The Doctrine of OSAS

[justaname]

Those are my favorite verses in the entire Bible, Justaname.
If more OSASers would show that love, I might be more impressed.

Why is it that so many seem to be so arrogant? Is it because they are so sure of their salvation that they don't think they need to consider anyone else's feelings?
If this is the fruit OSAS produces, I don't want it.

Honestly this can not be answered. The people and experiences you have had are not like my own.

You are profiling and stereotyping here. I don't like to do that. I allow each individual to speak for themselves.

 

[rockytopva]

I take sides with The Barrd on this one...

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

It is my opinion with such doctrine comes the ego... And just a little of that stuff makes the whole lump bad!

 

[rockytopva]

Those are my favorite verses in the entire Bible, Justaname.
If more OSASers would show that love, I might be more impressed.

Why is it that so many seem to be so arrogant? Is it because they are so sure of their salvation that they don't think they need to consider anyone else's feelings?
If this is the fruit OSAS produces, I don't want it.

John Calvin, the author of such doctrine was one much puffed up with the ego!

"I beg you, shorten please these deliberations. It is clear that Calvin for his pleasure wishes to make me rot in this prison." - Michael Sevetus

And after toasting Servetus Calvin declares...

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

"Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone." - Excerpt from Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio, by John Calvin

It like... Wow! Where do we think Christianity came from... But the Jewish religion!

 

[justaname]

Yes, the WHOLE canon of Scripture. All of it. Every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
BOTH the "Blessed Assurance" verses...all wonderful, glorious verses, no doubt...
And also what you call the "negative passages".
You may not like them, but they are in there.
Now, I'm not exactly sure what an "Armenian" is....as I told ATP (and he hasn't gotten over it yet), I was just a little girl of 12 the first time I read the Bible through, cover to cover. (Okay, so I skipped through Leviticus, Numbers, and Dueteronomy...those three still bore me to this day). Jesus became my Hero...I became a devoted Christian at the age of 12. At that time, I had never heard the term "doctrine", and I probably wouldn't have been interested if I had. I didn't know about "exigesis" nor had I ever heard of any "church fathers". The only thing that was important to me was the story.
Nothing else mattered.

I will not say I've been perfect ever since...i wouldn't even believe me if I were to say such a thing. But I have read that Bible from cover to cover many, many, many times since those early days.
I am now about to turn 65.
IOW, I've been a Christian for over 50 years.
And I still come to Jesus with the open and trusting heart of that long ago little girl...

Yes and again my experience is different. I did not grow up in the Church. I have read and studied the Bible for several years now as an adult convert coming to the text without bias as I have no prior religion to rely on. Now I am currently enrolled in an Evangelical school gaining a bachelors degree in Biblical Studies. As long as God approves (which I believe He does) I am moving on to seminary. I am about to take four consecutive classes of Greek where upon completion I will receive my first degree.

As far as the school is concerned we are what would be considered conservative, meaning we are bible believing looking to a literal interpratation unless the literary style does not allow. We are not told what the text means, we are left to find that out on our own by gaining guidance through the Holy Spirit and searching through the various scholars through the times. Through understanding the original text (Greek or Hebrew) and its context, the scholars are able to exegete the meaning behind the text. By interpreting what the scholars say, reflecting and praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can come to an understanding of what the text meant to the people it was written to and how it applies to us today.

I am learning continually and am growing in the faith daily.

To the doctrine...perseverance of the saints.

Perhaps you should look to what it actually observes in the scriptures and presents. It seems to me you have been taught a twisted version of the doctrine, and have debated some who hold to a twisted view themselves.

I could direct you to some solid websites if you desire.

 

[rockytopva]

I had dated a Baptist girl for a time within the last few years. Problems arose as her idea of a date became going out and seeing a movie, drinks, and sex. I questioned her on this and she angrily replied... Are you trying to question my salvation?

 

[justaname]

John Calvin, the author of such doctrine was one much puffed up with the ego!

"I beg you, shorten please these deliberations. It is clear that Calvin for his pleasure wishes to make me rot in this prison." - Michael Sevetus

And after toasting Servetus Calvin declares...

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin

"Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone." - Excerpt from Ad Quaelstiones et Objecta Juaei Cuiusdam Responsio, by John Calvin

It like... Wow! Where do we think Christianity came from... But the Jewish religion!

Well this is incorrect Calvin is not the author of the doctrine...

For an accurate and scholarly look at the history of the doctrine...

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a133.htm

 

[rockytopva]

I use to have a book and media ministry at work. One guy wanted to get saved but he did not want to get it at my Pentecostal Holiness church. Well, a soul saved is a soul saved! So I looked up a brother that attended a Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimony movie playing and my friend goes up front to get saved. Problems...

1. They did not have an altar or altar rails and proceeded to take my friend to a back room
2. Tears were flowing down his cheek.. .Just a simple sinners prayer would have done the trick!
3. They prodeeded to talk all that OSAS stuff to my friend, in which I perceived as trying to talk him out of it!

I finally broke in and asked could we pray the sinners prayer and see him saved! It was really annoying to me that they tried cramming the OSAS stuff down someones throat who was obviously ready to receive Christ in his heart!

 

[Barrd]

Yes and again my experience is different. I did not grow up in the Church. I have read and studied the Bible for several years now as an adult convert coming to the text without bias as I have no prior religion to rely on. Now I am currently enrolled in an Evangelical school gaining a bachelors degree in Biblical Studies. As long as God approves (which I believe He does) I am moving on to seminary. I am about to take four consecutive classes of Greek where upon completion I will receive my first degree.

As far as the school is concerned we are what would be considered conservative, meaning we are bible believing looking to a literal interpratation unless the literary style does not allow. We are not told what the text means, we are left to find that out on our own by gaining guidance through the Holy Spirit and searching through the various scholars through the times. Through understanding the original text (Greek or Hebrew) and its context, the scholars are able to exegete the meaning behind the text. By interpreting what the scholars say, reflecting and praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can come to an understanding of what the text meant to the people it was written to and how it applies to us today.

I am learning continually and am growing in the faith daily.

To the doctrine...perseverance of the saints.

Perhaps you should look to what it actually observes in the scriptures and presents. It seems to me you have been taught a twisted version of the doctrine, and have debated some who hold to a twisted view themselves.

I could direct you to some solid websites if you desire.

I probably should mention that my parents were not very religious. I didn't exactly "grow up in the church". That Bible was a Christmas gift from my grandmother, who knew how much I loved to read. She was the only one who encouraged me.
When I opened that Bible, I had no prior religion to rely on.
No one taught me any doctrine, ever. Whatever I have, I got directly from the Source.
At His feet, I have learned humility. I am nothing without Jesus...and neither are you.
I think some folks tend to forget that...

 

[Barrd]

Yes and again my experience is different. I did not grow up in the Church. I have read and studied the Bible for several years now as an adult convert coming to the text without bias as I have no prior religion to rely on. Now I am currently enrolled in an Evangelical school gaining a bachelors degree in Biblical Studies. As long as God approves (which I believe He does) I am moving on to seminary. I am about to take four consecutive classes of Greek where upon completion I will receive my first degree.

As far as the school is concerned we are what would be considered conservative, meaning we are bible believing looking to a literal interpratation unless the literary style does not allow. We are not told what the text means, we are left to find that out on our own by gaining guidance through the Holy Spirit and searching through the various scholars through the times. Through understanding the original text (Greek or Hebrew) and its context, the scholars are able to exegete the meaning behind the text. By interpreting what the scholars say, reflecting and praying for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we can come to an understanding of what the text meant to the people it was written to and how it applies to us today.

I am learning continually and am growing in the faith daily.

To the doctrine...perseverance of the saints.

Perhaps you should look to what it actually observes in the scriptures and presents. It seems to me you have been taught a twisted version of the doctrine, and have debated some who hold to a twisted view themselves.

I could direct you to some solid websites if you desire.

You are learning from men.
Don't get me wrong...I certainly have nothing against education.
But tell me...who taught Peter? Or John?

And what about Paul's education? Didn't he learn at the feet of the great Gamaliel? And wasn't it that grand education of his that inspired him to consent to the murder of Stephen...and later to persecute the infant church?
Isn't that why Jesus had to knock him off his high horse on the road to Damascus?

Sure, I'll look at your websites. Perhaps you have a point...I've mainly heard this doctrine from some seriously rude and arrogant hot air balloons...
I'm not saying I'll ever concur with it...I do not believe Jesus ever taught such a thing...but I am willing to keep an open mind...

 

[Barrd]

I take sides with The Barrd on this one...

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? - 1 Corinthians 5:6

It is my opinion with such doctrine comes the ego... And just a little of that stuff makes the whole lump bad!

Exactly, Rocky. From what I've seen, this doctrine encourages those who believe in it to think too highly of themselves....
Of all people,l Christians ought to be the most humble. It was because of our filthy, disgusting sins that our Lord suffered.
How can we even think of the cross, without cringing in abject shame and humiliation?
OH....what am I, that the Lord should even notice me?

 

[Barrd]

I use to have a book and media ministry at work. One guy wanted to get saved but he did not want to get it at my Pentecostal Holiness church. Well, a soul saved is a soul saved! So I looked up a brother that attended a Baptist church. Well, they had a Franklin Graham testimony movie playing and my friend goes up front to get saved. Problems...

1. They did not have an altar or altar rails and proceeded to take my friend to a back room
2. Tears were flowing down his cheek.. .Just a simple sinners prayer would have done the trick!
3. They prodeeded to talk all that OSAS stuff to my friend, in which I perceived as trying to talk him out of it!

I finally broke in and asked could we pray the sinners prayer and see him saved! It was really annoying to me that they tried cramming the OSAS stuff down someones throat who was obviously ready to receive Christ in his heart!

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Barrd]

I had dated a Baptist girl for a time within the last few years. Problems arose as her idea of a date became going out and seeing a movie, drinks, and sex. I questioned her on this and she angrily replied... Are you trying to question my salvation?

But you don't understand, Rocky.
Since she's "saved" she can do whatever she wants....her fornication is "covered by the blood."
Yes, I've actually heard this one...

 

[rockytopva]

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

If someone comes to me saying their salvation is secure, and I can discern a Christ-like spirit... Well, I will normally praise along with them... I will not contradict what they are saying

If someone comes to me saying their salvation is secure, and I cannot discern a Christ-like spirit... Well, we have problems.

 

[justaname]

You are learning from men.
Don't get me wrong...I certainly have nothing against education.
But tell me...who taught Peter? Or John?

And what about Paul's education? Didn't he learn at the feet of the great Gamaliel? And wasn't it that grand education of his that inspired him to consent to the murder of Stephen...and later to persecute the infant church?
Isn't that why Jesus had to knock him off his high horse on the road to Damascus?

Sure, I'll look at your websites. Perhaps you have a point...I've mainly heard this doctrine from some seriously rude and arrogant hot air balloons...
I'm not saying I'll ever concur with it...I do not believe Jesus ever taught such a thing...but I am willing to keep an open mind...

Well technically you are learning from men also...you never walked with God incarnate...

Even if you read only the red letters, it is still an account of what was said. As it is your understanding of Jesus' teachings only extend as far as your personal limited understanding. This is why I find it better to gain insight from other Spirit led and filled believers to gain a broader perspective. With this you must be aware it is kinda like eating fish, you have to spit out the bones while consuming what is nourishing. Honestly this is a more humble and biblical approach. Humble because I do not assert that I need no other support that God has ordained and given. Biblical because God has given some as teachers/pastors for the edification of the church and the building up of the saints.

Let me get back with you for a website or two that will direct more information on the doctrine. I did post a site above that speaks to the history and gives great insight to the development of the doctrine.

My personal stance compares to Augustine's.

Shalom! May God's peace and understanding be upon you!

In the Love and service of Christ!

http://www.monergism.com/topics/perseverance-saints

 

[ATP]

There is not one passage that says God throws His children into the lake of fire. Zero.

 

[Barrd]

Well technically you are learning from men also...you never walked with God incarnate...

Even if you read only the red letters, it is still an account of what was said. As it is your understanding of Jesus' teachings only extend as far as your personal limited understanding. This is why I find it better to gain insight from other Spirit led and filled believers to gain a broader perspective. With this you must be aware it is kinda like eating fish, you have to spit out the bones while consuming what is nourishing. Honestly this is a more humble and biblical approach. Humble because I do not assert that I need no other support that God has ordained and given. Biblical because God has given some as teachers/pastors for the edification of the church and the building up of the saints.

Let me get back with you for a website or two that will direct more information on the doctrine. I did post a site above that speaks to the history and gives great insight to the development of the doctrine.

My personal stance compares to Augustine's.

Shalom! May God's peace and understanding be upon you!

In the Love and service of Christ!

I suppose you could say that I learned from men...the men who were inspired by God to write the various books of the Bible.
And as far as having physically walked with the Incarnate Lord, you're right...I have not done that. No one alive today has done that.
However, spiritually walking with the Lord is something quite different.

And I don't think anyone can honestly say that their understanding of Jesus' teachings extend any further than their own personal understanding...no matter how many degrees they can frame and hang on the wall.

Again, education can be a wonderful thing. But do remember....Paul was a highly educated man...a marvel of his people. Unfortunately, what he had learned at the feet of one of the greatest Rabbis in all of Judaism...was not true.

Obviously, since those early days I have had other experiences. It's not as if I grew up in a vacuum. For awhile I was a church secretary for a Baptist church in Florida. There was a school...and one of the things I did was to help write lessons. I also dee jayed at their radio station...a much more fun job. See, I was widowed quite young, and left with a brood to raise by myself (seven kids, and the baby still in diapers). We did not have life insurance, and I had married right out of high school. Those first few years were not easy...I worked like a slave, from dawn till dusk, at anything I could get...but I did manage to put myself through two years of Jr. College and earn an Associate's Degree in legal studies. Life got easier after that.

There are a great many bony fish out there...do be careful not to choke on those bones!
Don't forget those noble Bereans...always remember to search the scriptures to see if these things are so.

Augustine....yes, he was quite a fascinating man. But...did he teach OSAS? I'm not so sure. I do know he had quite a bit to say about humility.
But my favorite quote of his, I think, is very appropriate to this discussion:
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe. It is yourself."--St. Augustine

 

[mjrhealth]

You are learning from men.
Don't get me wrong...I certainly have nothing against education.
But tell me...who taught Peter? Or John?

And what about Paul's education? Didn't he learn at the feet of the great Gamaliel? And wasn't it that grand education of his that inspired him to consent to the murder of Stephen...and later to persecute the infant church?
Isn't that why Jesus had to knock him off his high horse on the road to Damascus?

Sure, I'll look at your websites. Perhaps you have a point...I've mainly heard this doctrine from some seriously rude and arrogant hot air balloons...
I'm not saying I'll ever concur with it...I do not believe Jesus ever taught such a thing...but I am willing to keep an open mind.

On this point I agree, if you want to know the bible read the bible, if you want to know Jesus go to Him, no college on this earth can give you revelation only God can.With God you learn from experience, the school of hard knocks, where your life becomes your training ground, you cant know Him any other way. LEst you become like those

Ever learning and never coming into the truth.

In all His Love

 

[mjrhealth]

Biblical because God has given some as teachers/pastors for the edification of the church and the building up of the saints.

And He alslo said they are like wolves in sheep clothing, you have to look past the outside, men who clean the outside of the cup, yet on the inside...

What did Jesus say,

I am the way the truth and the life..

Run to Him if you want to know Him, no certificates just a brilliant loving teacher.

In all His Love

 

[ATP]

Luke 10:18-20 NIV He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

 

[Butch5]

There is not one passage that says God throws His children into the lake of fire. Zero.

Straw man