The Doctrine of OSAS

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ATP

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The Barrd said:
You bunny hopped all around that olive tree, without once touching the verses in question...

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


Do you not see that it is possible for you to also be cut off?
If you do not wish that tragedy to befall even you, ATP, you also must continue in His goodness.

This isn't rocket science :rolleyes:
There are two types of people spoken of in those verses, believing Gentiles and unbelieving Jews. This is way above your head Barrd.

Butch5 said:
That doesn't address what I said.
Please explain Butch. Show me where God says He throws His children into the lake of fire.
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
There are two types of people spoken of in those verses, believing Gentiles and unbelieving Jews. This is way above your head Barrd.


Please explain Butch. Show me where God says He throws His children into the lake of fire.
There's really not much point. As I've said before, the arguments for OSAS are either out of context or fallacious. The Scriptures don't teach OSAS. However, in my post I spoke of a believer who rejects Christ as one who can be lost.
 

mjrhealth

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Now salvation based on Human reasoning , no man would be saved. But a friend of mine, told me of a vision her husban had, where he was tken into a court room , and was told, you don have to be here, and walked him out the other side, to a party where everyone was rejoicing. Why, because He believs. Now if you knew this man you would never believe he could be saved. But than what man can see another mas heart, who here knows the heart and mind of God, all I see is people who know the bible and human reasoning.

My firend by the way, was told that her name is written in the Lambs book of life and the page will never be torn out.

In all His Love
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
There's really not much point. As I've said before, the arguments for OSAS are either out of context or fallacious. The Scriptures don't teach OSAS. However, in my post I spoke of a believer who rejects Christ as one who can be lost.
So God lied. Once you believe you do not have eternal life?

John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 4:13-14 NIV Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:39-43 NIV You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 10:28-30 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

John 17:1-3 NIV After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Rom 5:21 NIV so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:22-23 NIV But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thess 2:16-17 NIV May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Tit 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:15 NIV For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

1 John 1:1-4 NIV That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

1 John 5:20 NIV We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
 

mjrhealth

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So she decides to have an affair....
According to OSAS, this is no problem. She will still go to heaven anyway.
Suppose she decides to drown her children...it has happened. No problem. According to OSAS, she will still go to heaven.
Oh, she might lose a crown or two...but she will go to heaven.

One of you OSASers told me not long ago that a man could rape his 7 year old stepson....and he would still go to heaven. He could go on a killing spree...no problem, he's already been forgiven for every murder he commits. If he dies before he repents, he'll be in heaven.

This is a disgusting lie, and I honestly do not see how anyone could believe it.
Isnt that "deliberate sin" as you put it. If one turns ones back on God and rejects Him, well than that is his choice, it was him who rejeted God not the other way round.

In All His Love
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
So God lied. Once you believe you do not have eternal life?

John 3:14-16 NIV Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:36 NIV "Whoever puts his faith in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see that life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 4:13-14 NIV Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 5:24 NIV “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 5:39-43 NIV You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

John 6:40 NIV For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

John 6:54 NIV Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

John 10:28-30 NIV I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

John 17:1-3 NIV After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Acts 13:46-48 NIV Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' " 48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Rom 5:21 NIV so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:22-23 NIV But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Thess 2:16-17 NIV May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, 17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.

1 Tim 1:15-16 NIV Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

Tit 1:1-3 NIV Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness— 2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, 3and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the preaching entrusted to me by the command of God our Savior,

Tit 3:7 NIV so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Heb 9:12 NIV He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 9:15 NIV For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

1 John 1:1-4 NIV That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4We write this to make our joy complete.

1 John 5:9-14 NIV We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.

1 John 5:20 NIV We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
If you look at those passages closely and in context rather than elephant hurling, a fallacy, you'd see that they don't teach OSAS. That they have to be taken from their context in an attempt to support the doctrine speaks volumes.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
However, in my post I spoke of a believer who rejects Christ as one who can be lost.
Scripture actually defines nonbelievers as "lost"....

Matt 10:5-7 NIV These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:4-7 NIV “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
 

Butch5

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mjrhealth said:
Now salvation based on Human reasoning , no man would be saved. But a friend of mine, told me of a vision her husban had, where he was tken into a court room , and was told, you don have to be here, and walked him out the other side, to a party where everyone was rejoicing. Why, because He believs. Now if you knew this man you would never believe he could be saved. But than what man can see another mas heart, who here knows the heart and mind of God, all I see is people who know the bible and human reasoning.

My firend by the way, was told that her name is written in the Lambs book of life and the page will never be torn out.

In all His Love
a persons dream cannot be qualified. It's subjective.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
If you look at those passages closely and in context rather than elephant hurling, a fallacy, you'd see that they don't teach OSAS. That they have to be taken from their context in an attempt to support the doctrine speaks volumes.
John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

:rolleyes:
 

justaname

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Butch5 said:
Would you like me to post the passage you already posted. If you assert that Phil 1:6 is a about a persons sanctification you need to show how. If you can make an assertion, why can't I?

To answer your question, they believed.
Still attempting to shift the burden of proof...lol.

You can have your opinion...
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
Scripture actually defines nonbelievers as "lost"....

Matt 10:5-7 NIV These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’

Matt 18:12-14 NIV “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:4-7 NIV “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Luke 19:9-10 NIV Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

1 Pet 2:24-25 NIV “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25For “you were like sheep going astray,” but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
I'm not talking about a non believer.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
I'm not talking about a non believer.
Those scriptures are about the lost that haven't found salvation yet.

Butch5 said:
Do believers die?
They do. Eternal life is given to us at the first resurrection. What must you do to obtain eternal life? BELIEVE.
 

Butch5

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justaname said:
Still attempting to shift the burden of proof...lol.

You can have your opinion...
I'm not shifting the burden of proof. Who was the first to mention Phil 1:6 you or I? I believe it was you. You claimed it was about a person's sanctification. What makes your claim fact? You didn't explain how it supported your claim, you just said it did.
 

Butch5

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ATP said:
Those scriptures are about the lost that haven't found salvation yet.


They do. Eternal life is given to us at the first resurrection. What must you do to obtain eternal life? BELIEVE.
My post was about a believer who rejects Christ.

Nothing here says it can't be lost.
 

ATP

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Butch5 said:
My post was about a believer who rejects Christ.

Nothing here says it can't be lost.
How can a believer reject Christ if justification only comes once?