The Doctrine of OSAS

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The Western Gentile Christian should not apply the Book of Hebrews to themselves ..... we have the gospel to the gentiles for that

What a crock. That book was written to the the Hebrews, but has universal application for all of GOD's people.

 

[veteran]

That is a loaded question.

Paul still had a choice as to whether he would respond favourably to God's "direct intervention."

Jesus directly intervened in the lives of the Pharisees performing supernatural works and yet they hardened their hearts to the truth.


Like I said earlier the denial of free will has its origin within pagan philosophy and such teachings as they apply to predestination were not accepted into church orthodoxy until Augustine in the Fourth Century.

The apostles, their students, and the students of their students all upheld the free agency of men. Choice mattered.



If Satan can convince people that they do not have a choice whereby their destinies are rooted in fatalism then people are deceived into passively waiting on God to do everything. This is one of the real dangers of Augustinian theology and its modern manifestation.

God has already done much and is still constantly working within people but this grace is ineffectual lest an individual freely chooses to cooperate with God.



Today we have a situation where instead of theologians preaching "repent and turn to God and do works worthy of repentance" (clearly taught in Acts) we have "confess and trust in God and He will do a work in you." While the latter may sound appealing and biblical in the sense that it upholds God as the prime energy source it is really a subtle deception purposed to induce passivity.

Passive faith does not strive nor is it single eyed. There are many such people who "rest" in the notion of being saved due to "trusting in a provision" apart from them having to do anything.

Jesus said that it is the DOERS of the will of the Father who will enter the kingdom and not the hearers only. When Jesus taught that we are to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow Him it is not implicated in any manner whatsoever that God is going to MAKE US do such things. Sure one can isolate a and proof text select passages to support such a notion but in doing so they ignore the whole counsel of God in order to tickle their own ears.

God is calling all men everywhere to repent and turn to Him wholeheartedly. God will empower those who receive Him in such a manner. Those who remain double-minded ought not think they will receive anything from God.

It's not... a loaded question. It is a very Biblical question.

If you want to hold to the idea that everyone written in God's Word used their own free will to come to believe, then you have to first disprove Apostle Paul's case.

Like our Lord Jesus revealed in Jonn 17, some of His are called and... chosen, from the foundation of the world, and He already... owned them before this world. That is how He can directly intervene in their lives to turn them into His service, even against... their own free will, just as He did with Saul (Apostle Paul) on the road to Damascus.

There's a lot more written in God's Word as to why that is, but you'll never get to it by just making a choice to follow groups that decided to heed some man they thought 'sounded' right. My advice is that you put it upon a shelf and don't make any rash decisions about it yet until further Bible study and prayer.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Calvinism and OSAS doctrine of men came out of misinterpretation of Scripture examples like Romans 8 thru 11, Ephesians 2, etc., by Paul about the subject of predestination.

There has always existed a group of God's elect servants on this earth, even in Old Testament times, and they were directly in God's service even back then with His hand directly upon them to do His Will, while the rest of Israel fell away and were rebellious by their own free will. It is no different for today in Christ's Church.

Those which are not just 'called' only, but also 'chosen' sent ones, CANNOT and WILL NOT be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ events for our near future (Matt.24:22-26). Just as God intervened directly with His chosen elect back in OT history, likewise it is that way today too.

But the rest of us believers MUST be tried using our 'own' free-will, and overcome through Christ Jesus. The difference is we can fall away to deception if we allow it when tried, but His elect chosen cannot fall away when they are tried.

I agree 100%.

It's not... a loaded question. It is a very Biblical question.

If you want to hold to the idea that everyone written in God's Word used their own free will to come to believe, then you have to first disprove Apostle Paul's case.

Like our Lord Jesus revealed in Jonn 17, some of His are called and... chosen, from the foundation of the world, and He already... owned them before this world. That is how He can directly intervene in their lives to turn them into His service, even against... their own free will, just as He did with Saul (Apostle Paul) on the road to Damascus.

There's a lot more written in God's Word as to why that is, but you'll never get to it by just making a choice to follow groups that decided to heed some man they thought 'sounded' right. My advice is that you put it upon a shelf and don't make any rash decisions about it yet until further Bible study and prayer.

Good advice.

 

[ScottAU]

It's not... a loaded question. It is a very Biblical question.

If you want to hold to the idea that everyone written in God's Word used their own free will to come to believe, then you have to first disprove Apostle Paul's case.

Like our Lord Jesus revealed in Jonn 17, some of His are called and... chosen, from the foundation of the world, and He already... owned them before this world. That is how He can directly intervene in their lives to turn them into His service, even against... their own free will, just as He did with Saul (Apostle Paul) on the road to Damascus.

There's a lot more written in God's Word as to why that is, but you'll never get to it by just making a choice to follow groups that decided to heed some man they thought 'sounded' right. My advice is that you put it upon a shelf and don't make any rash decisions about it yet until further Bible study and prayer.

Paul was not a robot.

Paul was a human being with the full capacity to choose vice or virtue.

Paul was confronted with a CHOICE on that road to Damascus. Would he continue to walk in religion or would he submit Himself to the will of God?



There can be no vice and virtue apart from the exercise of choice.

Forced compulsion is neither love nor rebellion but a result of cause and effect.

A lion is not sinning when it kills a zebra yet Cain sinned when he was angry at his brother. God told Cain that sin lay at the door but that he should rule over it. Cain had a choice as do we all.

 

[HammerStone]

Scott, this one is for you - not picking, I promise.

Why was Paul's choice, then, prefaced by the appearance of Jesus on the road to Damascus? I understand your argument to an extent, but I would merely point out that you're just delaying the inevitable, because Paul got preferential treatment at some point. It's almost as though if God hadn't woo'ed Paul enough, we wouldn't have the NT - and that seems to be a precarious position. I realize open theism (God has plan B, C, D, etc) attempts to somewhat address this, but surely God knew in striking Paul down on that Damascus Road that this persecutor would become the champion of that which he so ardently persecuted.

The free will of Paul is quite limited by a powerful revelation of God. God does not reveal his Son to every man in this way. Clearly His will overpowered Paul.

In the case of the Pharisees, for example, Jesus did not appear in this glorified state, nor were they struck literally blind.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You've been wrongly taught that the Book of Hebrews is ONLY for Israelites by birth. Not so Arnie.

The Heb.6 Message applies just as well to Gentile Christians as it does to believing Israelites.

Hebrews was absolutely written to religious Jews who needed Christ explained to them.
This is so utterly simple to see .... at least it is for me.

What a crock. That book was written to the the Hebrews, but has universal application for all of GOD's people.

See what I said to Veteran

 

[veteran]

Hebrews was absolutely written to religious Jews who needed Christ explained to them.
This is so utterly simple to see .... at least it is for me.


See what I said to Veteran

That's what you're being taught by Biblical illiterates. You might as well throw away the Four Gospel Books also, and all of The Old Testament. Might as well just write their own Bible to include only Paul's Epistles. That would look funny now wouldn't it, a Bible with nothing but Paul's Epistles.

 

[justaname]

This was not written to the apostles and speaks to the case of election:

1 Peter 1:1-1:2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

we also have from the same letter...

1 Peter 2:9-12
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.
12 Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation.

What does the HolySpirit reveal through Paul in regards to election?

Romans 9:14-21
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?”
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


People disregard the doctrine of election often, yet scripture directly and clearly says it is the Father who draws (John 6:44)
How can anyone say they have the "free will" to chose God? (Romans 3:11) The elect are all who come through salvation, not just a select group within the body of Christ.

This being written to the Ephesians gives insight to the doctrine of election.
Ephesians 1:1-7
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

To think Paul is referring to the apostles only in this section is preposterous.

Also we have Romans 8:26-31

26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?


The recipient of this letter is the Romans, not the Apostles. Yes we must take into account the entirety of scripture, not just skip the parts we don't like because it does not fulfill our doctrine derived from men of free will. All who are saved are called according to His purpose, because He has mercy on whom He desires.

 

[veteran]

This was not written to the apostles and speaks to the case of election:

1 Peter 1:1-1:2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

The King James version... which uses the idea of "elect" from Greek eklektos...

1 Pet 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)

That word "scattered" gives Peter's Message here a specific meaning. It is the Greek word 'diaspora' which means 'dispersion'. So is he talking about Gentile foreigners, or scattered Israelites among Gentiles? It's the latter. But the prophecy of The Gospel being sent also to the Gentiles (non-Israelites) is in this 1 Peter 1 chapter also. It is especially to the ten lost tribes of Israel dispersed among the Gentiles.

James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (diaspora) abroad, greeting.
(KJV)



Would Peter be saying the following to dispersed Israelites scattered among the Gentiles, or directly to Gentiles? He was speaking to Israelites scattered among the Gentiles.

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
(KJV)



So HOW do we explain this 1 Pet.2 Scripture section?...


1 Pet 2:9-12
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


The 10th verse in bold Peter quoted from the Book of Hosea (Hos.1:9-11).

The Hosea prophecy was specifically to... the ten tribed "house of Israel" under the tribe of Ephraim as head. Apostle Paul quoted that in Romans also to Gentile believers. It's because God scattered the ten tribes among the Gentiles and they became 'not My people' (Lo ami), and then when The Gospel was preached to them, they AND believing Gentiles together.... have become God's people (Ami, My people).

 

[justaname]

The King James version... which uses the idea of "elect" from Greek eklektos...

1 Pet 1:1-2
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(KJV)

That word "scattered" gives Peter's Message here a specific meaning. It is the Greek word 'diaspora' which means 'dispersion'. So is he talking about Gentile foreigners, or scattered Israelites among Gentiles? It's the latter. But the prophecy of The Gospel being sent also to the Gentiles (non-Israelites) is in this 1 Peter 1 chapter also. It is especially to the ten lost tribes of Israel dispersed among the Gentiles.

James 1:1
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered (diaspora) abroad, greeting.
(KJV)



Would Peter be saying the following to dispersed Israelites scattered among the Gentiles, or directly to Gentiles? He was speaking to Israelites scattered among the Gentiles.

12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
(KJV)



So HOW do we explain this 1 Pet.2 Scripture section?...


1 Pet 2:9-12
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him Who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


The 10th verse in bold Peter quoted from the Book of Hosea (Hos.1:9-11).

The Hosea prophecy was specifically to... the ten tribed "house of Israel" under the tribe of Ephraim as head. Apostle Paul quoted that in Romans also to Gentile believers. It's because God scattered the ten tribes among the Gentiles and they became 'not My people' (Lo ami), and then when The Gospel was preached to them, they AND believing Gentiles together.... have become God's people (Ami, My people).

As you admit Paul used this to refer to the Gentiles, so your point is moot. The point I make is all who go through the salvation process are elect.


And your response to Romans 9:15-16?

How about John 6:44?

 

[veteran]

As you admit Paul used this to refer to the Gentiles, so your point is moot. The point I make is all who go through the salvation process are elect.


And your response to Romans 9:15-16?

How about John 6:44?

Why is your heart hardened away from the Truth? I explained how the Book of Hosea was written to the ten tribed house of Israel under Ephraim. You just whisked... right over that like it didn't exist.

I really doubt now, that you've even ever read... that Book of Hosea, much less understand it!

When the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim) rebelled against God, their having fallen into idol worship, He brought the kings of Assyria upon them and removed them all... out of the holy land to the lands of Assyria and the Medes. God kept His promise of Deut.4 & 28 by doing that to them, for He warned how He would scatter them among the Gentiles and the Gentiles would rule over them.

In Hosea, God then calls the house of Israel (ten tribes) 'Lo Ami', which means, 'not My people'. Per Jer.3:8, He gave them a symbolic "bill of divorce".


God told His prophet Hosea to go take a harlot wife, then He named their children to symbolize the ten tribe's whoredoms against Him...

Hosea 1:6-11
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, "Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)

Hosea 1:8-9 is where both Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul quoted from. In 1 Pet.2:10 Peter was speaking to Israelites scattered among the Gentiles.

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted that Hosea section to believing Gentiles concerning Israel...

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people"; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul applied that Hosea Scripture to Gentiles also, not just Gentiles by themselves.

The reason is, because that Hosea passage is actually written about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in Hosea.

The way believing Gentiles become "sons of the living God" along with the "house of Israel" is by God having scattered the ten tribes of Israel among... the Gentiles, and when The Gospel went to scattered israel, believing Gentiles among them accepted It too, and BOTH together became Christ's Church.

Furthermore, if anyone doubts the history about the two houses of Israel being made separate by God, it is show right there in that Hosea 1:6-7 Scripture (and many others).

 

[justaname]

Why is your heart hardened away from the Truth? I explained how the Book of Hosea was written to the ten tribed house of Israel under Ephraim. You just whisked... right over that like it didn't exist.

I really doubt now, that you've even ever read... that Book of Hosea, much less understand it!

When the "house of Israel" (ten tribes under Ephraim) rebelled against God, their having fallen into idol worship, He brought the kings of Assyria upon them and removed them all... out of the holy land to the lands of Assyria and the Medes. God kept His promise of Deut.4 & 28 by doing that to them, for He warned how He would scatter them among the Gentiles and the Gentiles would rule over them.

In Hosea, God then calls the house of Israel (ten tribes) 'Lo Ami', which means, 'not My people'. Per Jer.3:8, He gave them a symbolic "bill of divorce".


God told His prophet Hosea to go take a harlot wife, then He named their children to symbolize the ten tribe's whoredoms against Him...

Hosea 1:6-11
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, "Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, "Call his name Loammi: for ye are not My people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
(KJV)

Hosea 1:8-9 is where both Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul quoted from. In 1 Pet.2:10 Peter was speaking to Israelites scattered among the Gentiles.

In Romans 9, Apostle Paul quoted that Hosea section to believing Gentiles concerning Israel...

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people"; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul applied that Hosea Scripture to Gentiles also, not just Gentiles by themselves.

The reason is, because that Hosea passage is actually written about the "house of Israel" (ten tribes) in Hosea.

The way believing Gentiles become "sons of the living God" along with the "house of Israel" is by God having scattered the ten tribes of Israel among... the Gentiles, and when The Gospel went to scattered israel, believing Gentiles among them accepted It too, and BOTH together became Christ's Church.

Furthermore, if anyone doubts the history about the two houses of Israel being made separate by God, it is show right there in that Hosea 1:6-7 Scripture (and many others).

Doubt what you like, I have read Hosea, and understand it well. Your arrogance sets the tone of your responses, or lack thereof. I pray the Spirit works on your puffed up attitude.

Again your point is moot and invalid within the context of election, which is the topic of your choosing. The fact is God has elected both Jews and Gentiles to be in one body that is Christ's, the mystery given through Paul and the other apostles by the will of God.

The way Gentiles become the "sons of the Living God" is by believing the gospel. Your notion fails in regards to areas like Japan, South America, and other regions where Jewish presence is practically void. Yes it is true the gospel went to the Jews first, but it is not because of the dispersal of the ten tribes all Gentiles came to believe, it is because the message was to be spread to the Gentiles directly also. (Galatians 2:7) This is why Paul is known as the apostle to the Gentiles.

Back to the topic at hand, and less to your pet topics...

Romans 9:15-16

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

God elects all who come to believe and I use scripture as the foundation of my premise. (John 6:44) From this premise I conclude God finishes what He starts, again using scripture as my foundation, (Philippians 1:6) being we are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10)

1 Thessalonians 1:4
4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

This passage clearly speaks to the election by God of the Thessalonians who believe.

 

[veteran]

Doubt what you like, I have read Hosea, and understand it well. Your arrogance sets the tone of your responses, or lack thereof. I pray the Spirit works on your puffed up attitude.

My attitude is definitely not a puffed up one. That's what YOUR attitude is. My attitude is 'amazement' at your Biblical ignorance. And you do NOT understand that Hosea Scripture either, so you can keep claiming you do, but God knows you don't know it, and I do too.

Again your point is moot and invalid within the context of election, which is the topic of your choosing. The fact is God has elected both Jews and Gentiles to be in one body that is Christ's, the mystery given through Paul and the other apostles by the will of God.

The way Gentiles become the "sons of the Living God" is by believing the gospel. Your notion fails in regards to areas like Japan, South America, and other regions where Jewish presence is practically void. Yes it is true the gospel went to the Jews first, but it is not because of the dispersal of the ten tribes all Gentiles came to believe, it is because the message was to be spread to the Gentiles directly also. (Galatians 2:7) This is why Paul is known as the apostle to the Gentiles.

First of all, this point in Hosea is not mine! It is The LORD's!!!

And His servant Apostles Paul and Peter taught it just as I have taught it!

God sent His prophet Hosea to the "house of Israel" when they had gone into idol worship against Him, during the time of Jeroboam II, king of Israel over the ten tribed northern kingdom only!

The Book of Hosea was written specifically to... the ten tribed northern kingdom of Israel with Ephraim as its head tribe.

Hosea 1:4-7
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
(KJV)


At that time of Hosea, God had divided Israel into TWO KINGDOMS. The southern kingdom was under Judah at Jerusalem/Judea, called "the house of Judah" RIGHT THERE in Hosea 1:7.

But the northern kingdom of Israel, called "the house of Israel", was in the northern lands with its capital at Samaria, with kings from the northern ten tribes, like Jeroboam mentioned RIGHT HERE in Hosea 1:1...

Hosea 1:1
1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
(KJV)

The kings in blue were of the kingdom of Judah ("house of Judah"), and that king in red, Jeroboam, was king over Israel in the north ("house of Israel"). TWO SEPARATE KINGDOMS, SEPARATE KINGS, and they even held war against each other per the histories in 1 and 2nd Kings.

God scattered the ten tribes ("house of Israel") out of the holy land first. But the kingdom of Judah REMAINED for a while, just as God promised there through Hosea. The kingdom of Judah was later taken captive to Babylon, about 120 years AFTER the ten tribes had already been removed.

Both Paul and Peter taught the Hosea 1:9-10 Scripture, Peter to Israelites, and Paul to Gentiles, BOTH to those in Christ's Church!!!

Or maybe your on the same false doctrines of Dispensationalism that some others here are???

Romans 9:15-16

15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

God elects all who come to believe and I use scripture as the foundation of my premise. (John 6:44) From this premise I conclude God finishes what He starts, again using scripture as my foundation, (Philippians 1:6) being we are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10)

1 Thessalonians 1:4
4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

This passage clearly speaks to the election by God of the Thessalonians who believe.

You can't even bring yourself to quote the PROPER Scripture which Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea to the Romans!!!

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people"; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
(KJV)

That's Apostle Paul quoting Hosea 1:9-10 to the Romans! Osee is Greek for Hosea!

But thanks for revealing yourself as a hater of God's Holy Writ. I'll keep that in mind the next time.

 

[justaname]

My attitude is definitely not a puffed up one. That's what YOUR attitude is. My attitude is 'amazement' at your Biblical ignorance. And you do NOT understand that Hosea Scripture either, so you can keep claiming you do, but God knows you don't know it, and I do too.


First of all, this point in Hosea is not mine! It is The LORD's!!!

And His servant Apostles Paul and Peter taught it just as I have taught it!

God sent His prophet Hosea to the "house of Israel" when they had gone into idol worship against Him, during the time of Jeroboam II, king of Israel over the ten tribed northern kingdom only!

The Book of Hosea was written specifically to... the ten tribed northern kingdom of Israel with Ephraim as its head tribe.

Hosea 1:4-7
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
(KJV)


At that time of Hosea, God had divided Israel into TWO KINGDOMS. The southern kingdom was under Judah at Jerusalem/Judea, called "the house of Judah" RIGHT THERE in Hosea 1:7.

But the northern kingdom of Israel, called "the house of Israel", was in the northern lands with its capital at Samaria, with kings from the northern ten tribes, like Jeroboam mentioned RIGHT HERE in Hosea 1:1...

Hosea 1:1
1 The word of the LORD that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
(KJV)

The kings in blue were of the kingdom of Judah ("house of Judah"), and that king in red, Jeroboam, was king over Israel in the north ("house of Israel"). TWO SEPARATE KINGDOMS, SEPARATE KINGS, and they even held war against each other per the histories in 1 and 2nd Kings.

God scattered the ten tribes ("house of Israel") out of the holy land first. But the kingdom of Judah REMAINED for a while, just as God promised there through Hosea. The kingdom of Judah was later taken captive to Babylon, about 120 years AFTER the ten tribes had already been removed.

Both Paul and Peter taught the Hosea 1:9-10 Scripture, Peter to Israelites, and Paul to Gentiles, BOTH to those in Christ's Church!!!

Or maybe your on the same false doctrines of Dispensationalism that some others here are???


You can't even bring yourself to quote the PROPER Scripture which Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea to the Romans!!!

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, "Ye are not My people"; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
(KJV)

That's Apostle Paul quoting Hosea 1:9-10 to the Romans! Osee is Greek for Hosea!

But thanks for revealing yourself as a hater of God's Holy Writ. I'll keep that in mind the next time.

We can see who has the attitude from the increase of font size, also from this statement, "First of all, this point in Hosea is not mine! It is The LORD's!!!"

The topic was election, then you decided to switch to the ten tribes and the book of Hosea. That topic is not relevant to the doctrine of election or the perseverance of the saints.

Now you falsely accuse me of hating God's writ? Perhaps you are angry I will not follow this rabbit trail and derailment tactic you are attempting to use. Now it seems like you are attempting to get this thread locked by staying off topic and insulting me. Be what it may, no one can disprove the truth in this doctrine nor the doctrine of election for that matter, and I have proven my case through scripture time and time again.

Wow is all I can say. I will continue to pray for you.

Addressed to all:

Currently I am writing a paper on the book of Ephesians 2:4-7 and was going over study material and came across this.
It speaks to the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and the doctrine of election. This is a commentary selection about Ephesians 2:6. I will bold the text I found most relevant and interesting.

6 The thought of believers being made alive with Christ is developed in v.6, where God’s action is more precisely described in terms of their being raised up and seated with Christ. In conscious dependence on the christological statement of 1:20, Paul uses two compound verbs commencing with the prefix ‘with’, ‘raised with’ (synēgeiren) and seated with (synekathisen), and these, qualified by the prepositional phrase in Christ Jesus (signifying in our union with Christ), indicate that what God did for Christ he did at the same time for believers. The inclusive nature of Christ’s resurrection and exaltation is thus underscored; it is not simply a case of believers accompanying Christ on a journey over the same terrain.
Here, as in Colossians 2:12; 3:1, the resurrection of believers with Christ has already taken place. It is sometimes suggested that this notion is at variance with the genuine Pauline letters, where the resurrection of believers remains a hope for the future (cf. Rom. 6:5–8; 2 Cor. 4:14; Phil. 3:11). But while the concept of the believers participation in the risen life of Christ finds clearer expression in Colossians and Ephesians than elsewhere, this is not to suggest that it is absent from the earlier epistles, or that someone else is responsible for the phraseology, so giving clearer expression to the apostles central thought than Paul himself could give! The earlier epistles presume the present experience of the resurrection life in Christ. Whether we regard the future tenses of Romans 6:5 and 8 as logical futures or real ones, it is clear that in vv. 11 and 13, where Paul bids his readers to present themselves as alive to God, he believes that they as Christians enjoy a new sort of life here and now. How can believers be expected to walk in newness of life (Rom. 6:4) or to behave as those who have been brought from death to life (v.13; cf. v.9) if they are still dead and buried with no hope of resurrection before the last trumpet? The variations in terminology are less significant for the question of the authorship of Ephesians (and Colossians) than for their distinctive emphases in response to the different situations of the letters.


O’Brien, P. T. (1999). The letter to the Ephesians. The Pillar New Testament Commentary (p. 167). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

 

[veteran]

We can see who has the attitude from the increase of font size, also from this statement, "First of all, this point in Hosea is not mine! It is The LORD's!!!"

The topic was election, then you decided to switch to the ten tribes and the book of Hosea. That topic is not relevant to the doctrine of election or the perseverance of the saints.

Maybe in your fantasy mind there's no connection, but in my Bible there is, even though you and your false Jew brethren don't like it. I especially know they don't like it, because they hate true Judah also, and not only Christians like myself.

 

[justaname]

Maybe in your fantasy mind there's no connection, but in my Bible there is, even though you and your false Jew brethren don't like it. I especially know they don't like it, because they hate true Judah also, and not only Christians like myself.

Again...Wow...I will continue to pray for you.

 

[Dodo_David]

Just because you gave your life to Christ doesn't mean you a guaranteed salvation. Doing what Christ requires of you and living in a relationship with HIm does.

The above-quoted statement contradicts what the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-9:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

It also contradicts 1 John 5:13:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[The_highwayman]

So did Peter, who denied the Lord three times lose his salvation?

In Luke 22:30-32 Jesus said to Peter in red:
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The greek word "converted" in Vs. 32 is epistrephō and means:

1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
B) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
B) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back

Jesus himself told Peter he would fall away even before Peter betrayed him 3x. Peter did lose his faith/salvation and then Peter was "converted" again, in John 21.

Peter was "elected" by Jesus, then sifted,. denied him and was re-converted.

 

[veteran]

Again...Wow...I will continue to pray for you.

Pray for yourself, you're the one that's gonna' need it.

 

[justaname]

In Luke 22:30-32 Jesus said to Peter in red:
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

The greek word "converted" in Vs. 32 is epistrephō and means:

1) transitively
a) to turn to
1) to the worship of the true God
B) to cause to return, to bring back
1) to the love and obedience of God
2) to the love for the children
3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
a) to turn to one's self
B) to turn one's self about, turn back
c) to return, turn back, come back

Jesus himself told Peter he would fall away even before Peter betrayed him 3x. Peter did lose his faith/salvation and then Peter was "converted" again, in John 21.

Peter was "elected" by Jesus, then sifted,. denied him and was re-converted.

I see this being explained in verse 32
32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers.”

According to Jesus' prayer, Peter's faith never failed. The evidence returns to us that he was/is an apostle. We think of him as one who was/is saved.