16). Christ selected him to introduce the message of Christianity to the Gentile world (Romans 11:13; 15:16; Galatians 2:8; Ephesians 3:8). Paul was careful to document the fact that his apostleship was by divine appointment (e.g., Romans 1:5; 1 Corinthians 1:1; Galatians 1:1,16).
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1226%C2
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1226

 

[horsecamp]

The doctrine of once saved always saved is but again another attempt by Calvin to make the bible
more reasonable .

if Calvin was with the Israelites he would have had a big problem with God leading Israel to the sea .to escape pharaoh. it would not have seemed reasonable to Calvin and Calvin wants Gods word to be reasonable even if he has to step in and make it so,,

but
.

Gods ways are not our ways .. he wants us to believe all the bible passages even those that may seem to be contradictory
to other passages . yet when the time is right God always parts the sea. and says you of all people who have both the new and old testaments should have believed me.. you should have held your reason captive to my word instead of using your reason in judgement over it,,.

the bible talks about people who were saved and how imposable it is for them to be converted again to Christ

Jesus also warns the Christian WHO HAS BECOME luke warm about falling from saving faith Jesus is not deceptive he speaks honestly to us..

Jesus also speaks about nothing can pull us out of his Fathers saving hand. HE WANTS THOSE WHO NEED ASSURANCE OF THAT,, TO BELIEVE THAT TO.

perhaps one reason may be that
mans heart during their life time is so contrary some times so much in love with God and at other times so out of love with God


that God gave these contrary doctrines to keep us walking straight in to his pierced hands so he tells the truth when he warns us about that we can falli away and he tells us truth when he assures us we can never fall away.

we need both assurances and warnings at different times during our lives.

 

[veteran]

Calvinism and OSAS doctrine of men came out of misinterpretation of Scripture examples like Romans 8 thru 11, Ephesians 2, etc., by Paul about the subject of predestination.

There has always existed a group of God's elect servants on this earth, even in Old Testament times, and they were directly in God's service even back then with His hand directly upon them to do His Will, while the rest of Israel fell away and were rebellious by their own free will. It is no different for today in Christ's Church.

Those which are not just 'called' only, but also 'chosen' sent ones, CANNOT and WILL NOT be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ events for our near future (Matt.24:22-26). Just as God intervened directly with His chosen elect back in OT history, likewise it is that way today too.

But the rest of us believers MUST be tried using our 'own' free-will, and overcome through Christ Jesus. The difference is we can fall away to deception if we allow it when tried, but His elect chosen cannot fall away when they are tried.

 

[ScottAU]

Calvinism and OSAS doctrine of men came out of misinterpretation of Scripture examples like Romans 8 thru 11, Ephesians 2, etc., by Paul about the subject of predestination.

There has always existed a group of God's elect servants on this earth, even in Old Testament times, and they were directly in God's service even back then with His hand directly upon them to do His Will, while the rest of Israel fell away and were rebellious by their own free will. It is no different for today in Christ's Church.

Those which are not just 'called' only, but also 'chosen' sent ones, CANNOT and WILL NOT be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ events for our near future (Matt.24:22-26). Just as God intervened directly with His chosen elect back in OT history, likewise it is that way today too.

But the rest of us believers MUST be tried using our 'own' free-will, and overcome through Christ Jesus. The difference is we can fall away to deception if we allow it when tried, but His elect chosen cannot fall away when they are tried.

The Origins of OSAS can be traced back to Augustinian fatalism in the Fourth Century.

John Calvin was an avid subscriber many of the premises of Augustine.

Basically Augustine viewed the sin of Adam as effecting the constitution of his descendents in such a way that necessitates rebellion and sin. Thus all men were born in a state of rebellion whereby sin was the natural outcome. Augustine's view of predestination was that God elected specific individuals, by divine fiat, from the foundation of the world whom He would save. God then intervenes in the natural state of things (man's rebellion) and supernaturally changes the elect so that they can come to believe.

Thus if God is going to effect such a change in those He has chosen there is nothing that can do to stop it. Hence those God saves are going to be saved. Thus once God chooses someone to be saved and begins to effect that change then that person is going to be saved no matter what. Thus we have the root of Perseverance of the Saints (P in TULIP) which today is commonly known as OSAS.

Augustine viewed that any who denied this monergistic approach were in effect in denial of the grace of God.

Thus when one is reading theologians like Martin Luther, John Calvin and many others it is important to understand the historical roots of their doctrinal system.

The early church prior to Augustine upheld the free agency of man and taught a conditional election rooted in the response of men towards the call of God. Thus they did not view saving grace as something given to only those who would believe. Rather they viewed saving grace as being universal and those who would believe are those who did not suppress the light given.

 

[veteran]

The Origins of OSAS can be traced back to Augustinian fatalism in the Fourth Century.

John Calvin was an avid subscriber many of the premises of Augustine.

Basically Augustine viewed the sin of Adam as effecting the constitution of his descendents in such a way that necessitates rebellion and sin. Thus all men were born in a state of rebellion whereby sin was the natural outcome. Augustine's view of predestination was that God elected specific individuals, by divine fiat, from the foundation of the world whom He would save. God then intervenes in the natural state of things (man's rebellion) and supernaturally changes the elect so that they can come to believe.

Thus if God is going to effect such a change in those He has chosen there is nothing that can do to stop it. Hence those God saves are going to be saved. Thus once God chooses someone to be saved and begins to effect that change then that person is going to be saved no matter what. Thus we have the root of Perseverance of the Saints (P in TULIP) which today is commonly known as OSAS.

Augustine viewed that any who denied this monergistic approach were in effect in denial of the grace of God.

Thus when one is reading theologians like Martin Luther, John Calvin and many others it is important to understand the historical roots of their doctrinal system.

The early church prior to Augustine upheld the free agency of man and taught a conditional election rooted in the response of men towards the call of God. Thus they did not view saving grace as something given to only those who would believe. Rather they viewed saving grace as being universal and those who would believe are those who did not suppress the light given.

It is important to understand, and heed... what The Scriptures teach, and not what men's doctrines teach. That way, no matter who... back in history one studies about, their ideas will always be weighed and measured according to The Word of God, and not what middlemen historicists say.

Augustine, Calvin, et al, all... got their private predestination concepts loosely based from written Scripture. So study of their personal histories is not what's important. Proper understanding within God's Word on the matter is what is important.

So I would be interested in hearing what 'you' yourself actually believe Apostle Paul was saying about the matter, and not Augustine, et al.

 

[ScottAU]

It is important to understand, and heed... what The Scriptures teach, and not what men's doctrines teach. That way, no matter who... back in history one studies about, their ideas will always be weighed and measured according to The Word of God, and not what middlemen historicists say.

Augustine, Calvin, et al, all... got their private predestination concepts loosely based from written Scripture. So study of their personal histories is not what's important. Proper understanding within God's Word on the matter is what is important.

So I would be interested in hearing what 'you' yourself actually believe Apostle Paul was saying about the matter, and not Augustine, et al.

As individuals we are fully responsible for our own conduct.

God's grace is freely available to all men but all men have to make the personal choice as to whether they will receive it or reject it.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

Both vice and virtue are both rooted in the exercise of free moral agency, ie. choice. God is calling all men to virtue, the road of which is simply abiding in the revealed will of God via the Spirit.

Paul's teachings are in full agreement with the teachings of Jesus. Those who patiently continue in doing good (via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ) will receive eternal life. Those who are disobedient and choose to walk according to their base passions and thus suppress the knowledge of the truth will ultimately be condemned.

Thus the way of life is to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Jesus.

 

[veteran]

As individuals we are fully responsible for our own conduct.

God's grace is freely available to all men but all men have to make the personal choice as to whether they will receive it or reject it.

God is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance.

Both vice and virtue are both rooted in the exercise of free moral agency, ie. choice. God is calling all men to virtue, the road of which is simply abiding in the revealed will of God via the Spirit.

Paul's teachings are in full agreement with the teachings of Jesus. Those who patiently continue in doing good (via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ) will receive eternal life. Those who are disobedient and choose to walk according to their base passions and thus suppress the knowledge of the truth will ultimately be condemned.

Thus the way of life is to deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow Jesus.

OK, then show me in Scripture just where... Apostle Paul made his own 'free will' choice to accept Jesus Christ...WITHOUT Christ's direct intervention.

Apostle Paul had a letter of authority from the unbelieving Jews to go hunt down Christians when he was on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Paul (Saul) was definitely working AGAINST Jesus Christ and His Church at that very point.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

the bible talks about people who were saved and how imposable it is for them to be converted again to Christ

Read it again carefully (Hebrews 6)

I will paraphrase in my own words ...... Hebrews 6 is written to religious orthodox , law abiding Jews ..... who have now accepted Christ as Savior (by faith) ...... and now some want to go back to being religious Jews as they were before .

The author of Hebrews is saying that is impossible .... because they would only end up coming back to Christ all over again ... and that is impossible because they already have Christ ..... ie: you cannot abandon Christ and then re-crucify Him over again .... it is impossible.

A Messianic Jew reads the book of Hebrews with complete understanding ..... but it is often a mind-bender for us non-Jews

The Western Gentile Christian should not apply the Book of Hebrews to themselves ..... we have the gospel to the gentiles for that

 

[veteran]

Read it again carefully (Hebrews 6)

I will paraphrase in my own words ...... Hebrews 6 is written to religious orthodox , law abiding Jews ..... who have now accepted Christ as Savior (by faith) ...... and now some want to go back to being religious Jews as they were before .

The author of Hebrews is saying that is impossible .... because they would only end up coming back to Christ all over again ... and that is impossible because they already have Christ ..... ie: you cannot abandon Christ and then re-crucify Him over again .... it is impossible.

A Messianic Jew reads the book of Hebrews with complete understanding ..... but it is often a mind-bender for us non-Jews

The Western Gentile Christian should not apply the Book of Hebrews to themselves ..... we have the gospel to the gentiles for that

You've been wrongly taught that the Book of Hebrews is ONLY for Israelites by birth. Not so Arnie.

The Heb.6 Message applies just as well to Gentile Christians as it does to believing Israelites.

Hebrews is Apostle Luke's writing style, but it's Apostle Paul's form of speaking, meaning Paul probably dictated it to Luke, and Luke wrote it down.


Heb 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
(KJV)

You have to read the bold phrases together. And the result is the 8th verse. That is what the blasphemy against The Holy Spirit is about.

One who has tasted of the heavenly gift and was a partaker of The Holy Spirit, and then falls away, there is no renewing, for it would be like crucifying Christ all over again.

 

[ScottAU]

OK, then show me in Scripture just where... Apostle Paul made his own 'free will' choice to accept Jesus Christ...WITHOUT Christ's direct intervention.

Apostle Paul had a letter of authority from the unbelieving Jews to go hunt down Christians when he was on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). Paul (Saul) was definitely working AGAINST Jesus Christ and His Church at that very point.

That is a loaded question.

Paul still had a choice as to whether he would respond favourably to God's "direct intervention."

Jesus directly intervened in the lives of the Pharisees performing supernatural works and yet they hardened their hearts to the truth.


Like I said earlier the denial of free will has its origin within pagan philosophy and such teachings as they apply to predestination were not accepted into church orthodoxy until Augustine in the Fourth Century.

The apostles, their students, and the students of their students all upheld the free agency of men. Choice mattered.



If Satan can convince people that they do not have a choice whereby their destinies are rooted in fatalism then people are deceived into passively waiting on God to do everything. This is one of the real dangers of Augustinian theology and its modern manifestation.

God has already done much and is still constantly working within people but this grace is ineffectual lest an individual freely chooses to cooperate with God.



Today we have a situation where instead of theologians preaching "repent and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance" (clearly taught in Acts) we have "confess and trust in God and He will do a work in you." While the latter may sound appealing and biblical in the sense that it upholds God as the prime energy source it is really a subtle deception purposed to induce passivity.

Passive faith does not strive nor is it single eyed. There are many such people who "rest" in the notion of being saved due to "trusting in a provision" apart from them having to do anything.

Jesus said that it is the DOERS of the will of the Father who will enter the kingdom and not the hearers only. When Jesus taught that we are to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him it is not implicated in any manner whatsoever that God is going to MAKE US do such things. Sure one can isolate a and proof text select passages to support such a notion but in doing so they ignore the whole counsel of God in order to tickle their own ears.

God is calling all men everywhere to repent and turn to Him wholeheartedly. God will empower those who receive Him in such a manner. Those who remain double-minded ought not think they will receive anything from God.