The Doctrine of OSAS

[Dodo_David]

It saddens me to see all of the character attacks that have been posted in this thread. None of it is necessary, and all it does is stir up anger.

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." - Proverbs 15:1

Regarding the question of salvation's durability (is it permanent or can it be lost), I suggest that we won't know for certain while we remain on this side of eternity. Maybe some things are beyond our comprehension while we are still creatures of flesh.

Anyway, saying "I do not know" is definitely better than making negative comments about each other.

 

[AndyBern]

I think it is possible to be for or against OSAS, and still discuss the subject the subject with gentleness and respect for those holding the opposite view. But this subject and some others almost always turn into very ungodly verbal battles. It is much better to let the subject drop before the debate becomes a stumbling block leading to sinful attitudes.

 

[veteran]

What saddens me is how so many brethren can be so blind as to what's going on with this vain OSAS doctrine. It's source is not that difficult to fathom, because orthodox Judaism has long had the aim to destroy Christianity, afterall, they had Christ crucified and have maytred many saints through their history. The OSAS doctrine is a plant of their's designed to destroy 'within' Christ's Church. It's designed to taint the Church with wickedness going unchecked while thinking once you're baptized it don't matter what you do afterwards. This very same attitude about sin reared its ugly head among the early Gentile believers in Apostle Paul's day, and Paul gave many rebukes about it in his Epistles. The Church at Thyatira in Rev.2 was an example about it. Thus defending today's OSAS concept is like defending evil.

 

[Dodo_David]

What saddens me is how so many brethren can be so blind as to what's going on with this vain OSAS doctrine. It's source is not that difficult to fathom, because orthodox Judaism has long had the aim to destroy Christianity, afterall, they had Christ crucified and have maytred many saints through their history. The OSAS doctrine is a plant of their's designed to destroy 'within' Christ's Church. It's designed to taint the Church with wickedness going unchecked while thinking once you're baptized it don't matter what you do afterwards. This very same attitude about sin reared its ugly head among the early Gentile believers in Apostle Paul's day, and Paul gave many rebukes about it in his Epistles. The Church at Thyatira in Rev.2 was an example about it. Thus defending today's OSAS concept is like defending evil.

It appears to me that a straw-man argument is being made, one based on the assumption that born-again people will want to continue with deliberate sins. That is an assumption that defenders of OSAS argue against.

Also, it is a wild and unproven claim that the OSAS doctrine is a "plant" of orthodox Judaism.

 

[veteran]

It appears to me that a straw-man argument is being made, one based on the assumption that born-again people will want to continue with deliberate sins. That is an assumption that defenders of OSAS argue against.

Also, it is a wild and unproven claim that the OSAS doctrine is a "plant" of orthodox Judaism.

Using your own type speech, then I would say, it appears to me that a false claim to a straw-man argument is what you're trying to make, since in many large cities in America one can discover so-called Christian Churches which SUPPORT the false idea that one can still practice the 'gay' lifestyle while believing on Christ and still be in good standing with Him.

As for Judaism, it is vehemently... Anti-Christian. It was in the Apostle's days, and still is today. And the worst ones within it, like the Pharisees of old, are... the "synagogue of Satan" which Jesus warned HIS servants about...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

 

[Dodo_David]

Using your own type speech, then I would say, it appears to me that a false claim to a straw-man argument is what you're trying to make, since in many large cities in America one can discover so-called Christian Churches which SUPPORT the false idea that one can still practice the 'gay' lifestyle while believing on Christ and still be in good standing with Him.

As for Judaism, it is vehemently... Anti-Christian. It was in the Apostle's days, and still is today. And the worst ones within it, like the Pharisees of old, are... the "synagogue of Satan" which Jesus warned HIS servants about...

Rev 3:9
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
(KJV)

veteran, you claim that orthodox Judaism planted the OSAS doctrine in Christian churches, but you give no evidence whatsoever that the OSAS doctrine came from orthodox Judaism. Also, you changed the subject to that of homosexuality when there was no cause for doing so.

Have you bothered to talk to pastors who support the OSAS doctrine? If you were to do that, then they would show you where in the Bible they find support for the OSAS doctrine. If there is a biblical defense of OSAS, then the doctrine isn't evil as you claim.

If you want to reject the OSAS doctrine, then so be it. However, you don't have to be unnecessarily abrasive in your stated objection to the doctrine.

 

[HammerStone]

Veteran, I have to agree with David's assertion above.

The churches that teach the Calvinist or Reformed perspectives typically aren't (or at least aren't uniformly) the obsessed with Israel type. I do not currently define myself as a Calvinist nor Reformed, but I have studied up on the beliefs and a number of anti-OSAS arguments are charicatures.

 

[veteran]

veteran, you claim that orthodox Judaism planted the OSAS doctrine in Christian churches, but you give no evidence whatsoever that the OSAS doctrine came from orthodox Judaism. Also, you changed the subject to that of homosexuality when there was no cause for doing so.

Have you bothered to talk to pastors who support the OSAS doctrine? If you were to do that, then they would show you where in the Bible they find support for the OSAS doctrine. If there is a biblical defense of OSAS, then the doctrine isn't evil as you claim.

If you want to reject the OSAS doctrine, then so be it. However, you don't have to be unnecessarily abrasive in your stated objection to the doctrine.

Gave all the evidence one should need, ANY doctrine that does not align with God's Word is FROM the devil. It's easy to grasp that doctrine does not align with God's Word, because there is no such NT doctrine that once we believe on Christ Jesus that we are no longer subject to temptation and sin, and don't need to repent to Him and ask forgiveness when we fall short.

What is it you don't understand about that "synagogue of Satan" definition Christ Jesus gave there?

And I am not being abrasive, I'm instead amazed at those who fail to understand this, while merely stating Biblical fact about such doctrines as being a major cause of many brethren today not staying in Christ Jesus, even to the point with some thinking it's impossible for them to commit sin anymore. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Apostle John warned us about it too (1 John 1).

Veteran, I have to agree with David's assertion above.

The churches that teach the Calvinist or Reformed perspectives typically aren't (or at least aren't uniformly) the obsessed with Israel type. I do not currently define myself as a Calvinist nor Reformed, but I have studied up on the beliefs and a number of anti-OSAS arguments are charicatures.

I'm not into all the seminary theology stuff. My measure is God's Word, which is what any doctrine must align with. There are plenty of Bible warnings against falling away from Christ to something else, so I don't think I have need to justify what I'm saying about such doctrines of men.

 

[justaname]

Gave all the evidence one should need, ANY doctrine that does not align with God's Word is FROM the devil. It's easy to grasp that doctrine does not align with God's Word, because there is no such NT doctrine that once we believe on Christ Jesus that we are no longer subject to temptation and sin, and don't need to repent to Him and ask forgiveness when we fall short.

What is it you don't understand about that "synagogue of Satan" definition Christ Jesus gave there?

And I am not being abrasive, I'm instead amazed at those who fail to understand this, while merely stating Biblical fact about such doctrines as being a major cause of many brethren today not staying in Christ Jesus, even to the point with some thinking it's impossible for them to commit sin anymore. This doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out. Apostle John warned us about it too (1 John 1).


I'm not into all the seminary theology stuff. My measure is God's Word, which is what any doctrine must align with. There are plenty of Bible warnings against falling away from Christ to something else, so I don't think I have need to justify what I'm saying about such doctrines of men.

You have an absolutely obvious misconception of the doctrine, apparent from your first paragraph. I have posted this earlier, yet for your sake I will post it again.

Perseverance of the Saints
by Nathan Pitchford

What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will fulfill his purpose for me; your steadfast love, O LORD, endures forever. Do not forsake the work of your hands.
Ecc 3:14 I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.
Isa 46:4 even to your old age I am he, and to gray hairs I will carry you. I have made, and I will bear; I will carry and will save.
Jer 32:40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Phi 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
2Ti 4:18 The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safety into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will
inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Heb 3:14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Rev 21:7-8 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
1Co 1:30-31 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain - if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith - just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

 

[veteran]

You have an absolutely obvious misconception of the doctrine, apparent from your first paragraph. I have posted this earlier, yet for your sake I will post it again.

You're just not facing reality, nor the Scripture warnings those like Apostle Paul and Peter wrote to the brethren about some among Christ's Body that pervert The Gospel and cause some sheep to fall away to them instead.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(KJV)

2 Tim 2:17-20
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
(KJV)

Right there, Apostle Paul showed Timothy how just as there are vessels of honor, there are also vessels of dishonor, using that as an example of those who make up Christ's Church in this world.

2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

That idea, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..." means they did endure at the first, but then fell away to something else. How? They after their own lusts heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and thus turn away from the Truth unto fables instead.

2 Pet 2:1-2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(KJV)

Those who bring in "damnable heresies" into Christ's Body, at the first do not deny The Lord That bought them, but then turn away from Him to their swift destruction.

Jude 1:3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)



Those Scripture examples are completely against... the OSAS doctrine of men, simply because the OSAS doctrine teaches that once one has come to Christ Jesus and believed on Him, and been baptized, then nothing they ever do afterwards can make them lose their Salvation through Jesus. Every one of these above Scripture examples are about those among Christ's Body, His Church.

The Jude 1 Scripture above is especially important, because it reveals the subject of the "crept in unawares" within Christ's Body, i.e., the wolves in sheep's clothing, those who draw away the weak sheep away from Christ. Apostle Paul had to contend with those wolves many times in the Churches he was given to oversee, just as that 2 Tim.2:17-20 Scripture emphatically... shows (see also Gal.2:4; Acts 15:24; 2 Cor.11:12-15; Gal.5:7-12).

 

[Dodo_David]

You're just not facing reality, nor the Scripture warnings those like Apostle Paul and Peter wrote to the brethren about some among Christ's Body that pervert The Gospel and cause some sheep to fall away to them instead.

Veteran, now you are resorting to the use of ad hominem by accusing people who disagree with you of perverting the Gospel.

Plus, you are making a straw-man argument by mischaracterizing the OSAS doctrine, when you say the following:

... there is no such NT doctrine that once we believe on Christ Jesus that we are no longer subject to temptation and sin, and don't need to repent to Him and ask forgiveness when we fall short.

The OSAS doctrine does not deny that Christians are "subject to temptation and sin", does not deny that Christians "need to repent to Him and ask forgiveness when we fall short."

Pastors who support the OSAS doctrine will show you the Bible verses that support the doctrine.

You can disagree with the OSAS doctrine without being unnecessarily abrasive.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, now you are resorting to the use of ad hominem by accusing people who disagree with you of perverting the Gospel.

Plus, you are making a straw-man argument by mischaracterizing the OSAS doctrine, when you say the following:


The OSAS doctrine does not deny that Christians are "subject to temptation and sin", does not deny that Christians "need to repent to Him and ask forgiveness when we fall short."

Pastors who support the OSAS doctrine will show you the Bible verses that support the doctrine.

You can disagree with the OSAS doctrine without being unnecessarily abrasive.

Your rebuttal doesn't even come close to addressing the subject of those Scriptures I've shown.

Moreover, you're not telling the truth about the preachers who push the OSAS lie. They emphatically DO... teach the believer that they NO LONGER CAN SIN.

Granted there may be some preachers that interpret the OSAS idea differently, agreeing that we can still sin and need to repent and ask Christ forgiveness of sins we commit after having come to Him. But those might want to update how the OSAS doctrine is being taught in today's times, like I've said.

You will find many pro-OSAS here on this very forum that support the idea to mean they can no longer have sin, or be held accountable for sin after becoming a believer. Do your research before you question my integrity about this matter.

 

[Dodo_David]

Your rebuttal doesn't even come close to addressing the subject of those Scriptures I've shown.

Moreover, you're not telling the truth about the preachers who push the OSAS lie. They emphatically DO... teach the believer that they NO LONGER CAN SIN.

Granted there may be some preachers that interpret the OSAS idea differently, agreeing that we can still sin and need to repent and ask Christ forgiveness of sins we commit after having come to Him. But those might want to update how the OSAS doctrine is being taught in today's times, like I've said.

You will find many pro-OSAS here on this very forum that support the idea to mean they can no longer have sin, or be held accountable for sin after becoming a believer. Do your research before you question my integrity about this matter.

Veteran,

As I said before, pastors who support the OSAS doctrine base their support on things that the Bible says. Now, does the Bible lie?

Also, you are getting two different ideas mixed up. The OSAS doctrine says nothing about a Christian no longer sinning. The latter is a separate belief, one that I reject.

In case you haven't noticed, I have not said whether I support the OSAS doctrine. I merely say that the pastors who support it have provided Scriptural support for what they believe.

The fact that you personally don't believe it doesn't necessarily make OSAS a lie.

Even if I did not accept OSAS as being accurate, I would still consider your lack of tact and diplomacy appalling. Thus far, your choice of words is anything but edifying. Instead, the message that you are sending is this one: "What I believe must be correct because I am the one who believes it."

 

[justaname]

You're just not facing reality, nor the Scripture warnings those like Apostle Paul and Peter wrote to the brethren about some among Christ's Body that pervert The Gospel and cause some sheep to fall away to them instead.

Acts 20:27-31
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)

1 Tim 1:18-20
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.
(KJV)

2 Tim 2:17-20
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
(KJV)

Right there, Apostle Paul showed Timothy how just as there are vessels of honor, there are also vessels of dishonor, using that as an example of those who make up Christ's Church in this world.

2 Tim 4:2-4
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
(KJV)

That idea, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine..." means they did endure at the first, but then fell away to something else. How? They after their own lusts heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears, and thus turn away from the Truth unto fables instead.

2 Pet 2:1-2
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord That bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
(KJV)

Those who bring in "damnable heresies" into Christ's Body, at the first do not deny The Lord That bought them, but then turn away from Him to their swift destruction.

Jude 1:3-4
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)



Those Scripture examples are completely against... the OSAS doctrine of men, simply because the OSAS doctrine teaches that once one has come to Christ Jesus and believed on Him, and been baptized, then nothing they ever do afterwards can make them lose their Salvation through Jesus. Every one of these above Scripture examples are about those among Christ's Body, His Church.

The Jude 1 Scripture above is especially important, because it reveals the subject of the "crept in unawares" within Christ's Body, i.e., the wolves in sheep's clothing, those who draw away the weak sheep away from Christ. Apostle Paul had to contend with those wolves many times in the Churches he was given to oversee, just as that 2 Tim.2:17-20 Scripture emphatically... shows (see also Gal.2:4; Acts 15:24; 2 Cor.11:12-15; Gal.5:7-12).

This is interesting, the arguments used here actually speak to the truth of the doctrine.

Lets look to the 2 Timothy 2:17-20, the part you did not highlight:
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Paul breaks his explanation abruptly with "nevertheless." This word means regardless of what was stated previous, this is explicit! The foundation of God is true, and this is the seal or assurance of the foundation, the Lord knows those who are His. This gives great confidence to the reader of the epistle!

Omniscience...
If it is the Lord knows who are His, and He knows the end from the beginning, it can be concluded that He knows exactly who is going to be saved before they are even born. These are the only ones that will be saved. Salvation is not given then taken away, because those you would argue "had it then lost it" were truly never going to be saved in the end anyways.

Moving on to the Jude passage...
4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

None of these were ever going to be saved, because their fate was marked out for condemnation, just because they might rub elbows with God's elect, does not make them elect for salvation themselves.

Your Quote:
"The Jude 1 Scripture above is especially important, because it reveals the subject of the "crept in unawares" within Christ's Body, i.e., the wolves in sheep's clothing, those who draw away the weak sheep away from Christ. Apostle Paul had to contend with those wolves many times in the Churches he was given to oversee, just as that 2 Tim.2:17-20 Scripture emphatically... shows (see also Gal.2:4; Acts 15:24; 2 Cor.11:12-15; Gal.5:7-12)."

So the weak sheep fall? What does God's writ reveal?

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.

This speaks differently than your man made doctrine. What else does God's word say about weakness?

2 Corinthians 12:9
9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.


Another quote of yours:
"Right there, Apostle Paul showed Timothy how just as there are vessels of honor, there are also vessels of dishonor, using that as an example of those who make up Christ's Church in this world. "

What does scripture teach about Christ's church?
Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

According to you the church is made up with honorable and dishonorable members. Scripture teaches the church is holy and blameless, without spot or wrinkle. This doctrine of yours in ecclesiology seems to be man made and not in accordance with scripture.

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

As I said before, pastors who support the OSAS doctrine base their support on things that the Bible says. Now, does the Bible lie?

Also, you are getting two different ideas mixed up. The OSAS doctrine says nothing about a Christian no longer sinning. The latter is a separate belief, one that I reject.

Then you're not on board with how the OSAS doctrine is being preached today, because the believer no longer having sin is one of the most vile things going around with that doctrine today. It includes that no matter what the believer does after having come to Christ, they can in no way lose their Salvaiton.

This is interesting, the arguments used here actually speak to the truth of the doctrine.

Lets look to the 2 Timothy 2:17-20, the part you did not highlight:
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thanks for revealing yourself there, because you've taken that sole verse OUT of the rest of the Scripture that goes with it, and instead made up a LIE that completely... disregards the below verses it is given with...


2 Tim 2:17-20
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
(KJV)

Furthermore, Paul would not have given that command for those to "depart from iniquity" in that 19th verse if they could not fall to iniquity in the first place!

 

[Dodo_David]

Then you're not on board with how the OSAS doctrine is being preached today . . .

Have you been in every congregation in which OSAS is defended? Have you listened to every pastor who provides Scriptural support for OSAS?

Again, I did not say that I personally support OSAS. However, I have heard plenty of pastors defend OSAS, and none of them claim that Christians no longer sin.

 

[veteran]

Have you been in every congregation in which OSAS is defended? Have you listened to every pastor who provides Scriptural support for OSAS?

Again, I did not say that I personally support OSAS. However, I have heard plenty of pastors defend OSAS, and none of them claim that Christians no longer sin.

Like I said, maybe you ought to research here just what folks here have... said about that doctrine that started these debates, and that before you start pointing the finger. There's been several other threads pushing the idea of OSAS meaning the believer no longer sins and especially the false concept that the believer no longer needs to repent and ask forgiveness of Christ after having believed on Him. That is the doctrine of devils that's been pushed here on this forum that I am against, and God's Word is against also.

I must agree completely with Angelina, this OSAS doctrine that some churches today push has led many believers astray into doing what is not expiedent that cause them to fall away. Apostle Paul told us to work out our Salvation which means to be diligent in The Faith and keep to Christ's commandments and Word and do works befitting of His Name. Instead, the OSAS doctrine has begat a bunch that think they can live their lives however they want and think it doesn't matter because they're told they are still saved. This was another reason why I brought up the Ezekiel 13 Scripture post of what God says about pastors that divine out of their own hearts, making the righteous sad while promoting the wicked who should die.

 

[justaname]

Then you're not on board with how the OSAS doctrine is being preached today, because the believer no longer having sin is one of the most vile things going around with that doctrine today. It includes that no matter what the believer does after having come to Christ, they can in no way lose their Salvaiton.


Thanks for revealing yourself there, because you've taken that sole verse OUT of the rest of the Scripture that goes with it, and instead made up a LIE that completely... disregards the below verses it is given with...


2 Tim 2:17-20
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
(KJV)

Furthermore, Paul would not have given that command for those to "depart from iniquity" in that 19th verse if they could not fall to iniquity in the first place!

I have revealed myself from the OP all the way through this thread.

I did not make a lie, it is your misconstrued notion of the perseverance of the saints doctrine that is in plain view for all to see. I do not disagree that saints should depart from iniquity. You are bearing false witness about me.

You have revealed quite a bit about yourself in this thread. I will continue to pray for you.

 

[veteran]

I have revealed myself from the OP all the way through this thread.

I did not make a lie, it is your misconstrued notion of the perseverance of the saints doctrine that is in plain view for all to see. I do not disagree that saints should depart from iniquity. You are bearing false witness about me.

You have revealed quite a bit about yourself in this thread. I will continue to pray for you.

Yeah you made a LIE alright, when you chopped out that single verse and gave it a FALSE interpretation that is totally out of the context of the rest of verses Paul gave it with!

Don't pray for me, pray for yourself, asking The LORD forgiveness for butchering His Word of Truth just so you can abide by the doctrines of men!

 

[justaname]

Where exactly is the "lie" here and the false interpretation?

My Quote:
Lets look to the 2 Timothy 2:17-20, the part you did not highlight:
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Paul breaks his explanation abruptly with "nevertheless." This word means regardless of what was stated previous, this is explicit! The foundation of God is true, and this is the seal or assurance of the foundation, the Lord knows those who are His. This gives great confidence to the reader of the epistle!