The Doctrine of OSAS

[Butch5]

How can a believer turn away 10 years from now, or even 50 years. The truth is in us forever. Scripture says we are firm and secure in Him.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

Heb 6:16-19 NIV Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18 God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,

How many times should I repeat this? The promise is to the one who "is believing". There is no promise to the one who "used" to believe/

Jesus stated it plainly. Some believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. They are the word of God the Father himself. Why do you guys continue to argue with God's words?

 

[Butch5]

Perhaps a big "S" tattooed on the back by God for those being saved would be better proof for you?

Well until He decides to do that, we do have the scriptures...

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

It seems you are asking the doctrine to do something it is not meant to do...tell you who is being saved.

The doctrine cannot do anything. Like ATP you keep posting passages about believers. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that a believer will not be saved. Again, the issue is the one who stops believing. You guys continue to avoid this subject.We know that people can change their minds because Jesus tells us it happens. He said, 'some believe for a while and in time of temptation turn away'. So, they believed but then later turned away, thus a change of mind.

 

[justaname]

On this point I agree, if you want to know the bible read the bible, if you want to know Jesus go to Him, no college on this earth can give you revelation only God can.With God you learn from experience, the school of hard knocks, where your life becomes your training ground, you cant know Him any other way. LEst you become like those

Ever learning and never coming into the truth.

In all His Love

Who says you can't do both?

 

[justaname]

And He alslo said they are like wolves in sheep clothing, you have to look past the outside, men who clean the outside of the cup, yet on the inside...

What did Jesus say,

I am the way the truth and the life..

Run to Him if you want to know Him, no certificates just a brilliant loving teacher.

In all His Love

Are you stating the teachers God ordained are wolves?
Is this your teaching?

 

[justaname]

The doctrine cannot do anything. Like ATP you keep posting passages about believers. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that a believer will not be saved. Again, the issue is the one who stops believing. You guys continue to avoid this subject.We know that people can change their minds because Jesus tells us it happens. He said, 'some believe for a while and in time of temptation turn away'. So, they believed but then later turned away, thus a change of mind.

The doctrine is not supposed to "do" anything. What you are speaking about is non-believers. They will not be saved.

These that Jesus speaks of evidently did not have saving faith. Never from God's perspective were they ever to be saved. Honestly I am uncertain what you are getting at here. You must have a false notion of the doctrine.

 

[ATP]

Straw man

<_< You're making me giggle.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

 

[ATP]

The doctrine cannot do anything. Like ATP you keep posting passages about believers. I don't believe anyone here is arguing that a believer will not be saved. Again, the issue is the one who stops believing. You guys continue to avoid this subject.We know that people can change their minds because Jesus tells us it happens. He said, 'some believe for a while and in time of temptation turn away'. So, they believed but then later turned away, thus a change of mind.

People who turn away never had the root of salvation Butch. Do you understand the difference.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

 

[Barrd]

As a veteran of Yahoo chat...I have lost count of the numbers of atheists I've spoken with who were once Christians. They will tell you that they were very devout, very devoted Christians. Now, I'm not inclined to argue with them about whether they believed or not...if they tell me that they "used to" believe in it, but now they don't, for whatever reason, why should I doubt their word?
Some of them left because they want to do things that are against God's law...
Some left because they came to the conclusion that their religion clashed with what they had learned in their science classes....

In any case, they used to believe....and for whatever reason, they changed their mind.

 

[ATP]

As a veteran of Yahoo chat...I have lost count of the numbers of atheists I've spoken with who were once Christians. They will tell you that they were very devout, very devoted Christians. Now, I'm not inclined to argue with them about whether they believed or not...if they tell me that they "used to" believe in it, but now they don't, for whatever reason, why should I doubt their word?
Some of them left because they want to do things that are against God's law...
Some left because they came to the conclusion that their religion clashed with what they had learned in their science classes....

In any case, they used to believe....and for whatever reason, they changed their mind.

Well, that's the deception. Any yahoo off the street can say they are christian and believe.

 

[Barrd]

Are you stating the teachers God ordained are wolves?
Is this your teaching?

Of course, God does not ordain wolves to teach His Word.
But that doesn't mean that some have not crept in among the sheep....how else do you think the church has been torn into so many little fragments?

 

[Butch5]

<_< You're making me giggle.

Heb 9:12 NLT With his own blood--not the blood of goats and calves--he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever.

ATP, why won't you address the issue? This is what I was talking about when we were discussing this in pm's. The issue is not what Christ did, it's not what God did, it's what does. We see that people change their minds every day about all kinds of things. There is no reason to believe that people don't change their minds about following Christ. The way you guys post the forever passages it would seem that you are implying that once a person become a Christian God removes from them their will to choose, at least in this area. However, we know from Scripture that that is not the case. We have Jesus words from the Father Himself that indicate that people change their minds.

 

[ATP]

The issue is not what Christ did,

That's precisely the issue. Do you understand what He did Butch.

 

[Butch5]

People who turn away never had the root of salvation Butch. Do you understand the difference.

Matt 13:21 NIV But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

I understand that that's an arbitrary statement. I can just as easily state, "yes they did". That's the problem with arbitrary statements they can easily be reversed. The real problem is that you purport to know the heart and mind of someone you don't even know. How could you possibly know someone else's heart? That argument has no basis.

 

[ATP]

I understand that that's an arbitrary statement. I can just as easily state, "yes they did". That's the problem with arbitrary statements they can easily be reversed. The real problem is that you purport to know the heart and mind of someone you don't even know. How could you possibly know someone else's heart? That argument has no basis.

Their actions follow brother. They will admit they no longer believe.

 

[Butch5]

That's precisely the issue. Do you understand what He did Butch.

No it's not. God promised salvation to those who believe. He didn't promise it to those who used to believe or those who pretend they believe or anyone else. And, the passages in John that you guys keep quoting are in the present tense. The one who "is believing". We know from Jesus words that that people who believe can change their minds thus the OSAS argument is refuted.

 

[Butch5]

Their actions follow brother. They will admit they no longer believe.

How do you continue to purpose to know the minds or people you don't know?

 

[ATP]

No it's not. God promised salvation to those who believe. He didn't promise it to those who used to believe or those who pretend they believe or anyone else. And, the passages in John that you guys keep quoting are in the present tense. The one who "is believing". We know from Jesus words that that people who believe can change their minds thus the OSAS argument is refuted.

Yes and believing only comes once. This is our justification.

How do you continue to purpose to know the minds or people you don't know?

What does it mean to have the root of salvation?

 

[Butch5]

To those who read but don't post, note the lack of any cogent argument for the support of OSAS.

 

[ATP]

To those who read but don't post, note the lack of any cogent argument for the support of OSAS.

Can you answer the post you ignored please.

That's precisely the issue. Do you understand what He did Butch.

 

[ATP]

Jesus died for all sins. Christianity 101.