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The Doctrine of OSAS

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justaname, May 12, 2013.

  1. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    It is irrelevant whether or not God predetermined anything, this is a straw man you are building. The fact is only those God is saving are saved. For God it can never be an on and off relationship because He always knows our final outcome.
     
  2. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Your example from Acts 8 is not relevant to Heb.6. There is no indication in Acts 8 that this person had fallen away in the same sense being described in Heb.6. Furthermore, you are inserting your own doctrine into Heb.6 in the so called " continuous" offense. The passage makes no such distinction. In fact, the author (probably Paul), begins the subject by declaring that there is no need to re apply the foundation. The reason for this is found in the following verses, in which the point is that the foundation is laid only one time because the gift of life is given only one time and cannopt be repeated...the reason being is that if one should fall that far out of grace so as to lose the life in him (if that were possible), then the process of repentance unto life will not be repeated, as that kind of repentacne is not possible to be repeated.

    Don't forget..."if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation..." Heb. 6 is about becoming un-born again . This is the only way that one can lose his eternal life. We either have life or we don't. We don't jump in and out of the gift of life. He who has the Son HAS life. The repentance (of unbelief) that led to this state will not be repeated.

    The kind of repentance you are describing is not in getting salvation back after it had been lost.
     
  3. Arnie Manitoba

    Arnie Manitoba New Member

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    .

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    Some folks sure have a fragile religion.
     
    williemac likes this.
  4. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Simon was in a saved position yet fell from it, Peter said he perish - present tense, perishing having to do with being lost.
    But Peter commanded Simon to repent manin there was sin in Simon's life that was causing him to be lost and that sin neded God's frogiveness.

    (Perish apōleia is translated perdition in Jn 17:2; 1 Tim 6:9; 2 Pet 3:7; it is translated destruction in Matt 7:13; Rom 9:22; 2 Pet 2:1; 2 Pet 3:16 and translated damnable in 2 Pet 2:1)

    In Rev 2 the church at Ephesus "hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

    Repentance is possible.


    The present tense in Heb 6 of 'curcify' and 'put' is not my doctrine but is grammar.

    The intended main purpose of the Hebrew epsitle is it is warning Jewish Christians about leaving Christianity, leaving Christ's NT and returning back to the law of Moses.

    Warnings:

    Heb 2:1,2,3
    Heb 3:12
    Heb 4:1,2,3

    In Heb 5:12-14 these Christian Jews had not been growing as the Christians they should have been, they should be teachers of Christ's gospel but they needed someone to teach them. They should have had the foundations of Christ's NT down pat, but they did not, Heb 6:1,2
    And in Heb 6:4 he warns them, as Christians, about falling away.


    "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation"

    As long as he remains "in Christ" and does not fall away from Christ. So those Jewish Christians would fall way from Christ by leaving His NT gospel returning to the law of Moses. Note in Paul's Galatian epistle that those Galatians thought going back to the law of Moses and keeping circumcison would save them. Paul twice tells them they quit "obeying the truth" for leaving the NT gospel, they were "removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" and were "fallen from grace, Gal 5:4.
     
  5. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    The various comments here will not help the original Poster.
    The simple fact is "once Saved, always saved"!
    Nobody can meet the standards of God, as Satan knew in Eden.
    Why strain at the fact and security of YOUR own personal Salvation? It is secure!
    Many quotes here do not differentiate between what was said for the Jews; and what is meant for Christ's Body! Unless that is cleared in the mind and in study, the confusion here expressed will always be with you/people!
    When coming to Christ, and His Saving Grace in truth; one is "sealed in Heaven". That cannot be recinded!
    The Love of God in Christ is secure; otherwise everybody would lose their Salvation!!!!
    What is not certain, is how a person is after they have met Christ Jesus "at the Bema Judgement"!
    What is clear from Paul's teaching is that one does not lose one's Salvation status; but many will lose rewards!
    Floyd.
     
  6. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    Jude 1:21 Jude commanded "Keep yourselves in the love of God". The implication of the imperative is that one can fall out of the love of God.

    Paul taught one can be lost, 1 Cor 10:12, that he himself can be a castaway. 1 Cor 9:27
     
  7. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    The exhortation to "keep in the love of God" is not the same as loss of Salvation! Your implication is (IMO) wrong.
    As stated, Salvation is secure, as it is not conditional on us, but our Lord's "worthiness"!
    Regards.
    Floyd.

    As you know, the Corinthians were particularly corrupt in all ways prior to the Gospel teachings and conversions. Their extreme's were a real concern for Paul etc. The context is Jewish as ref. to chp.10; and leads to the subject of idolatry .What Paul is saying in 9:27 is by example he would be a "castaway"; not condemned, but a reject as regards his ministry; it would become ineffective due to sin! He goes on to say in 10:20-21 that it cannot be both ways; serve God and Satan!
    Your recent comments state that without perfection a person is lost! As mentioned before, That would mean all people are lost!!!
    Christ Jesus our Lord was/is the only worthy one, His Sacrifice was "once for all". When (not if) a person fails; "He is faithful and just to forgive" etc.
    That provision would not be there if all was lost!!
    Regards.
    Floyd.
     
  8. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Excellent comments. Thank you for your input.
     
  9. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    THe Christian cannot be OUTSIDE of God's love and be saved.

    Those that bleive in the man made doctrine of eternal security try to use Rom 8:38,39 as a "proof text" of theirs. Verse 39 says "Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

    So they are equating being in God's love with salvation > nothing can separate you from God's love, that is, nothing can separate you from salvation. So if being in God's love is not salvation, then what is the Eternal Securists point of Rom 8:38,39?

    Note verse 39 says that the love of God is "in Christ Jesus". Therefore if one does not have God's love he therefore is NOT in Christ. Being IN CHRIST is the only place salvation can be found. So salvation is not possible separate from God's love/OUTSIDE of Christ.


    There are two sides to salvation:

    1) God's faithfulness to man
    2) Man's faithfulness to God


    Eternal Securists are careful to pull out of context just the verses that speak about God's faithfulness to man and wrongly claim that God's faithfulness is because of "eternal security" yet they purposely ignore the verses that speak that man must be faithful to God. No verse says God will remain faithful to those that become unfaithful to Him.

    If I had a nickel for everytime Jn 10:28 has been pulled out of context by the Eternal Securists (ES). The ES says, "see the verses says "neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand".

    One may ask "why does God not let any man pluck them out of HIs hand"

    The ES is quick to respond "eternal security" and thereby adds and forces that into the text.


    Yet verse 27 tells us "who" God holds in HIs hand and "why" God does not let them be plucked out of His hand and it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the man-made doctrine of eternal security.

    Verse 27 Jesus says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;"

    Jesus said MY sheep. So the qualification to be one of Christ's sheep and be held in God's hand is "hearing" and "following" Christ.
    1) both verbs hear and follow are Greek present tense denoting an ongoing, sustain action, not something one does just once or sporadically
    2) people hear and follow by choice, therefore one can quit hearing and following by choice.

    So those that God holds in HIs hand that cannot be plucked out are Christ's sheep, the ones that are faithful in their hearing and following Christ. Yet one can quit being faithful inhishearing and following and remive himslef from God's hand. Again, nowhere does the any context say God will be faithful to those that become unfaithful to HIm.


    So we have both sides of the salvation equation: (1) man's faithfulness to God in his hearing and following Christ and (2) God's faithfulness to those who remain faithful in hearing and following Christ.

    God's faithfulness is in no way unconditional...God will not remain unconditionally faithful to those who become unfaithful to Christ in their hearing and following.


    Another example is Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

    The ES pulls this verse out of context and claim God will performs this work unconditionally because of eternal security.

    Yet verse 5 says "For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now"

    They had remained faithful ih the gospel from the first day until now, so God is faithful to continue to perform that good work in them.

    So again we have both sides of the equation:

    Man's faithfulness in remaining in the gospel
    God's faithfulnness in performing that good work in them


    As long as they remained in the gospel Paul was confident God would perfom that good work. Had they fallen away, outside the gospel God would not have continued that good work unconditionally.


    Those in Galatia had fallen away from the gospel, Gal 1:6 and that unfaithfulness led to their being "fallen from grace" Gal 5:4

    ----------------------

    1 Cor 9:27 castaway is a condemned position Paul could fall into. No reason to "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection" if falling away into condemnation is not possible.

    Coffman Commentary aptly describes what be a castaway is about: (my emp)


    As Foy E. Wallace, Jr., said: "The translators (in this place) were evidently attempting to circumvent the possibility of apostasy."[22] There is no excuse for rendering the word here [@adokimos] as either "rejected" (English Revised Version (1885)) or "disqualified" (RSV). It means "reprobate" and is so translated elsewhere in the New Testament (Romans 1:28; 2 Corinthians 13:5,6,7; 2Tim.3:8; Titus 1:16). It is thus crystal clear that the apostle Paul, even after the world-shaking ministry of the word of God which characterized his life, considered it possible that he himself could become reprobate and lose the eternal reward. It was for the purpose of avoiding that possibility that he buffeted his body, walked in the strictest discipline, and devoted every possible effort to the service of the Lord. His example should put an end to all thoughts of "having it made" as a Christian and being certain to win eternal life apart from the most faithful continuance in God's service.

    We must therefore refuse interpretations of this passage such as that of Morris, who said, "Paul's fear was not that he might lose his salvation, but that he might lose his crown through failing to satisfy his Lord."[23] Clearly it was such a view as this that led to the mistranslation of 1 Corinthians 9:27; but the truth is available and clear enough for all who desire to know it.

    The hope of eternal life is not sealed in a single glorious moment in one's experience of conversion; but it is a lifelong fidelity to the risen Lord, the running of life's race all the way to the finish line. As DeHoff wrote:

    Not until every thought and imagination of man's heart is brought into subjection is his conversion complete. In this sense, conversion goes on as long as we live; and we are finally free from sin only when the day dawns and the shadows flee away, and we stand justified in the presence of God with the redeemed of all ages.[24]

    Farrar's analysis of this verse is as follows:

    The word "reprobate" here rendered "a castaway" (KJV) is a metaphor derived from the testing of metals, and the casting aside of those which are spurious. That Paul should see the necessity for such serious and unceasing effort shows how little he believed in saintly works of "supererogation, over and above what is commanded." "When the cedar of Lebanon trembles, what shall the reed by the brookside do?"[25]
    It might be added that this passage also shows how little Paul believed any such doctrine as the "final perseverance of the saints," called also "the impossibility of apostasy."


    [22] Foy E. Wallace, Jr., A Review of the New Versions (Fort Worth, Texas: The Foy E. Wallace Jr., Publications, 1973), p. 435.
    [23] Leon Morris, op. cit., p. 140
    [24] George W. DeHoff, op. cit., p. 78.
    [25] F. W. Farrar, The Pulpit Commentary (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1950), Vol. 19, p. 291.
     
  10. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    OTB: as said previously; you do not understand!
    Floyd.
     
  11. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

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    How can you keep telling me I am wrong, I do not understand yet cannot point out where I am wrong?
     
  12. Floyd

    Floyd Active Member

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    Don't you see? That's what you are doing!
    Floyd.
     
  13. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Since this topic seems to be bleeding through the threads I wanted to bump it...

    To add fresh insight I will affirm I do not like the language or wording of OSAS but I am in greater agreements of the perseverance of the Saints doctrine.

    All of this coincides directly with scripture as it is written
     
  14. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    Well, I believe in the blessed assurance that every Disciple of Christ has...
    But I also believe that a Disciple of Christ will be obedient to Him.
    Someone who thinks that they can go ahead and deliberately sin and still be saved is just kidding themselves...salvation is not a license to sin.
     
  15. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Scripture clearly states that once we believe we have eternal life. There is no way around this. If you are truly saved, born again, then you are going home.

    John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

    John 4:13-14 NIV Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

    John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    John 5:39-43 NIV You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

    John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

    John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

    John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

    John 10:28-30 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

    John 17:1-3 NIV After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

    Rom 5:21 NIV so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Rom 6:22-23 NIV But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

    2 Thess 2:16-17 NIV May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

    1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

    Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

    Tit 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

    Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

    Heb 9:15 NIV For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

    1 John 1:1-4 NIV That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

    1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

    1 John 5:20 NIV We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
     
  16. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I would submit firstly, that Phil 1:6 is not speaking of sanctification in the believers life. You asked at what point would salvation be lost. I submit that it can be lost when one rejects Christ.
     
  17. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I would submit that it doesn't when the Scriptures are taken in context.
     
  18. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Nonbelievers reject Christ. John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."
     
  19. Barrd

    Barrd His Humble Servant

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    What do you think it means to put your faith in Jesus Christ?
    Doesn't it mean that you believe what He says?
    Doesn't it mean that you love HIm?
    And, doesn't He tell us that if we love Him, we will also obey His commands?
     
  20. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    It means to trust in Him, and what He did on the cross for you. Believe in the resurrection, and admit that you're a sinner. Your works will not keep you saved Barrd.

    John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

    1 Cor 1:8-9 NIV He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.

    2 Cor 1:9-10 NIV / 2 Cor 3:12 NIV Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,

    2 Tim 2:13 NIV if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

    Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

    Heb 7:23-25 NIV Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

    Heb 12:22-24 NIV But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

    Heb 13:5 NIV Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”

    1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

    Jude 1:1 NIV Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:

    Jude 1:24-25 NIV To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
     
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